452 replies to this topic

[Livebait]

"Well, I like the game now more than I did when it was LRMwarrior Online. I guess it's a step up."

The strange thing is that PGI made all kinds of weird and dumb changes to LRM's. I remember when LRM's were a great and fun weapon for suppressive fire. Not too OP. And then out of the blue they made the damage very high. In one patch they made LRM's able to melt mechs in seconds. Very odd.

[DocBach]

Livebait, on 02 February 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

"Well, I like the game now more than I did when it was LRMwarrior Online. I guess it's a step up."

The strange thing is that PGI made all kinds of weird and dumb changes to LRM's. I remember when LRM's were a great and fun weapon for suppressive fire. Not too OP. And then out of the blue they made the damage very high. In one patch they made LRM's able to melt mechs in seconds. Very odd.

Yeah, balance in moderation doesn't seem to be a skill PGI has mastered quite yet.

[Caleb Lee]

cdlord, on 01 February 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

This is buried so no one will probably see it but as it stands, ECM is improperly implemented.

In MWO ECM does the job of 3 pieces of equipment for the price of one. Instead of one ECM module we should be seeing:
Guardian ECM
Angel ECM
Null Signature

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM
http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System

Pretty much what he said. As it stands ECM is the opposite equivalent of the Artemis rain of death with regards to game changing balance in the absolute wrong direction.

All I can say is our unit participation has dropped off mostly due to ECM and no class matching/battle value system/tonnage limit on 8 man drops. Our experience post ECM implementation was all DDC or Raven mixed teams. You want to tell me this is balanced or fair? We're used to running mixed units that have realistic makeup from leagues like NBT and so on.

Whether I'm playing with my unit, 4 man pugs on comms or lonewolf the sheer information denial that ECM brings to the game for a 1.5 ton 2 slot item is just flat out stupid.

Either fix ECM like the post I quoted or at least just make ECM reduce the range at which you can lock on, then have BAP as a direct counter. No stacking, just a single ECM does the job and if you have two it spreads out the area coverage but a single ECM can counter no matter how many ECM are in the area. THAT makes sense... PPCs are not the answer. Like sticking a band-aid on a gaping wound.

[Caleb Lee]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

"What do you mean? ECM diversifies the game play! Learn to play!"

I'm not even going to try and guess why you would slap him down with L2P. ECM does diversify the game, but it's current state is absolutely as bad as Artemis 'death rain' was right before it. It's game breaking and not even remotely implemented like any other MW game, TT, or cannon. It's complete denial of information and their solutions for an always on 1.5 ton 2 slot item so far?

1) Extend tag to 750 meters which takes up an energy slot and you have to continuously paint the target. ECM is always on, and AOE. If a target drops behind cover a team has to 'guess' which one to shoot at once it pops up again until someone paints it again.
2) PPC - Upcoming patch will require a 7 ton high heat weapon to slightly disrupt ECM for a few seconds. Maybe good against DDCs.
3) ECM - The only real counter but it requires at least one more ECM mech or equal than the other team has. Currently there is no BV/Tonnage or class matching that takes ECM into account. It's also completely unrealistic from a MW perspective as ECM was incredibly rare.

Really? CDLord posted a very nice concise reason and links to Sarna explaining just why the 3-n-1 implementation is so completely and utterly broken. If they were going to only implement one ECM type they should have just made it reduce target distance with BAP as a hard counter.

Everything in the game needs a counter and right now the only thing that truly counters ECM is itself which contrary to what people are saying does NOT diversify the game.

So I'll turn this back around on you... instead of L2P how about do you really care if the game loses so much interest that it tanks? That's the direction it's going if they don't fix things in matchmaker, ECM and actually balance the game better than it currently is. I think they are headed in the general right direction and am being patient but many of our guys have simply given up on the game for now.

[Odins Fist]

Dreepa, on 01 February 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

"The Ecm Feature: Aftermath"

.
ANSWER: Crying, and lots of it....

[DocBach]

Caleb Lee, on 02 February 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

caleb's well thought out but premature response

The quotations were me imitating the arguments people made earlier in this thread, claiming that ECM has been a great advancement for diversity in this game, and that everyone dissatisfied with ECM just needed to learn how to play.

[Umbra8]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

The quotations were me imitating the arguments people made earlier in this thread, claiming that ECM has been a great advancement for diversity in this game, and that everyone dissatisfied with ECM just needed to learn how to play.

I understood where you were coming from as I noticed you had liked my post (thanks) but yeah, you should really throw the /sarcasm flag on there just so people don't misconstrue your meaning.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's recently become LRM storm online again, due to 4 man teams, especially the American ones, using a combination of LRM boats+ECM.

Because they never balanced LRMs and Streaks properly. They just threw ECM at it and hoped it would fix the problem. But in reality all it did was create a horrible dependency on ECM.

