abusing knockdown mechanic (i'm guessing this is why it was pulled) - in particular look at how commando goes down around 4:55, raven crashes on purpose to knock him down, same with an awesome at the end
if we're to see a return of this feature, what measures are going to be taken to prevent this from happening
it's worrying to me as a player what a potential comeback of this feature would mean
I found knockdown to be the MOST annoying part of the game. (I'm talking to you Dragons players!)
However, I agree that it should still be implemented in some form or fashion, but in an altered format.
I can't stand it when I get knocked over for barely brushing another mech (friendly or otherwise) and nothing happens to them,
even though my Mech weighs more!
Something simpler? Ex: If you manage to do "X" amount of damage by crashing into an enemy (which you can still do I believe) you have a chance to knock them over. This would be modified by the speed of the two mechs involved and their respective weight classes. This is an area therefore where having heavy/and or fast mechs should matter of course.
I'm no programmer however. I wish them luck in trying, but if knockdown goes anywhere near where it was before without being "fixed" first, then.I will stick with LRM boats.
Um the Dragon portion of knockdown was fixed. In fact right before they removed knockdown if a dragon collided with a pult it fell too and assaults knocked it down. In fact what made no sense was how a Jenner could knock down an atlas but a hunchback or dragon running at 90 couldnt. Personally I want knockdown back, while I wasnt a tackler except for one match where I had no weapons and a cat and I kept falling while my teamate shot at him helping us win the game. Not a exploit just a smart move and a risky one for me because He couldve easily blew my mech to smitherines.
I think what we have now in place of knockdowns, infinite rubber banding that you dont notice for a few seconds that is hard to get out of, is far worse than the actual knockdowns were.
bring back knockdowns, even as they were, and get rid of this stupid rubberbanding if you get near another mech. At least knockdowns make sense to a human brain and physics and stuff.
Something simpler? Ex: If you manage to do "X" amount of damage by crashing into an enemy (which you can still do I believe) you have a chance to knock them over. This would be modified by the speed of the two mechs involved and their respective weight classes. This is an area therefore where having heavy/and or fast mechs should matter of course.
No "chance", please? We don't roll to determine where damage gets applied, we don't roll to determine whether we hit or not, we don't roll to determine whether we lock on or not, so there's no reason to put RNG anywhere near knockdowns. If someone is heavy enough, and going fast enough, they should knock down who they're trying to knock down. If they aren't heavy or fast enough, then they shouldn't.
The real reason collisions were pulled was due to a conflict between Network and Client side Physics -- that at one point began causing game crashes for entire matches when one of the PGI accidently raised the collision 'Mech on an Atlas a bit too high. The extreme lag during the "stress testing" a week or two before-hand was blamed on this and typically the entire match would slow to a crawl the instant an Atlas was knocked down, sometimes to the point that the match became unplayable.
Although that issue was fixed, collisions was removed around the same time. Crash-causing aside, they had issues with both the Network physics making incomprehensible decisions on which way the 'Mech or 'Mechs should fall. So while you saw the 'Mech fall one way, the Network would say it fell another way. This causes the 'Mech to rapidly teleport back and forth making it nearly impossible to shoot them during the latest stages of Closed Beta.
As such, they removed it as they felt it was game-breaking.
My original explanation was best. That was lost, however, so my second time will be quoted below.
Koniving, on 18 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:
You'll thank me with a like.
On to the next item.
Impact/collisions
are a fickle thing. Given the very early "we'll make hacking / cheating nearly impossible" mentality, the game's netcode is almost entirely network reliant. Optimizations have removed the delays in our actions as the client asks for permission from the server. Rubber-banding, a symptom of the server and one or more clients involved in a squabble about who gets to be where, is also a sign that a "collision" would have occurred. It was great, actually, as the instant the clients and servers argued, the server had a cure-all command. "I was here." "No I was here first." "No no I was first!" Server: "Shut up and fall over." Clients: "O...okay." Sadly a new argument started between both ends. Client: "I fell to the left." Network: "No, you fell to the right." Second client: "Which is it!? OMG TELL ME!" Eventually we'll see which one the Network physics engine saw because the 'Mech will get up there. Until then the 'Mech would teleport back and forth rapidly. When I explained this for the first time, someone dubbed it Schrödinger's 'Mech. Although, I really wish we'd call it Koniving's 'Mech.
Enjoy, and we all miss it. It'll come back in the future after community warfare starts.
As a dedicated light pilot during closed beta I broke my teeth on knockdown deathsquads. Knockdowns need to be back not to just balance lights, but for the light pilots that feel that its useless to use a mech that is not nearly as fun to use.
