371 replies to this topic

[Alex Wolfe]

GalaxyBluestar, on 29 January 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

being saying this for ages simply cause it can stack missles on the flexible chassis and it can double up the 2 most powerfull ballistics in the game where only a few others can albiet in vaulerable arms. i wouldn't get rid of the torso twist that's a catapult characteristic that shouldn't change. dual ac20's and gauss in tiny torsos? THAT SHOULD CHANGE!

Agility never was a "Catapult's characteristic" until MWO. Powerful MISSILE arms and jump jets were.

For some reason, its MWO iteration got a "bonus perk" .

[GalaxyBluestar]

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Agility never was a "Catapult's characteristic" until MWO. Powerful MISSILE arms and jump jets were.

For some reason, its MWO iteration got a "bonus perk" .

MW4 gave it the same extra torso twist perk, so i'd say for 10 so years it's been a catapult characteristic
in fact it was a full 360 degrees in that game so be thankfull it's been cut in half for MWO

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 29 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[Livewyr]

sorry man, but because the cat can be so easily disarmed, it has enough weakness as it is.

[Alex Wolfe]

GalaxyBluestar, on 29 January 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

MW4 gave it the same extra torso twist perk, so i'd say for 10 so years it's been a catapult characteristic
in fact it was a full 360 degrees in that game so be thankfull it's been cut in half for MWO

Okay. Let me just fire something up real quick...

...

...done.



So yeah, 100 degrees in a game where some mechs go 360 (including Raven, which twists 120 in MWO). Translates to "historically, stiff as hell".

I would love those size-restricted hardpoints though.

Livewyr, on 29 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

sorry man, but because the cat can be so easily disarmed, it has enough weakness as it is.

Sure, brb disarming those AC40 or 4LL catapults easily.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 29 January 2013 - 08:45 PM.

[The Cheese]

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Missing the point. It's the best in the game. Smaller mechs, bigger mechs, blue mechs, bargain bin mechs, hero mechs - they all have inferior ratings to Catapult. Some have stuff to somewhat compensate, some don't. Catapults still number 1.

The Atlas has the most armour of any mech that we have. The Spider can fit the most jump jets. The point is, there is always going to be something that has the most of something.

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

...6SRM6 or AC40 Catapult "can't dish out as much punishment as a Cataphract", not to mention SRM36 one can go over 80 kph with that config?

Ok, I'll give you the cheese builds there, but I argue that those are there whether it has a large torso twist or not. Before you argue that the torso twist makes it that much more effective, I'll refer you back to that stalker that's outfitted with SRMs and MLs. It goes the speed of an Atlas and has the narrowest torso twist in the game, yet it can still do the same thing as a 6XSRM6 or a dual AC20 Cat, that is, it can get right up in your face and blow it apart. The Stalker even has a crapton of armour to offset that speed.

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

And its invisible torso weapons/XL engine sides are not "important chassis segments"? Because it sure isn't easy to hit those...

Those are the chassis segments that I was referring to, along with the cockpit of course, when I said "notoriously easy to hit". Face-on, the cockpit takes up a fairly large section of the mech's frontal profile, and side on, the side torsos are an easy target.

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

...and what good does Dragon's speed do for it? There's no "foot race" mode in MWO. You need to kill mechs (which takes firepower) or take points (which takes durability on top of speed, else you can only harass) to win matches. A Dragon is a laughable threat, in battle you either leave it to run around for a bit (because it's just a loldragon), or crush its giant nose of a CT whenever it comes around, that's it. Just "being fast" doesn't mean a thing if you have nothing to bring into battle with that speed. Look at how useful and mighty Spiders or Cent D turned out.

Position on the field is extremely important. Getting to a good position before the other guy is often a deciding factor in a fight. Just because it can't go toe to toe with heavier mechs doesn't mean it can't beat them, and just because most of the Dragon pilots out there just derp around without much apparent purpose doesn't mean that the chassis is no good as a fighter.

On a side note, no one expected the Spider to be any good with the game we have right now.

[SpiralRazor]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

It seems like every cheese build that rolls out that -doesn't- involve ECM involves Cats. The Catapult is, bar none, the most powerful heavy chassis in the game. That's not to say that the 'Phracts or Dragons aren't solid mechs, but as far as raw power, they can't match the Catapult.