It's only gonna get worse with Clan Streak6s and Clan LRMs with no min range. Missile need to be balanced without ECM. And ECM needs to be more comparable to the other 1.5 ton pieces of equipment in the game. It should be useful but not compulsory.

[nksharp]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Yeah, balance in moderation doesn't seem to be a skill PGI has mastered quite yet.

Doing nothing seems to be their strong point. I don't even see them ever changing ECM for a long time coming which is a shame currently. Playing a light mech is now a game of attrition rather then skill I feel which becomes boring.

[Livebait]

@nksharp

Remember, collision is coming back! Light mechs will fall down if the pilot is not skilled. ECM can not save a mech laying on the ground. I'm very curious to see what happens when collision is brought back in. We all know the wailing will be monumental.

[Gammanoob]

Collision will be great, but it won't fix most of the problems with ECM...

[FrostPaw]

I'm mostly angry I hit premium start time a week before ECM was patched in.

The fact they put in a ridiculously over powered and unbalancing 1.5t piece of equipment was disappointing but I was ok with it for short term testing. The fact I appeared to be "paying" for the privelidge of playing in matches with it just pissed me off. I did think "oh well they'll change it soon" but 2 months later...still the same.

Looks like they'll be making no changes to it before my premium time runs out...I think I might just take a break then.

[IrrelevantFish]

Ursh, on 02 February 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

ECM would have to jam an ungodly number of frequencies to achieve what it does now, which requires an enormous amount of power. Effectively, ECM should prevent the host mech, and most of it's neighbors, from using any communications or locking on radar at all.

First of all, ECM exists today that can do just about that (IIRC, the term to look up is "Wild Weasel").

And second, who cares? Just about everything about this game is unrealistic, starting with the idea that ground warfare would survive the advent of high-tonnage, surface-to-orbit cargo craft (the term to look up is "rods of god") and ending with the idea that if there were ground warfare, it would be fought with something as silly and impractical as mechs.

[MischiefSC]

Trying to get Atlas to Expert. I loved my D-DC but an atlas without ECM is a missile magnet. ECM makes such an insane, obvious, massive difference when you have it as opposed to when you don't. At least a 10% swing in win/loss rate for the team if not more. That's far more significant than any other piece of equipment.

I have an Atlas D-DC and I absolutely, without questions and whole heartedly believe that ECM is wacky insane out of balance. It should block Artemis, SSRM lock, beagle Narc and C3 within range. You should be able to put a module in that lets you block your paper doll and another improved on that blocks paper doll for everyone in range. It should be available to any mech that wants to spend the weight and money on it.

LRMs should be 1 point per missile and have at best a 75% hit on target rate (like TT) unless you're tagging some poor ******* out in the open standing still. They should be considered a support weapon, not a primary kill weapon. SSRMs should fire like regular SRMs when you don't have (or can't get) a lock.

That's it. That would totally fix it. Amazingly enough it's exactly how TT is balanced and has years and years of testing already done successfully.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

I would wager this poll has been rigged by Codejack

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Khobai, on 02 February 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Because they never balanced LRMs and Streaks properly. They just threw ECM at it and hoped it would fix the problem. But in reality all it did was create a horrible dependency on ECM.

Thats about it right there.. balance lock on weapons properly and have ECM not affect their core functionality, but do allow it to block things that can enhance core functionality. They have two mechanics that are not correctly balanced trying to balance each other and all that does is create massive imbalance in favour of the side that stacks the two better.

[Kreisel]

I want to quantify my answer that I enjoy the game less with ECM, I would enjoy the game MORE that an game without ECM if it were balanced a little better. I was a Raven pilot since MW4... I want electronic warfare... but... I feel like I'm cheating when I pilot the mech I WANT to pilot because ECM does way more than I ever would have expected.

I would happily use ECM and think it was a powerful and worthwhile too if it did less than HALF of what it does now.

[Caleb Lee]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

The quotations were me imitating the arguments people made earlier in this thread, claiming that ECM has been a great advancement for diversity in this game, and that everyone dissatisfied with ECM just needed to learn how to play.

Good to know. Sorry, sometimes I don't have the time to read all the posts etc...

[CECILOFS]

I really get the impression that some people think this is an FPS and that only direct fire weapons should exist.

Sorry its not, its a mech combat simulator and indirect fire support is a valid role. They just need to get the balance right so that both play styles are viable. LRMs and Streaks need further balancing sure, but they have a right to be useful.

ECM atm is out of control and I think this poll shows that the majority agree.

[Hedonism Robot]

ECM was very poorly implemented and ruins the game flat out. I'm amazed that PGI leaves this item in the game despite the whole community hating it. But then again they still havent implemented any form of match making yet and refuse to make nerfs specific to variants that are broken strong.