23 replies to this topic

[topgun505]

Bear in mind something regarding Clan units.

There are two types. Second-line units which are essentially the same as IS mechs just with better/more efficient equipment but there is not necessarily any limits regarding construction of them which means they can be modded freely… and Omnimechs … which is what everyone is drooling over.

But.

Omnimechs are NOT as open as you think (depending on how they are implemented). For example, you can NOT remove the engine in an Omnimech and replace it with another. Also. Not all weapons are always in the modular pods. Any weapons which are mounted on the chassis itself can NOT be removed/replaced. If the Devs are smart about it … in order to ease balance issues … they will allow only standard variant modules to be purchased.

Example:
Puma (Adder)– Prime: Comes with a Flamer in the CT as part of the chassis and has 2 ERPPC (1 in an Omni module in each arm).

Puma (Adder) – A: Comes with a Flamer in the CT as part of the chassis and has a LRM-20 in a module in the left arm, another in an identical module in the right arm, a Small Pulse Laser in a module in the left torso and another in a module in the right torso.

So when you buy the Puma, for example, you would initially be buying the Prime variant. From there you could buy an Alpha package which includes all the modules (two LRM-20 modules and 2 small pulse modules) to construct the Alpha makeup.

You couldn’t just rip off the 2 LRM-20s and use the extra tonnage to throw on 10 medium lasers in the side torso modules because there is no purchasable module that has all those lasers in it. You would (potentially) have to just use whatever modules were available between the variants for the chassis. For most Omnimechs this would still allow for a wide variety and flexibility considering most Omnis have around 6 or more variants and thus a good number of modules/weapons available.

Example modules that would be available for the Puma:

1x ERPPC
1x LRM-20
1x Small pulse laser
1x LB5-X
1x ER Medium laser
1x Large pulse laser
1x LRM-15
1x Medium pulse laser
1x Narc launcher
1x ER Large laser
1x SSRM-2
1x UAC-5
1x ATM-9
2x Micro pulse laser
1x Heavy large laser
4x AP Gauss rifle
1x HAG-20

At least, that’s how they could limit them so they don’t become a developers’ game-balance nightmare.

If they go with the true intent of the Omnimechs then yes, you could rip off the LRM-20s in the arms and use the tonnage to load up a crap ton of any weapon you wanted into the modular side torso spots. In which case boating will become utterly rampant and it will be impossible to keep the game balanced at which point things pretty much go down in flames.

[pcunite]

The game of chess works because you get what you get and there is only one Queen. Maybe, just maybe we should have a game mode option in which mechs are preconfigured.

[Norris J Packard]

Step 1. Disallow Mixtech for IS Battlemechs.
Step 2. Enforce heavy restrictions regarding equipment and internals just like in TT.
Step 3. OmniMechs occupy 2 drop slots instead of one.

Congrats, the game's saved.

[Kobold]

Norris J Packard, on 31 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Step 1. Disallow Mixtech for IS Battlemechs.
Step 2. Enforce heavy restrictions regarding equipment and internals just like in TT.
Step 3. OmniMechs occupy 2 drop slots instead of one.

1. Mixtech doesn't make sense for the era anyways.
2. The restrictions aren't very heavy, but yeah, I expect them to continue using standard construction rules.
3. Would rather have BV. But I actually WANT the clan tech to be significantly better. I want to see some 12 v. 10 Assault companies against medium/heavy binaries.

Edited by Kobold, 31 January 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[Deamhan]

pcunite, on 31 January 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

The game of chess works because you get what you get and there is only one Queen. Maybe, just maybe we should have a game mode option in which mechs are preconfigured.

Each pawn that reaches the other end of the board can be turned into a queen.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Limiting people to standard configurations defeats the purpose of an Omnimech. Unlimited customizeation within the limits of the pod space and criticals available is the asset of Omnimechs.

[topgun505]

While I agree with you Nathan to a point ... that may be true in the TT ... but for the sake of game balance here we may have to stray from that to some degree. Heck ... you could argue that how the mechlab works currently is how it should work for Clan Omnimechs ... and for normal IS mechs it should probably work like a combination of MW3 and here where you have hardpoint types AND slot limits for each hardpoint so you couldn't, for example, rip out a MG and throw in a Gauss Rifle as there wouldn't be enough crit spaces open to do so.

But unless they are planning to do a massive change in the mechlab (very unlikely) we are stuck working with what we already have. And just opening it up to put anything within a body location would likely get very abused very quickly.

You think people complain NOW about Streakcats before and now Splatcats? Imagine what a Clan player could do with more heatsinks since they take up less room, and a boated SRM-6 or (God forbid, SSRM-6 racks) which are far lighter than their IS counterparts.