Why is that? Well, primarily it's because the Cat is a very boat friendly chassis, and boats will always be popular in MW. They're easy to play, and they tend to be rather powerful. So obviously, we nerf the hardpoints to make it a less viable boat, right? Well hold on, the Cat needs a niche, and as a heavyweight energy/missileboat it serves our needs just fine. I don't really have a problem with it being a good boat.

So, how then can we knock the Cat down a peg without overnerfing it? How can we keep the Cat as a really solid chassis while narrowing the gap between it and the other heavies?

Simple. The Cat has an advantage that no other chassis can hope to replicate. It's torso traverse. Catapults can turn almost all the way around, and with a big engine it can do so very quickly. This makes the Catapult the undeniable brawl king, as it can track mechs well beyond the point where any other chassis would be able to keep them in the crosshairs. You can't outmanuver Cats as they are. Their turret-like upper torsos just make them too damn agile. So, how do we nerf the Cat's superiority without taking away hardpoints or changing much about how it plays? We give it a blind spot. We decrease the insane amount of torso traverse (matched only by the Hunchback's Torso+Arms and the Spider's Torso + Arms) and the Catapult suddenly becomes a lot less insane in a brawl.

Look at the Stalker. I'm not saying it has to be decreased -that- far, but the Stalker is still an insanely powerful fire support mech while not being completely dominant in a brawl, and Stalker brawlers can burn down anything they can keep in front of them.

The idea struck me while I was trying to circle around behind a splat cat in my Centurion, and I realized that he could hit me far outside of my traverse with very little effort in a turning battle. It struck me as a little funky that a second line fire support mech can easily beat a main-line battlemech in a turning battle.

Like I said before, I really don't have a problem with all the boat builds. Splat cats, Streak cats, Gauss Cats, KC20s, there's nothing wrong with them and they're certainly beatable. They just seem a little too good compared to the other mechs you can bring. Gaussaphracts just aren't as good as Gausscats. An SRM Stalker isn't really as good as the splat cat. I think the biggest reason behind this is the amount of torso traverse the Cat has, and I'd be very interested to see what reducing the traverse would do to make the Cat a little less dominant.

EDIT: Added a poll.

Heres some advice for ya:

Stop being bad.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Alex Wolfe, on 29 January 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Okay. Let me just fire something up real quick...

...

...done.



So yeah, 100 degrees in a game where some mechs go 360 (including Raven, which twists 120 in MWO). Translates to "historically, stiff as hell".

I would love those size-restricted hardpoints though.


Sure, brb disarming those AC40 or 4LL catapults easily.

thanks for jogging my memory!

still i wouldn't vote against it's manourverability but what it can throw around with said ability is another matter...

[Zylo]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Like I said before, I really don't have a problem with all the boat builds. Splat cats, Streak cats, Gauss Cats, KC20s, there's nothing wrong with them and they're certainly beatable. They just seem a little too good compared to the other mechs you can bring. Gaussaphracts just aren't as good as Gausscats. An SRM Stalker isn't really as good as the splat cat. I think the biggest reason behind this is the amount of torso traverse the Cat has, and I'd be very interested to see what reducing the traverse would do to make the Cat a little less dominant.

EDIT: Added a poll.

This sounds like another "I can't beat it so it needs to be nerfed" thread.

Catapults have an easy to hit head hitbox, easy to hit missile pods. Aim for these and their torso twist rate means nothing.


I can kill catapults easy by targeting these weak points and when I sometimes play a catapult I have to be very careful about these weak points because many players are aware of these weak points and target them.

If you're getting outbrawled by catapults maybe you need to look at your own mech designs.

[Alex Wolfe]

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

The Atlas has the most armour of any mech that we have. The Spider can fit the most jump jets. The point is, there is always going to be something that has the most of something.

Atlas has most armor, which matters. Spider has most jump jets, which doesn't matter.

Thing is, having something isn't enough, you need to have something that matters in this game we have here, not just looks decent on paper. Some mechs have too many of those qualities at once (Raven has wonky hitboxes, MISSILE and ECM, Catapult has very wonky hitboxes, best boating capability incl. MISSILE and best torso twist), some have "just fine" (Cataphracts for the most part, Stalkers besides 3F where huge hardpoints are counterbalanced by stiffness and thus fragility), and some are poop (Spider or Dragon's speed doesn't matter if it can't take down anything it encounters).

