371 replies to this topic

[TerebNeerg]

Catapults are hardly overpowered. Just shoot them in the face / huge CT and win.

[The Cheese]

The C1 is my favourite mech. It cannot be made into the kind of boat that people complain about (no one complains about the 3 x LL Cat because it's a terrible build). How does that fit into the "nerf the Catapult boats" argument?

[Sabazial]

IMO Catapults are already balanced, AC20 / Gauss cat? large head hitbox, Streak / SRM cat? easy target ears.

If people honestly can't target the cata to check it's armaments before engaging and taking the appropriate measures then i don't know what else to say really.

[Deamhan]

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

The C1 is my favourite mech. It cannot be made into the kind of boat that people complain about (no one complains about the 3 x LL Cat because it's a terrible build). How does that fit into the "nerf the Catapult boats" argument?

The C1 is all I use...actually it's the only mech I have. Just the one, occupying a single mech bay out of the starting four. Running 3 LL and 2 SRM6, I actually laugh when I see people aim for my arms to get the SRMs. I do most of my damage from the 3 LL, lol so they focus my arms while I focus their CT.

Though, once the update comes to allow me to increase the window in which I can lock lights with SSRMs, I'll be swapping out the SRMs for SSRMs.

[Alex Wolfe]

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

The C1 is my favourite mech. It cannot be made into the kind of boat that people complain about (no one complains about the 3 x LL Cat because it's a terrible build). How does that fit into the "nerf the Catapult boats" argument?

Because this still applies?



How is the best torso/arm performance justified for a mech with excellent, symmetrical hardpoints and jump jet capability?

Catapult could perform its dedicated fire support role without being able to look almost directly behind itself like a robot owl. Cataphract for example only twists 90 degrees, even with its gimp arms.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 29 January 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Deamhan]

What's that number in front of the 140? What is that number behind the 45?

[TheForce]

i voted yes and no because i think the main issue is that they create variants with too many hardpoints. if the A1 didn't exist we wouldn't have streak/srm/lrm boat issues on a heavy.

[Stingz]

Deamhan, on 29 January 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

What's that number in front of the 140? What is that number behind the 45?

Torso Pitch, Arm Turn. The Jenner/Raven have less twist, and they're light mechs!

[The Cheese]

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Catapult could perform its dedicated fire support role without being able to look almost directly behind itself like a robot owl. Cataphract for example only twists 90 degrees, even with its gimp arms.

So the base of your argument is really that the Catapult is described as a fire support mech, therefore it should be restricted in its ability to fill other roles? (How jump jets in their current implementation are useful to a fire support mech, I'm not sure about. Should those be restricted further as well?)

Does that argument cover all other mech chassis and their described roles? What should be done about the Stalker that can (and does) core most mechs with a single SRM + laser alpha to the RCT? Just as an example.

Edited by The Cheese, 29 January 2013 - 06:51 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

So the base of your argument is really that the Catapult is described as a fire support mech, therefore it should be restricted in its ability to fill other roles? Does that argument cover all other mech chassis and their described roles?

My argument is that Catapult has the best torso twist/arm pitch in the game (not just "like a light mech" they're better than those of lights'), while keeping good-to-excellent hardpoints, weird hitbox and jumpjets on most variants. Altogether it becomes a combination that eclipses most other chassis.

It's MWO's Mary Sue mech, Victor Steiner-Davion in mech form. It's only weakness is "it can be shot". It's detrimental to the game, makes mech choices a no-brainer and future heavy mech releases unattractive.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 29 January 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Tennex]

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Because this still applies?



How is the best torso/arm performance justified for a mech with excellent, symmetrical hardpoints and jump jet capability?

Catapult could perform its dedicated fire support role without being able to look almost directly behind itself like a robot owl. Cataphract for example only twists 90 degrees, even with its gimp arms.

it also has no arms like the other heavies.

[Kylere]

This is silly, to counter this they would have to buff something else.

I must say, I have mastered 3 Cats and a A1 is not 1. But, with all the whines here I think I need to go buy one for it is clear that many players cannot counter them. Personally I have not experienced that as an issue in my other mechs, the cheese builds of cats are laughable unless some really sneaky dude out thinks you in them. It irks me when that happens, but hey, he beat me. Next time I will know a little better.

[The Cheese]

Tennex, on 29 January 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

it also has no arms like the other heavies.

...and 4 degrees narrower torso pitch.

[Mazzyplz]

this is what you do; this guy will bring any cat into line

Edited by Mazzyplz, 29 January 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[Stingz]

Tennex, on 29 January 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

it also has no arms like the other heavies.

At the very least change the Catapult's Arms/Torso to match light mechs. A 65 ton Heavy mech shouldn't twist more than a 35 ton (Armless) Light can.

Edited by Stingz, 29 January 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[The Cheese]

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

My argument is that Catapult has the best torso twist/arm pitch in the game (not just "like a light mech" they're better than those of lights'), while keeping good-to-excellent hardpoints, weird hitbox and jumpjets on most variants. Altogether it becomes a combination that eclipses most other chassis.

Comparing it to lights is apples and oranges. Torso twist for the Cat is advantageous, yes, but so is a tiny profile and very high top speed for the lights.

You're saying that it's disadvantages do not offset it's advantages when compared to other chassis. I say that they do. It can't move as fast as a Dragon, take or dish out as much punishment as a Cataphract, and it's important chassis segments are notoriously easy to hit. Catapults go down so easy, it's laughable.

Stingz, on 29 January 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

At the very least change the Catapult's Arms/Torso to match light mechs. A 65 ton mech shouldn't twist more than a 35 ton mech can.

Why? I can see how it might not twist as fast as a light, but why would it not be able to twist further? Actually, don't worry about answering that. Real world physics has no place here.

Edited by The Cheese, 29 January 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Tennex, on 29 January 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

it also has no arms like the other heavies.

Neither do Jenner, Raven, YLW or Stalker, none of them get such enormous twist/pitch in return. And with 140 degrees torso twist it can bring ALL its weapons to bear in a wider arc than other heavies' arms can go, and torso won't reach. Dragon's arms can only go 130 degrees to the side, torso 90. Cataphract only reaches a pathetic 110 with its arms. ALL Catapult's weapons can turn 140. Some "advantage" those elbow-having arms are.

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Comparing it to lights is apples and oranges. Torso twist for the Cat is advantageous, yes, but so is a tiny profile and very high top speed for the lights.

Missing the point. It's the best in the game. Smaller mechs, bigger mechs, blue mechs, bargain bin mechs, hero mechs - they all have inferior ratings to Catapult. Some have stuff to somewhat compensate, some don't. Catapults still number 1.

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

You're saying that it's disadvantages do not offset it's advantages when compared to other chassis. I say that they do. It can't move as fast as a Dragon, take or dish out as much punishment as a Cataphract, and it's important chassis segments are notoriously easy to hit. Catapults go down so easy, it's laughable.

...

...6SRM6 or AC40 Catapult "can't dish out as much punishment as a Cataphract", not to mention SRM36 one can go over 80 kph with that config? And its invisible torso weapons/XL engine sides are not "important chassis segments"? Because it sure isn't easy to hit those...

...and what good does Dragon's speed do for it? There's no "foot race" mode in MWO. You need to kill mechs (which takes firepower) or take points (which takes durability on top of speed, else you can only harass) to win matches. A Dragon is a laughable threat, in battle you either leave it to run around for a bit (because it's just a loldragon), or crush its giant nose of a CT whenever it comes around, that's it. Just "being fast" doesn't mean a thing if you have nothing to bring into battle with that speed. Look at how useful and mighty Spiders or Cent D turned out.

[ArmandTulsen]

Blair, on 29 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

I would say there is more than one way ... [puts on sunglasses] ... to skin a Cat.

http://t1.gstatic.co...yR4U4AaICr2n8jb

[LaserAngel]

BLUPRNT, on 29 January 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Cats do not have lateral arm travel. They cannot lock LRM's and fire while face shotting lasers into another like I can on on my Hunchie. And as far as the A1 what do people expect to do with a 6 missles only mech. I tried a combo of missles on one and with ECM and no ability to tag, what then? Of course in a well organized team a combo would be viable, but in a PUG forget it. I'd be open to something else. Anybody?

I've done it. You can't TAG, LRM, and fire Medium Lasers at the same time in ECM. Two targets line up, you LRM the one in back and hit the one in front with the Medium Lasers, all while jump jetting to get that sweet Artemis IV FCS bonus.

The mech is a freaking owl, I can walk in the opposite direction and fire LRMs at a target and yet "No" is the marjority? Terrifying, it's my go to mech and my Founder's pick.

Edited by LaserAngel, 29 January 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

being saying this for ages simply cause it can stack missles on the flexible chassis and it can double up the 2 most powerfull ballistics in the game where only a few others can albiet in vaulerable arms. i wouldn't get rid of the torso twist that's a catapult characteristic that shouldn't change. dual ac20's and gauss in tiny torsos? THAT SHOULD CHANGE!