299 replies to this topic

[Kyone Akashi]

ShadowSpirit, on 29 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Seems more reasonable than what we have now. I can't help but agree this would be better than the current blanket of "invisibility."

Also, it will reward nice paintjobs by (hopefully) preventing your lancemates from mistaking you for an enemy!

ShadowSpirit, on 29 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

This should have been hashed out in closed beta. We dished (and dish) out money for things that are changing ... I guess I was a sucker?

Iie, not at all! We continue to see major investments in MWO, and even though occasionally the game may appear as if it would take a step back, it will make two steps forward again in the next couple patches. What I have seen since CB looks way too promising (and is way too fun!) to not acknowledge the talent and commitment of the developers.
Have patience - things will work out eventually. I for one remain confident that becoming a Founder was the right decision.

[ShadowSpirit]

Kyone Akashi, on 29 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Have patience - things will work out eventually. I for one remain confident that becoming a Founder was the right decision.

ECM is making it hard to enjoy the game. I really hope we get through this and the game is a huge success.

Good luck.

Dave <HoS>

[chaas]

These changes are a soft counter to a hard counter. I like that. I think it will make the AS7-D-DC ECM variant less efficient, while retaining the advantage of ... still being an Atlas.

I'm a little concerned with the idea that a PPC represents a counter to a souped up Raven or Cicada. I'm not really drinking that Kool-Aid. Ravens are awfully small targets and most ECM builds incorporate a larger engine, making them stupid-fast. Maybe I just have no confidence in my shooting, but in my experience the PPC fires like an autocannon. I've found it incredibly difficult to hit the fast-movers with autocannon fire, so you see where I'm coming from with this. Granted this is more of a personal problem than a global problem, and granted there are some incredible shooters out there who won't have this issue.

At any rate, this answers a query I was going to post earlier: What constitutes a viable tactical counter to ECM other than more ECM? Seems Pirhana's offering an answer.

Just my two cents.
-chaas

[Silent]

Elkfire, on 29 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Is elitism a requirement for being a Goon, or just a bonus?

It's deeply ingrained in our culture.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 29 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Regardless of ECM bothering you, as a well-read person, who seems to understand gaming development, doesn't putting band-**** over broken mechanics instead of fixing the mechanics bother you for the long-term health of the game?

That, yes, it bothers the hell out of me and I've kicked people off a NWN persistant world server team for that sort of 'fix' to an issue.

However, that said, I don't see that ECM is broken nor do I see the EMP effect from a PPC as being a band-aid solution to ECM's broken state. I see the EMP effect of the PPC as something that was supposed to be there all along, we were told it would be added, and it's being added. I only hope that EMP effect is on more than JUST ECM, as that really is one of the big draws of the weapon in the first place. Nor do I see the other items that have been added to help counter ECM as band-**** since they were actually IN the game before ECM was added, they just weren't activated yet. These were items already planned on for the purpose of helping counter ECM and are part of why ECM isn't considered broken by PGI and many of us players. There are other things incoming down the line that will help counter ECM as well, they are not band-aid fixes, they are things planned for all along, part of the actual design document that PGI has been following.

Seriously folks, keep in mind, this is the BETA stages of this project, it is nowhere near completion, not even half way there yet, there is still so much that we've been told will be added and so much we have NOT been told will be added, not to mention all the balance and metagame changes still to be made as things crop up due to unforeseen circumstances. Things will be changing as we get CW, why don't you wait and see more of what PGI has actually got planned before you tell them that something they say is WAI is broken and they don't have a fracking clue? Maybe, just maybe, you are the ones with the clue in this case?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I don't ever remember PPC's having an EMP attached to them in the entirety of Mechwarrior/Battle Tech. So I think that's what bugs me. But I do feel like the ECM counters to the missiles needs to be looked at in conjunction with fixing missiles. Right now it just feels wrong the way it is set up.

[Orzorn]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

he doesn't say it's over powered, he says it's overly powerful,

Since when does "over powered" (too much power) not mean "overly powerful" (too much power).

The both contain over. They both contain power. Too. Much. Power. Power greater than would be acceptable. Power greater than average. Too much, and not to standard. An exceeding amount of power. To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm.

I don't know how else you can spin that besides using a thesaurus.

[Psydotek]

Wait, what's wrong with being a "pubbie"? And who said we're all crying? O_o

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I'm a pubbie. I complain, but I try to be constructive and logical when I do. I think there is a line between whining and bringing up issues that are important to you.