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Ok, I'll give you the cheese builds there, but I argue that those are there whether it has a large torso twist or not. Before you argue that the torso twist makes it that much more effective, I'll refer you back to that stalker that's outfitted with SRMs and MLs. It goes the speed of an Atlas and has the narrowest torso twist in the game, yet it can still do the same thing as a 6XSRM6 or a dual AC20 Cat, that is, it can get right up in your face and blow it apart. The Stalker even has a crapton of armour to offset that speed.

Cheese builds are even more effective since they can keep you in their sights at all times, and shoot over the shoulder while retreating, even using all of their weapons.

Also it's good that you should mention the Stalker. It does have fearsome firepower, but real quick - what's its weakness? ...the torso twist, of course. What's Catapult's weakness again? ...right, nothing obvious. You can shoot arms, big deal, you can shoot them on most mechs should you choose to, and at least two cheesepult configs don't even care. That's it.

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Those are the chassis segments that I was referring to, along with the cockpit of course, when I said "notoriously easy to hit". Face-on, the cockpit takes up a fairly large section of the mech's frontal profile, and side on, the side torsos are an easy target.

The cockpit was shrunk down from the giant bullseye it used to be. And Catapult's sides (including K2's "only weapons that matter"), and XL engines cannot be hit from the front reliably, you need to go from the side like you said. Incidentally, the mech has the twist to make it nigh-impossible to reach its side. We arrive at the heart of the problem.

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Position on the field is extremely important. Getting to a good position before the other guy is often a deciding factor in a fight. Just because it can't go toe to toe with heavier mechs doesn't mean it can't beat them, and just because most of the Dragon pilots out there just derp around without much apparent purpose doesn't mean that the chassis is no good as a fighter.

Position is important, but only if there's actually something you can do once you arrive. With its combination of size and poor weapons, a Dragon can be bullied by mechs nearly half its weight. It can run fast to die, and it spawns Catapults on top of that.

The Cheese, on 29 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

On a side note, no one expected the Spider to be any good with the game we have right now.

Well, the Dragon is pretty close to a heavy Spider. Fast, impotent, and spawns a way better mech that can crush half the enemy team if left unchecked.

Catapult is a scourge, and it's always been since I joined the closed beta nearly half a year ago. Gausscats, streak cats (aka the raidboss), MISSILE cats, SRM36 or AC40 cats now. Those hardpoints allow for so much cheese it needs a disadvantage to go with it. Like the Stalker (although PGI fumbled a bit with 3F, which enjoys nearly 150% torso twist of its brethren).

I get it that people may enjoy it because it's so good, and not notice it's too good. It is, though, and I believe it's bad for the game in the long run. Halcyon days of the Catapult, God-Emperor of MWO have to end some day.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 29 January 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[TerebNeerg]

Catapult's weakness it's it's two easiest to hit locations (head, CT) mean it dies. If the face is not pointed at you, it can't hurt you. Wait until they look at you to blow it away instead of shooting just because your weapons are ready.

[The Cheese]

Ok, I can see that we're both arguing with points that aren't going to convince the other person, so I'm going to stop there. You think it needs to change and I don't. Since neither of us gets to make the call, we'll just have to wait and see whether anything happens.

[INAPPROPRIATE NAME 0001]

Zylo, on 29 January 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

I am quite literally ******* ********

[Redacted] you'd think it'd be telling that most of the problem builds were on the catapult chassis and more or less **** any argument you could have against it but, sure. We'll go with what you said.

Edited by Egomane, 30 January 2013 - 02:12 AM.
CoC Violation

[TerebNeerg]

Oh look at that, headcapped two SRM catapults in 1 match. AC-20 to the noggin and finished with large lasers.

[Brilig]

Honestly I think the Cat is good to go as it is. It might be a little more versatile than most people expected, but it doesn't seem over powerd.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Brilig, on 29 January 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

Honestly I think the Cat is good to go as it is. It might be a little more versatile than most people expected, but it doesn't seem over powerd.

oh really? when an wackpault charges in you got to hit that head before it hits you a mere 2 times for death in most other mechs. some mediums and lights go down in one alpha. from a 65 tonner in a game where the devs already doubled armour values for longer lasting fights that's what i call op!

gauss pault is almost as bad.

[xRatas]

Please no nerf to catapult's torso movement. It can not track fast movement with it's arms, so it needs a well turning torso.

Catapult has the easiest to hit head, and quite easily targeted center torso. K2 is also the most fun mech in game now IMO, mostly because high mounted PPCs, decent speed and fast and well turning torso.

Also, gauss and AC20 cats are not that great anyway, another has glasscannons and the other is toothless with even slightly longer ranges. And there are better builds of K2 than either gauss or AC20 copybuild... Those might just need bit more thinking when using them.

(S)SRM-pults are not that horrible either, not that hard to take apart from range, and if you let one suprise you, it's not actually catapult driver's fault, is it? But newbies need to have one trick ponies, that are good when they get to do that one trick, but useless otherwise. If one can't fight against an one trick pony, again the failure is not that pony is too good, you are just not exploiting it's weaknesses. Also, gausscats seem to be almost extinct nowdays, easily breaking gaussrifles seemed to remove it from game really.

Cataphract brings more ranged DPS, Dragon is faster, why not let Catapult be something from between..?

edit:
What the heck are you guys smoking..? Dragon impotent? It can easily deal 400 damage per match and still move more than 100kph. It can easily follow those lights long enough to shred them apart, or stay behind Assault so he can never target it. Only problem with it is that it is not that easy mech to pilot well. Carboncopy catapults and cataphracts can be driven with anyone who can only map weapons on macintosh mouse with only one ear, and might even be good sometimes, if you play by their rules. Others might really need some understanding about mech piloting to go with.

Edited by xRatas, 29 January 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[Brilig]

GalaxyBluestar, on 29 January 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

oh really? when an wackpault charges in you got to hit that head before it hits you a mere 2 times for death in most other mechs. some mediums and lights go down in one alpha. from a 65 tonner in a game where the devs already doubled armour values for longer lasting fights that's what i call op!

gauss pault is almost as bad.

I suppose my view might be a bit different since Most of my mechs are heavies and assaults. (Phract, Atlas, Awesome.) Most of them are fast enough to keep a Catapult at range, and/or have enough damage output to take out their weapons quickly. When I am in the one light I do have I am careful to stay at range, or stay out of any SRM Cats arc of fire that I am fighting.

They only really seem very dangerous at point blank range. Shoot for the legs, or shoot for the ears. You get Ammo explosions from the legs, and take out their weapons in their ears. It works well for me. When a mech is as specialized as an SRM Cat, it comes with some disadvantages. The biggest being very short range, and easily destroyed weapons.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Brilig, on 29 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

I suppose my view might be a bit different since Most of my mechs are heavies and assaults. (Phract, Atlas, Awesome.) Most of them are fast enough to keep a Catapult at range, and/or have enough damage output to take out their weapons quickly. When I am in the one light I do have I am careful to stay at range, or stay out of any SRM Cats arc of fire that I am fighting.

They only really seem very dangerous at point blank range. Shoot for the legs, or shoot for the ears. You get Ammo explosions from the legs, and take out their weapons in their ears. It works well for me. When a mech is as specialized as an SRM Cat, it comes with some disadvantages. The biggest being very short range, and easily destroyed weapons.

srm cats yeah they can be handled but ac40's blowing torsos and legs before it closes in and rips you up... a bit discouraging really. and that's from a awesome/stalker pilot.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 29 January 2013 - 10:45 PM.

[Khobai]

SRM cats and AC/20 cats are both examples of why this game needs tighter role restrictions on mechs. When a Catapult-A1 is a more dangerous brawler than just about anything else, or when a Catapult-K2 makes a better ballistic sniper than a Jagermech, theres obviously something very wrong with the game. I understand that players like customization, but I'd rather see every mech be useful, and right now with customization the way it is there's just no reason for a lot of the current mechs to even exist in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 29 January 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[Super Mono]

The torso-twist on a Cat is ridiculously good. A large part of the skill in playing Mechwarrior is controlling your leg and torso facing so that you can maneuver while still effectively keeping your weapons trained on a target. A Catapult being able to look directly behind itself makes this brain dead easy as there's very little dead zone to hamper you. This, coupled with impressive weapon loadouts makes the Catapult the king of brawling heavy mechs.

It needs to be lowered greatly so that the Catapult can't dive into every melee and come out on top, as it's affecting the utility of other heavy mechs. The Cataphract is being used primarily as a ballistic fire-support mech negating the role the Jagermech was suppose to fill. This problem will only grow when more mechs are introduced until the Catapult is corrected.

Sadly looking at the poll #s it looks like most people don't want to give up their easy mode.