Could be me, but one of the reasons i dedicated myself to lights was the rush of knowing i could be knocked down and ruined as soon as i slipped up and got too close with my small lasers. Being able to stop and make a mech running after you and watching him veer away from fear of tripping. Thats what made it great.
It wasn't pulled because of situational abuse. No way.
It was glitchy when mechs got up and I assume they didn't want such an overt fail to code plain as day when they were starting to charge people for game features.
As a light mech pilot, I don't mind knockdown....... what I hated when the following was part of the game.
I try to run to the right of a building, but due to lag, along with the overall stupidity of the code, I failed to run forward in the direction my feet were pointing.. and slammed into the building..... but wait, my feet weren't pointed there, so i would rubber band back, and then shoot forward again, and end up on the left side of the building..... and then fall, because either the fact that it wrongly slammed me into the building, or the fact that another mech also tried to go left at the building and didn't make it either did manage to have a metaphysical presence, and we get to fall, even if we fall in two different locations and out of sight of each other.
Of course, this doesn't count those times that I just fell, in the open, no mech (enemy or otherwise) in view, because the game noted that another mech had walked through a space I had been at 30 seconds ago, or in one case, over a minute previous, and that means we must have collided.... so we would both fall.
Like I said, if I hit another mech, I don't mind falling, and having the ability to ram another mech and knock it down, or at least bumping it over a bit, ruining aim.... but I really dread the "you passed through the same space as some ancestral ghost mech from another match, so you fall"... that we have seen already.
Another video on how "fun" knockdowns can be when they become the prime method of attack even before shooting. This is not how it works within the setting, and this is not what should be the focus of the game.
Note how my sole contempt regarding such underhanded tactics is directed solely against the aforementioned "knockdown death squads" - I deem it realistic and an appropriate challenge that a collision between machines with a significant gap in size and weight should have the appropriate effects. But honestly: when playing this game, I am hoping for exciting firefights, not for some sort of football where BattleMechs pin each other to the ground, basically stunlocking their opponent so that the other pilot has zero chance to escape the kill. Might as well lean back as soon as you are tackled. The whole experience is rather frustrating, which is why I believe it was not a coincidence that the mechanic was removed just as tackling became more popular than shooting, regardless of the public explanation about the netcode warping (really, did that bother anyone? the victim was still dead meat, as you can clearly see on the video).
My own thoughts on how to re-implement a collision mechanic would focus on establishing a difference between the weight classes, simultaneously offering a more fair as well as more realistic approach to the general principle. For example, it could be possible to have knockdowns happen only upon collision with a heavier 'Mech, whereas colliding with a machine of similar or lower weight class merely results in a temporary loss of control, having the 'Mech stagger a few meters in an altered direction. Also, all 'Mechs involved in a collision should take an amount of damage.
Expanding on this idea, an option for an even deeper implementation could implement a chance for knockdowns that gets higher the more the other 'Mech weighs and the faster it moves. This could also be affected by modules such as an "Improved Gyro".
Mackman, on 31 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:
No "chance", please? We don't roll to determine where damage gets applied, we don't roll to determine whether we hit or not, we don't roll to determine whether we lock on or not, so there's no reason to put RNG anywhere near knockdowns.
You do roll to determine whether or not your U/AC5 jams. You roll to determine which crit slot is hit when incurring damage beyond armor. You roll to determine whether or not your ammunition blows up. You roll to determine when your reactor blows from overheat.
There is no reason to avoid chance entirely, where it makes a better game element than not being there at all.
That being said, perhaps chance could also be replaced by requiring the pilot to react with his left/right steering keys, like a sort of "quick-reaction minigame" where you need to quickly regain balance otherwise you fall to the side?
Eddrick, on 31 January 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:
That's not an exploit. If that's an exploit. So, is focus fire. Gets the same result. THAT is griefing.
Not really. Focus fire lets you react. Being tackled by, say, some fast-mover that slams into you from the side just as you were focusing on a different enemy means you can lean back and watch your 'Mech get ripped apart whilst not being able to do anything for several seconds. Talk about getting thrown out of the immersion!
Tackling only became so popular because it was the easiest way to get rid of Lights. Little armour, not moving, not shooting? Free kills! Joy all around. Except for anyone subjected to such a fate, of course.
If some people think ECM+Streaks is bad, they haven't seen dedicated tacklers in action.
Edited by Kyone Akashi, 31 January 2013 - 03:44 PM.
2
Rokuzachi, on 31 January 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:
