452 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Mawai, on 12 February 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

LRMs and SSRMs are not balanced in my opinion (possibly SRMs too though I am not convinced). ECM reduces boating of these lock on weapons and forces weapon system diversification. This is a good thing ... but these weapons should not be balanced based on the presence of absence of ECM. If enough counters to ECM are introduced it will lose its effectiveness and the lock on missile systems will again become too effective.

LRMs and SSRMs should be balanced in line with other weapons ... then ECM can be balanced as an interesting addition ... not as a rock/paper/scissors type of counter measure.

GET OUT!! You are making too much sense.

Codejack, on 12 February 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I suggested just turning the tracking down, then letting Artemis, NARC and TAG be much more effective at buffing it. That way ECM would be useful just by countering those systems.

What a beautiful fix this would have been.

Fitzbattleaxe, on 12 February 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Take some match between two teams of relatively equal skill, and randomly add to any one mech some additional piece of equipment or weaponry. Now if it isn't ecm, that single item - even one of the larger weapons - isn't going to change that much. Sure, an extra large laser might mean the difference between victory and defeat, but what would have been a close match will probably still be a close match. Give a single mech ecm, though, and suddenly the entire dynamic of the match is altered, and what would have been a close match can suddenly become very one-sided. Now I have no trouble killing a single Raven 3L in a one-on-one fight, but in a team game if you suddenly lose all communication with your team apart from a little chat window that's hard to type in and read during the heat of battle, that's going to make all the difference. ECM is overpowered.

This is how balance should be done, on a theoretical level from multiple pov. The problem is that, when PGI plays MWO, they only 4 man drop and use TS. As seen in the twitch.tv matches. It's been noted several times that the affects of ECM are mostly negated by communication (over TS). From their point of view, the only thing that must be countered is LRM block, which is negated fairly easily by TAG. This limited point of view, however, is noninclusive because it leaves out pugs and new players.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 February 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[Coole]

I don't know how to answer this. A little less feature? A lot more feature? How can I quantify the ECM features?

[Tie Ma]

doesn't seem like they are going to change it.
http://nogutsnogalax...-8-paul-inouye/

"adapt to it, with battlefield tactics."

lol i play with ECM. i have no problems playing against ECM.


but its STUPID. how much value it does for the price. Its a logical/value issue. not a getting pwnd by ECM problem. All mechs capable of carrying ECM. Have ECM. there is no alternatives for that 1.5 tons. besides putting ECM there.
its not balanced.


i guess they are just goign to ignore. the arguments people throw around, about how if its between AMS and ECM, nobody would carry AMS. how nobody would bring BAP over ECM.

Edited by Tie Ma, 12 February 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Garth Erlam, on 12 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

I think what he's saying is that in the TT, LRM's were fired at a location; in MWO they can be locked on to a target.

So, LRM have been incorrectly implemented in MWO. Are their any plans to fix them?

Tie Ma, on 12 February 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

doesn't seem like they are going to change it.
http://nogutsnogalax...-8-paul-inouye/

"adapt to it, with battlefield tactics."

Oh well, back to my D-DC then. Win-win situation for me; I keep exploiting broken mechanics until the devs come to their senses.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 February 2013 - 05:32 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Tie Ma, on 12 February 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

doesn't seem like they are going to change it.
http://nogutsnogalax...-8-paul-inouye/

"adapt to it, with battlefield tactics."

lol i play with ECM. i have no problems playing against ECM.


but its STUPID. how much value it does for the price. Its a logical/value issue. not a getting pwnd by ECM problem. All mechs capable of carrying ECM. Have ECM. there is no alternatives for that 1.5 tons. besides putting ECM there.
its not balanced.


i guess they are just goign to ignore. the arguments people throw around, about how if its between AMS and ECM, nobody would carry AMS. how nobody would bring BAP over ECM.

I still can't believe they are essentially ignoring and band-aiding ECM. It's probably the most brazen thing i've seen out of a dev team in 20 years of gaming.

[Tennex]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 12 February 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

I still can't believe they are essentially ignoring and band-aiding ECM. It's probably the most brazen thing i've seen out of a dev team in 20 years of gaming.

it says in the interview. seems like paul isn't exactly a Btech fan. i hope some of the mechanics decisions arn't made by him. cuz ECM right now is just not Balanced. nor is it canon

[Fajther]

I think the devs need to see this.

[Kousagi]

PGI has seen the thread, one even talked in it...

Tennex, How is MWO's ECM not canon? and why does it matter if it is, or is not canon?

[Rahnu]

All this talk about canonicity and TT rules is... well, I don't even know how to say it nicely. "Missing the point", I guess?

I find this fascination with the rules of a turn-based tabletop game relative to a REAL-TIME COMPUTER SIMULATION to be very bizarre indeed. Is it not true that a turn-based game requires certain abstractions in order to actually function as a game? And why would these abstractions ever be relevant when translating that game into a real-time simulator format?

What's really important here is that LOADS of players (214 vs 399 by the current count) do NOT favor the current implementation of ECM as it stands, and something MUST be done. Not only do the players obviously not enjoy this feature, the feature itself is very obviously overpowered by any measurement you can possibly make. Compared to ANY OTHER MODULE IN THE ENTIRE GAME the Guardian ECM does more per ton, period, end of story. There is literally not a single module you can fit that will turn the tide of battle as much as the ECM. Not a single one.

It is very easy to lose faith in the devs when their decisions fly in the face of both reality AND public perception. How can you possibly be that dense? How is that even possible?!

[Tennex]

Kousagi, on 12 February 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

PGI has seen the thread, one even talked in it...

Tennex, How is MWO's ECM not canon? and why does it matter if it is, or is not canon?

because in canon. all items are balanced in tonnage/effect relative to other items.

for example, in canon ECM doesn't do what null sig does. and null sig does what it does at the cost of 10 persistent heat, a bunch of critical slots and does not have an AoE...

but **** lets scrap TT balance. and just lob things that are carefully weighted tonage/value ratio. and combine them together. for the lowest cost!

Edited by Tennex, 12 February 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[Kousagi]

Tennex, on 12 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

because in canon. all items are balanced in tonnage/effect relative to other items.

for example, in canon ECM doesn't do what null sig does. and null sig does what it does at the cost of 10 persistent heat. and does not have an AoE...

*sigh* ECM does effect sensors... just like Null sig does. Its in the rules... In both Battletech and Mechwarrior. The 10 persistent heat is not from the radar part of null sig, its from the thermal masking part of null sig, just like how steath armor gets the same con, since its a thermal mask as well...

If you are going to quote rules or canon, at least know them...

Edited by Kousagi, 12 February 2013 - 06:09 PM.

[Tennex]

Kousagi, on 12 February 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

*sigh* ECM does effect sensors... just like Null sig does. Its in the rules... In both Battletech and Mechwarrior. The 10 persistent heat is not from the radar part of null sig, its from the thermal masking part of null sig, just like how steath armor gets the same con, since its a thermal mask as well...

If you are going to quote rules or canon, at least know them...

does it really matter what the 10 heat is from? as long as if you have that item. for that effect it costs 10 heat.

null sig masks heat sig. and radar. for a combined cost of 10 heat. but lets ignore that. and say that the radar masking is free (cuz u know all of a sudden we are sci fi engineers and know how a stealth armor system works and what part of which effect costs how much heat). so we can justify ECM. pro logic right there.

i suppse you are going to say the critical slots are all for the heat masking component of it too? LOOL

Edited by Tennex, 12 February 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[MischiefSC]

ECM punishes pugs is what it really comes down to, new players even more so. LRMs are OPed and so ECM is OPed to, I guess, balance it?

Skilled teams deal with ECM just fine. The 10 to 15% of the games population they represent have no issues with it. In fact so much so that it's pretty much a non-issue for them to hear about it. For the remaining 85 to 90% it represents varying degrees of dissatisfaction.

Make LRMs do 1 point each. Make them fly faster and spread a bit more so that even a solid 'hit' is only going to put 70% of them on target so to speak unless the victim is terribly unlucky and no AMS. An LRM boat should not be as big a threat as a dual AC 20 cat on the battlefield. Artemis/Tag/NARC will make more missiles hit. However cut their 'travel time' by 30-50% so that even at long, long range if you get locked and fired upon by LRMs you're almost certain to take some damage. That is exactly how they worked in TT and to good effect - they were a great weapon for softening a target up at range. That's why they have a minimum range as well.

Make ECM block TAG, BAP, Artemis, NARC and make Streaks in their radius fire like regular SRMs. Make it delay missile lockon to people in the radius.

Let ECM have modules that will block A) the paper doll of the one using it and B ) tier 2 upgrade module that blocks paperdoll of everyone in radius. NOT RADAR LOCK, just paperdoll.

