Clan Mech Builds
#1
Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:57 PM
There are two types. Second-line units which are essentially the same as IS mechs just with better/more efficient equipment but there is not necessarily any limits regarding construction of them which means they can be modded freely… and Omnimechs … which is what everyone is drooling over.
But.
Omnimechs are NOT as open as you think (depending on how they are implemented). For example, you can NOT remove the engine in an Omnimech and replace it with another. Also. Not all weapons are always in the modular pods. Any weapons which are mounted on the chassis itself can NOT be removed/replaced. If the Devs are smart about it … in order to ease balance issues … they will allow only standard variant modules to be purchased.
Example:
Puma (Adder)– Prime: Comes with a Flamer in the CT as part of the chassis and has 2 ERPPC (1 in an Omni module in each arm).
Puma (Adder) – A: Comes with a Flamer in the CT as part of the chassis and has a LRM-20 in a module in the left arm, another in an identical module in the right arm, a Small Pulse Laser in a module in the left torso and another in a module in the right torso.
So when you buy the Puma, for example, you would initially be buying the Prime variant. From there you could buy an Alpha package which includes all the modules (two LRM-20 modules and 2 small pulse modules) to construct the Alpha makeup.
You couldn’t just rip off the 2 LRM-20s and use the extra tonnage to throw on 10 medium lasers in the side torso modules because there is no purchasable module that has all those lasers in it. You would (potentially) have to just use whatever modules were available between the variants for the chassis. For most Omnimechs this would still allow for a wide variety and flexibility considering most Omnis have around 6 or more variants and thus a good number of modules/weapons available.
Example modules that would be available for the Puma:
1x ERPPC
1x LRM-20
1x Small pulse laser
1x LB5-X
1x ER Medium laser
1x Large pulse laser
1x LRM-15
1x Medium pulse laser
1x Narc launcher
1x ER Large laser
1x SSRM-2
1x UAC-5
1x ATM-9
2x Micro pulse laser
1x Heavy large laser
4x AP Gauss rifle
1x HAG-20
At least, that’s how they could limit them so they don’t become a developers’ game-balance nightmare.
If they go with the true intent of the Omnimechs then yes, you could rip off the LRM-20s in the arms and use the tonnage to load up a crap ton of any weapon you wanted into the modular side torso spots. In which case boating will become utterly rampant and it will be impossible to keep the game balanced at which point things pretty much go down in flames.
#2
Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:55 PM
#3
Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:59 PM
Step 2. Enforce heavy restrictions regarding equipment and internals just like in TT.
Step 3. OmniMechs occupy 2 drop slots instead of one.
Congrats, the game's saved.
#4
Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:38 PM
Norris J Packard, on 31 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:
Step 2. Enforce heavy restrictions regarding equipment and internals just like in TT.
Step 3. OmniMechs occupy 2 drop slots instead of one.
1. Mixtech doesn't make sense for the era anyways.
2. The restrictions aren't very heavy, but yeah, I expect them to continue using standard construction rules.
3. Would rather have BV. But I actually WANT the clan tech to be significantly better. I want to see some 12 v. 10 Assault companies against medium/heavy binaries.
Edited by Kobold, 31 January 2013 - 07:43 PM.
#5
Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:32 PM
pcunite, on 31 January 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:
Each pawn that reaches the other end of the board can be turned into a queen.
#6
Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:51 PM
#7
Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:51 PM
But unless they are planning to do a massive change in the mechlab (very unlikely) we are stuck working with what we already have. And just opening it up to put anything within a body location would likely get very abused very quickly.
You think people complain NOW about Streakcats before and now Splatcats? Imagine what a Clan player could do with more heatsinks since they take up less room, and a boated SRM-6 or (God forbid, SSRM-6 racks) which are far lighter than their IS counterparts.
At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say no more.
If you insist on just opening it up to allow any modifications within modular spaces ... I'd have to recommend adding a game type that only permit Stock mechs only so when people get tired of facing off for the hundredth time against an uber cheese build they at least have something to fall back to give themselves a bit of a break.
#8
Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:53 PM
#9
Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:16 PM
there are ways to balance clan mechs with IS mechs while keeping it fun, we just need to actually find and test all of them out, it we don't like it, then we change it.
it is still... *gripes*... beta.
#10
Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:46 PM
#11
Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:19 PM
Looking at it and seeing that the primary config Nova (Black Hawk) costs more than the average Atlas, and whenever repairs are brought back, I think Omni mechs might not be all that common on the battlefield however I wouldn't be surprised to see a bunch of IICs running around. Especially since the basic model rendering could be reworked versions of some of the mechs that we already have. I think this paragraph is getting off subject though. Apologies if it leads to derailment. >.<
Edited by Kasiagora, 31 January 2013 - 11:21 PM.
#12
Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:22 PM
AceTimberwolf, on 31 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:
Pretty much yes. Give them a mixture of fixed type hardpoints (energy, missile, ballistic) and Omni points that can mount any weapon type.
Example: Timberwolf has missile hardpoints in the torso and Omni hardpoints in it's arms.
This will allow customization without enabling ridiculous boating.
#13
Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:27 AM
Dirkdaring, on 31 January 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:
Remember C.LRM has no indirect fire. Tag Would be good but you gotta get out of cover to use them
Sug, on 31 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:
Pretty much yes. Give them a mixture of fixed type hardpoints (energy, missile, ballistic) and Omni points that can mount any weapon type.
Example: Timberwolf has missile hardpoints in the torso and Omni hardpoints in it's arms.
This will allow customization without enabling ridiculous boating.
Yea that sounds fine with me
#14
Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:19 AM
Clantech is not supposed to be fair or balanced in any other way than cost/limit, be it IS mechs with clan weapons or clan omnimechs. Couple of omnimechs cost as much as a bunch of rusty IS mediums, and in some cases they would be much less effective, that's it.
#15
Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:49 AM
Kobold, on 31 January 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:
1. Mixtech doesn't make sense for the era anyways.
2. The restrictions aren't very heavy, but yeah, I expect them to continue using standard construction rules.
3. Would rather have BV. But I actually WANT the clan tech to be significantly better. I want to see some 12 v. 10 Assault companies against medium/heavy binaries.
BV would be impossible to setup, MWO doesn't have the playerbase for it. It's not a reasonable matchmaking system.
#16
Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:43 AM
Your best hope is a match-making system that can handle it.
#17
Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:20 AM
AceTimberwolf, on 01 February 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:
All normal LRM launchers (IS and Clan) have indirect-fire capability.
it is the ATM launchers (available in 3060) and Streak LRM launchers (available in 3057) - both of which are Clan-exclusive tech - that are incapable of indirect fire, not the standard LRM launchers.
Norris J Packard, on 31 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:
Step 2. Enforce heavy restrictions regarding equipment and internals just like in TT.
Step 3. OmniMechs occupy 2 drop slots instead of one.
Congrats, the game's saved.
#18
Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:29 AM
Timberwolf prime:
2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
1 Medium pulse laser
2x Machine guns w/1ton ammo
2x CLRM20s w/2tons ammo
CXL375
460 points of Ferro Armor
Head: 18
CT: 72
CT rear: 18
RT/LT: 50
RT/LT rear: 14
RA/LA: 48
RL/LL: 64
17DHS
Your precious Timberwolf Prime omnimech can only remove:
2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
2x CLRM20s w/2tons ammo
1ton MG ammo
That's 23 tons of weapons and ammo and 25 critical slots.
You can't remove a little here to add to there, you can't shift this heatsink there to here, you can't change your engine to go faster or slower, you can't add heatsinks to a mech that ONLY has 17 DHS (And with heat currently? It'd bake the pilot in minutes)...
I could go on but I'm sure I made my point.
Overall, what made the clans so deadly wasn't the mechs itself. That can be overcome. It was the caliber of their pilots. Simply put, clan pilots were better at fighting (But atrocious at actually waging war).
#19
Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:47 AM
JohanssenJr, on 01 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:
Timberwolf prime:
2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
1 Medium pulse laser
2x Machine guns w/1ton ammo
2x CLRM20s w/2tons ammo
CXL375
460 points of Ferro Armor
Head: 18
CT: 72
CT rear: 18
RT/LT: 50
RT/LT rear: 14
RA/LA: 48
RL/LL: 64
17DHS
Your precious Timberwolf Prime omnimech can only remove:
2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
2x CLRM20s w/2tons ammo
1ton MG ammo
That's 23 tons of weapons and ammo and 25 critical slots.
You can't remove a little here to add to there, you can't shift this heatsink there to here, you can't change your engine to go faster or slower, you can't add heatsinks to a mech that ONLY has 17 DHS (And with heat currently? It'd bake the pilot in minutes)...
I could go on but I'm sure I made my point.
Overall, what made the clans so deadly wasn't the mechs itself. That can be overcome. It was the caliber of their pilots. Simply put, clan pilots were better at fighting (But atrocious at actually waging war).
However, it should be noted that the base Mad Cat (representing all of the 'Mech's "fixed"/"hard-wired" equipment) actually has 27.5 tons of pod space, with the 29 to 33 open criticals (depending on actuator presence/absence) laid out as depicted on the record sheet provided at the link and reproduced below.
(Note that Hand Actuators and Lower Arm Actuators are considered to be Onmi Pods, and can be added or removed as easily as any other.)
#20
Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:58 AM
JohanssenJr, on 01 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:
Accurate, but I'd be surprised if they released omnimechs with less customisation than IS mechs, since that's their strength and all.
JohanssenJr, on 01 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:
2xER medium lasers
1 Medium pulse laser
Frankly this is the big balancer for MWO as it stands. If Clans are restricted to Clanner weaponry everything will be ER. They will then get one shot to kill the enemy, before they melt into a pile of slag, especially if you limit their number of HS, or god forbid force them to use current 3-slot 1.4 'double' heatsinks.
IMO the ideal balancing factor for Clanstuff will be numerical. Two IS Lances vs a Clan Star (that's 8 vs 5 for the unititated) will, given the nature of a real-time shooter with aiming and whatnot, be plenty of compensation for moar dakka.
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