At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say no more.

If you insist on just opening it up to allow any modifications within modular spaces ... I'd have to recommend adding a game type that only permit Stock mechs only so when people get tired of facing off for the hundredth time against an uber cheese build they at least have something to fall back to give themselves a bit of a break.

[AceTimberwolf]

Ｓｏ　ａ　ＭＷ４　ｓｔｙｌｅ　Ｓｅｔｕｐ？

[CrashieJ]

I would love to see Clan Omni-mechs have "locked" weapons where a Puma might have a locked Medium laser or two and you have to build either around it, or with it.

there are ways to balance clan mechs with IS mechs while keeping it fun, we just need to actually find and test all of them out, it we don't like it, then we change it.

it is still... *gripes*... beta.

[Dirkdaring]

Clan LRM20s + tag. No minimum range, less tonnage less crit space. No need to use anything else.

[Kasiagora]

As much uneasiness as I have about the thought of Clans coming along and breaking MW:O like... when the Clans came along and broke the IS... If we go omni mech up in here, I'll be fine with restrictions on the weapons pods. I hope that they are restricted as you say. I'll just be happy with an Alt Config. B Mad Dog (Vulture). The only modification I would do to that mech –and it's by no means necessary– was that I made one that swapped out the ER Large Lasers for an UAC/5 from a Timberwolf (Mad Cat) Alt. Config. C to keep heat down. And I'd happily give the ability to do that up for the sake of balance and accuracy to the rules.
Looking at it and seeing that the primary config Nova (Black Hawk) costs more than the average Atlas, and whenever repairs are brought back, I think Omni mechs might not be all that common on the battlefield however I wouldn't be surprised to see a bunch of IICs running around. Especially since the basic model rendering could be reworked versions of some of the mechs that we already have. I think this paragraph is getting off subject though. Apologies if it leads to derailment. >.<

Edited by Kasiagora, 31 January 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[Sug]

AceTimberwolf, on 31 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

Ｓｏ　ａ　ＭＷ４　ｓｔｙｌｅ　Ｓｅｔｕｐ？

Pretty much yes. Give them a mixture of fixed type hardpoints (energy, missile, ballistic) and Omni points that can mount any weapon type.

Example: Timberwolf has missile hardpoints in the torso and Omni hardpoints in it's arms.

This will allow customization without enabling ridiculous boating.

[AceTimberwolf]

Dirkdaring, on 31 January 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Clan LRM20s + tag. No minimum range, less tonnage less crit space. No need to use anything else.

Remember C.LRM has no indirect fire. Tag Would be good but you gotta get out of cover to use them

Sug, on 31 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Pretty much yes. Give them a mixture of fixed type hardpoints (energy, missile, ballistic) and Omni points that can mount any weapon type.

Example: Timberwolf has missile hardpoints in the torso and Omni hardpoints in it's arms.

This will allow customization without enabling ridiculous boating.

Yea that sounds fine with me

[LoganMkv]

I don't get why people keep trying to invent a wheel with clantech.

Clantech is not supposed to be fair or balanced in any other way than cost/limit, be it IS mechs with clan weapons or clan omnimechs. Couple of omnimechs cost as much as a bunch of rusty IS mediums, and in some cases they would be much less effective, that's it.

[Norris J Packard]

Kobold, on 31 January 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

1. Mixtech doesn't make sense for the era anyways.
2. The restrictions aren't very heavy, but yeah, I expect them to continue using standard construction rules.
3. Would rather have BV. But I actually WANT the clan tech to be significantly better. I want to see some 12 v. 10 Assault companies against medium/heavy binaries.

BV would be impossible to setup, MWO doesn't have the playerbase for it. It's not a reasonable matchmaking system.

[MustrumRidcully]

They will invariably lead to a balancing nightmare, no matter the restrictions you add. Fundamentally, each Clan weapon is superior to its iS equivalent. More damage, more range, less weight, less crits. You can make it awkward getting Clan tech and installing it, but barring some significant reworking of all weapon stats, you can't balance it.

Your best hope is a match-making system that can handle it.

[Strum Wealh]

AceTimberwolf, on 01 February 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Remember C.LRM has no indirect fire. Tag Would be good but you gotta get out of cover to use them

Incorrect.
All normal LRM launchers (IS and Clan) have indirect-fire capability.

it is the ATM launchers (available in 3060) and Streak LRM launchers (available in 3057) - both of which are Clan-exclusive tech - that are incapable of indirect fire, not the standard LRM launchers.

Norris J Packard, on 31 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Step 1. Disallow Mixtech for IS Battlemechs.
Step 2. Enforce heavy restrictions regarding equipment and internals just like in TT.
Step 3. OmniMechs occupy 2 drop slots instead of one.

Congrats, the game's saved.

I don't think (3) is necessary, but I agree that (1) and (2) should be implemented.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Omnimechs are balanced against Battlemechs in their own way. Everything is hardwired into the mech save the critical slots and weapons in the omnipod. No modifying armor values, no moving around heat sinks, no adding or removing heat sinks, no changing the engine, even some weapons... In truth, if they go with the TT way for omnimechs they'd have far less customization than the current setup for our IS mechs (which isn't canon, btw).

Timberwolf prime:
2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
1 Medium pulse laser
2x Machine guns w/1ton ammo
2x CLRM20s w/2tons ammo
CXL375
460 points of Ferro Armor
Head: 18
CT: 72
CT rear: 18
RT/LT: 50
RT/LT rear: 14
RA/LA: 48
RL/LL: 64
17DHS

Your precious Timberwolf Prime omnimech can only remove:
2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
2x CLRM20s w/2tons ammo
1ton MG ammo

That's 23 tons of weapons and ammo and 25 critical slots.

You can't remove a little here to add to there, you can't shift this heatsink there to here, you can't change your engine to go faster or slower, you can't add heatsinks to a mech that ONLY has 17 DHS (And with heat currently? It'd bake the pilot in minutes)...

I could go on but I'm sure I made my point.

Overall, what made the clans so deadly wasn't the mechs itself. That can be overcome. It was the caliber of their pilots. Simply put, clan pilots were better at fighting (But atrocious at actually waging war).

[Strum Wealh]

JohanssenJr, on 01 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

Omnimechs are balanced against Battlemechs in their own way. Everything is hardwired into the mech save the critical slots and weapons in the omnipod. No modifying armor values, no moving around heat sinks, no adding or removing heat sinks, no changing the engine, even some weapons... In truth, if they go with the TT way for omnimechs they'd have far less customization than the current setup for our IS mechs (which isn't canon, btw).

Timberwolf prime:
2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
1 Medium pulse laser
2x Machine guns w/1ton ammo
2x CLRM20s w/2tons ammo
CXL375
460 points of Ferro Armor
Head: 18
CT: 72
CT rear: 18
RT/LT: 50
RT/LT rear: 14
RA/LA: 48
RL/LL: 64
17DHS

Your precious Timberwolf Prime omnimech can only remove:
2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
2x CLRM20s w/2tons ammo
1ton MG ammo

That's 23 tons of weapons and ammo and 25 critical slots.

You can't remove a little here to add to there, you can't shift this heatsink there to here, you can't change your engine to go faster or slower, you can't add heatsinks to a mech that ONLY has 17 DHS (And with heat currently? It'd bake the pilot in minutes)...

I could go on but I'm sure I made my point.

Overall, what made the clans so deadly wasn't the mechs itself. That can be overcome. It was the caliber of their pilots. Simply put, clan pilots were better at fighting (But atrocious at actually waging war).

Indeed.

However, it should be noted that the base Mad Cat (representing all of the 'Mech's "fixed"/"hard-wired" equipment) actually has 27.5 tons of pod space, with the 29 to 33 open criticals (depending on actuator presence/absence) laid out as depicted on the record sheet provided at the link and reproduced below.
(Note that Hand Actuators and Lower Arm Actuators are considered to be Onmi Pods, and can be added or removed as easily as any other.)

[Gaan Cathal]

JohanssenJr, on 01 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

Omnimechs are balanced against Battlemechs in their own way. Everything is hardwired into the mech save the critical slots and weapons in the omnipod. No modifying armor values, no moving around heat sinks, no adding or removing heat sinks, no changing the engine, even some weapons... In truth, if they go with the TT way for omnimechs they'd have far less customization than the current setup for our IS mechs (which isn't canon, btw).

Accurate, but I'd be surprised if they released omnimechs with less customisation than IS mechs, since that's their strength and all.

JohanssenJr, on 01 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

2xER Large lasers
2xER medium lasers
1 Medium pulse laser

Frankly this is the big balancer for MWO as it stands. If Clans are restricted to Clanner weaponry everything will be ER. They will then get one shot to kill the enemy, before they melt into a pile of slag, especially if you limit their number of HS, or god forbid force them to use current 3-slot 1.4 'double' heatsinks.


IMO the ideal balancing factor for Clanstuff will be numerical. Two IS Lances vs a Clan Star (that's 8 vs 5 for the unititated) will, given the nature of a real-time shooter with aiming and whatnot, be plenty of compensation for moar dakka.