I want nothing more than this game to succeed and stick around a long time.

[Voidsinger]

It's a counter too.

I think the issue I have isn't just with the limited availability of ECM making some mechs much more desirable solely on that basis.

It is the cost of the counters. Even with the new countermeasures, and a willingness to use them, some mechs are just heavily disadvantaged by this.

eg CN-9 Centurion: except AL variant, cannot mount a PPC, sacrifices 50% of energy hardpoints and is limited to a medium pulse laser if it takes TAG.

If you're going to balance ECM, then you have to look at those mechs which cannot mount the countermeasures to ECM, or pay an extravagent price to do so. Maybe some consideration needs to be given to allowing ECM on those mechs.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I do agree, when you are going from a tonnage/hard point/structure slot requirement, ECM is still out of whack in that regard as well. If the devs are completely intent on not removing any of the abilities, perhaps requiring more weight and structure is the way to go. As well as a hard point.

[Kyone Akashi]

chaas, on 29 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Ravens are awfully small targets and most ECM builds incorporate a larger engine, making them stupid-fast. Maybe I just have no confidence in my shooting, but in my experience the PPC fires like an autocannon. I've found it incredibly difficult to hit the fast-movers with autocannon fire, so you see where I'm coming from with this.

The funny thing is, I think, that his ECM will be the pilot's smallest problem if his Commando or Raven actually suffers a hit from a PPC.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 29 January 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

I don't ever remember PPC's having an EMP attached to them in the entirety of Mechwarrior/Battle Tech. So I think that's what bugs me.

Apparently they do, at least if sarna is correct:

"Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors."
- http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon (citing TRO 3050R)

And in a way, it makes sense. By all rights, the PPC is an ion cannon - it is bound to mess with electronics. Some systems will just be able to take it better than others, and I would imagine that a Guardian suite is fairly complex equipment that needs to be finetuned in order to override standard ECCM capabilities.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 29 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

I'm a pubbie. I complain, but I try to be constructive and logical when I do. I think there is a line between whining and bringing up issues that are important to you.

Contrary to some snarky elitist comments, I am fairly sure that even full Premades are just as capable of both whining as well as constructive criticism as Pubbies, anyways.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Not that i'm saying Sarna is wrong. But having played pretty much every mechwarrior game, dabbling in tabletop and reading most of the novels twice, I don't remember that feature being highlighted.

Regardless I'm not as worried about that, more so that underlying game mechanics are not being looked at and instead we are adding modules and weapon effects to fix it.

Reminds me a lot of "procs" in Everquest. You'd see that a lot. Instead of fixing taunt, they added a weapon proc that added hate. And so EVERY tank had to use those weapons and only those weapons. And of course if another class found that weapon useful, they couldn't get it because tanks had priority.

A bit of nostalgia from an old game, but the message still shines through years later in todays massive online games.

[shintakie]

M A L I C E, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Oh I love the module thing.

This is going to be WONDERFUL.

PGI, you're doing it.

You're doing it right.

Its hard to say they're doin it right when the soft counters to ECM continue to be terrible against ECM with incredibly disproportionate costs attached to them. 70 extra meters to lock on at the expense of 2 Module slots (if your preferred mech even has 2 module slots, if not you get 50 and its the only one you get to take) and a boat load of GXP and Cbills in order to soft counter (i can't stress soft counter enough) to a 1.5 ton 2 crit piece of equipment. Not only that, but modules are, as PGI described them multiple times, your end game equipment. Why the duece are they tryin to use it as a way to soft counter a readily available piece of equipment?

And that PPC change is just...meh. 7 tons to lock out a single ECM mech for 5 seconds isn't really all that great. Would much prefer TAG workin inside the ECM bubble as that'd actually make a noticeable difference.

[hammerreborn]

Grraarrgghh, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Likely not, but we can always hope.

Here's your sign.

shintakie, on 29 January 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Its hard to say they're doin it right when the soft counters to ECM continue to be terrible against ECM with incredibly disproportionate costs attached to them. 70 extra meters to lock on at the expense of 2 Module slots (if your preferred mech even has 2 module slots, if not you get 50 and its the only one you get to take) and a boat load of GXP and Cbills in order to soft counter (i can't stress soft counter enough) to a 1.5 ton 2 crit piece of equipment. Not only that, but modules are, as PGI described them multiple times, your end game equipment. Why the duece are they tryin to use it as a way to soft counter a readily available piece of equipment?

And that PPC change is just...meh. 7 tons to lock out a single ECM mech for 5 seconds isn't really all that great. Would much prefer TAG workin inside the ECM bubble as that'd actually make a noticeable difference.

They stack....so range 2 overrides range 1. So still one module slot. And that only requires a master if it's really that backbreaking.

Edited by hammerreborn, 29 January 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[Voidsinger]

shintakie, on 29 January 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Its hard to say they're doin it right when the soft counters to ECM continue to be terrible against ECM with incredibly disproportionate costs attached to them. 70 extra meters to lock on at the expense of 2 Module slots (if your preferred mech even has 2 module slots, if not you get 50 and its the only one you get to take) and a boat load of GXP and Cbills in order to soft counter (i can't stress soft counter enough) to a 1.5 ton 2 crit piece of equipment. Not only that, but modules are, as PGI described them multiple times, your end game equipment. Why the duece are they tryin to use it as a way to soft counter a readily available piece of equipment?

And that PPC change is just...meh. 7 tons to lock out a single ECM mech for 5 seconds isn't really all that great. Would much prefer TAG workin inside the ECM bubble as that'd actually make a noticeable difference.

While I think it is kind of pathetic that partial counters to ECM are incredibly more expensive/heavier/bulkier than ECM itself, just to correct you.

The Advanced Sensor Range Module is the cheapest in the game at 2.0 million.

Of course, to get level 2, you're looking at 7500GXP. It still uses the same module, so only a single slot is used.

Module slots are being made into the endgame, Garth has said so. Stalkers only have 1 base, as do K2s and a few other mechs.

[Sable Dove]

PPC's EMP effect would be nice, though hitting a light with it will be very difficult.

The sensors do almost nothing. 70m window? Do you know how fast a 3L can cover that? Less than two seconds. And that's assuming they're in the open and running directly at you. The typical engagement with a light is probably about 100m, meaning your 7500 GXP and 2MM cbills grant you basically no advantage over the equipment that's practically free by comparison.

It still does absolutely nothing to address the fact that the 3L and 2D outclass every other light mech by a significant margin. Even if this helps other mechs get a few streaks in, it doesn't change the fact that the 3L and 2D are constantly hitting you with theirs. ECM should not make the mech un-targetable. It should only make enemies in its radius unable to lock on.

These changes make virtually no difference to the game as it's played. You may see slightly more PPCs, which will be largely ineffective against lights with ECM, and streaks will remain overpowered against the rest of the lights.

Edited by Sable Dove, 29 January 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Orzorn]

Sable Dove, on 29 January 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

It still does absolutely nothing to address the fact that the 3L and 2D outclass every other light mech by a significant margin. Even if this helps other mechs get a few streaks in, it doesn't change the fact that the 3L and 2D are constantly hitting you with theirs. ECM should not make the mech un-targetable. It should only make enemies in its radius unable to lock on.

While I think ECM is too strong, this issue I quoted isn't so much ECM as it is streaks. If streaks didn't leave the launcher at ridiculous angles, or keep lock even if you're barely looking at the enemy mech, then they wouldn't be so valuable. There are several threads located around the place talking about making streaks be more strict with their lock ons and how far you're able to look away before losing lock. The best part is most that I've seen don't talk about nerfing streak damage, only how well they're able to get their lock, and how agile their missiles are out of the gate. If a weapon is going to have a 100% hit chance, then you should have to work a little harder to get and maintain that lock.

ECM just compounds the issue, because mechs with access to streaks, but not ECM, suffer.

Edited by Orzorn, 29 January 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[TheForce]

i duno about the pubbies..but i ain't gonna stop crying.

[shintakie]

hammerreborn, on 29 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

They stack....so range 2 overrides range 1. So still one module slot. And that only requires a master if it's really that backbreaking.

Voidsinger, on 29 January 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

While I think it is kind of pathetic that partial counters to ECM are incredibly more expensive/heavier/bulkier than ECM itself, just to correct you.

The Advanced Sensor Range Module is the cheapest in the game at 2.0 million.

Of course, to get level 2, you're looking at 7500GXP. It still uses the same module, so only a single slot is used.

Module slots are being made into the endgame, Garth has said so. Stalkers only have 1 base, as do K2s and a few other mechs.

My mistake on the amount of module slots. Wasn't sure if it was a new one or just upgraded the original.

On the plus side, my point does still stand that at 2 million cbills plus 5000 gxp requirement, sensor module should do far more than just add 50 meters to the range you can lock.