Make BAP see people regardless of intervening obstacles within its radius. Make NARC benefit everyone on your team and show up separate as a target - if you get NARCed then breaking LOS doesn't break target lock and makes missiles group better on you.

Make TAG about giving a bonus to hit for missiles and let TAGed targets show up with a special reticule to your teammates. It would be an awesome tool for helping coordinate fire, especially missile fire then.

Suddenly ECM is a valid battlefield tool along side all the others, balanced in its own right. Not something that almost everyone hates to some degree that pretty much screws pugs and doesn't mean a whole lot to teams, who just stack it over everyone anyway.

It's broken. Please fix it. Please.

Edited by MischiefSC, 12 February 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Kousagi]

Tennex, on 12 February 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

does it really matter what the 10 heat is from? as long as if you have that item. for that effect it costs 10 heat.

null sig masks heat sig. and radar. for a combined cost of 10 heat. but lets ignore that. and say that the radar masking is free (cuz u know all of a sudden we are sci fi engineers and know how a stealth armor system works and what part of which effect costs how much heat). so we can justify ECM. pro logic right there.

Nope, its not ignored, because Stealth armor is the other half... Stealth armor with ECM is a cheap version of Null sig. Its a part of canon... Stealth armor gets the 10 heat cost when active, just like null sig...

Again, if you don't know canon, don't quote it.

edit: also forgot to add... that you know, the fluff text flat out says that the heat baffles are what is constricting the heat sinks making them next to worthless, which is the cause of the extra heat.. but hey! you like to quote canon without knowing it so.

Edited by Kousagi, 12 February 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[Tennex]

Kousagi, on 12 February 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Nope, its not ignored, because Stealth armor is the other half... Stealth armor with ECM is a cheap version of Null sig. Its a part of canon... Stealth armor gets the 10 heat cost when active, just like null sig...

Again, if you don't know canon, don't quote it.

"i suppse you are going to say the critical slots are all for the heat masking component of it too? LOOL"

your very convenient rebuttal ignores this point here.

[Kousagi]

Tennex, on 12 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

"i suppse you are going to say the critical slots are all for the heat masking component of it too? LOOL"

your very convenient rebuttal ignores this point here.

They are... since the crit slots are representing the modification to the heat sink system to hide the thermal image... but I mean, its not like the fluff text flat out says that or anything, cause you clearly know better.

[Tennex]

but hey lets play your game.

null sig costs 10 persistent heat and 7 critical slots.

according to you 10 persistent heat goes to heat sig shielding 0 goes to radar counter.
lets say half and half on crit slot. 3.5 crit slot for heat shield. 3.5 crit slot for radar counter.


oh snap! that still comes out to 0 heat and 3.5 crit slots for just the radar counter component!!! Damn logic is hard isn't it.

or wwould allocation the 7 critical slots to heat masking be more convenient for you. you know maybe every mech gets radar counter for a nice 0 heat and 0 crit slot. heck thats the only way to justify what ECM does right now.

Edited by Tennex, 12 February 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Orzorn]

Its important to keep in mind, Tennex and Kousagi, that ECM does not hinder missiles in any way in TT.

Adding that effect to ECM in MWO is no small change. Well, it is, because missiles working are directly attached to radar. ECM blocks radar in TT description and double blind rules, and thus does so in MWO, meaning no locks. Small change. Huge effect.

The issues come into play when you compare the TT gameplay to MWO. Missiles were simply fired and made a roll in the TT to see if they hit, adjusted to factors like enemy speed. But in MWO, an enemy moving certain speed does not make a roll, they will effectively dodge every missile. Locks are VERY important to missiles in MWO, both LRM and SSRM.

Having ECM effect them, because of the way missiles MUST use radar in MWO (where they do not in the TT) is a very large difference, and it gives ECM some incredible value for such a small package.

The system was set up for this, you know, with missiles being so reliant on radar in MWO. Implementing ECM as a radar blocking device also set it up as an anti-missile system.

Edited by Orzorn, 12 February 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Kousagi]

Tennex, on 12 February 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

but hey lets play your game.

null sig costs 10 persistent heat and 7 critical slots.

according to you 10 persistent heat goes to heat sig shielding 0 goes to radar counter.
lets say half and half on crit slot. 3.5 crit slot for heat shield. 3.5 crit slot for radar counter.


oh snap! that still comes out to 0 heat and 3.5 crit slots for just the radar counter component!!! Damn logic is hard isn't it.

Don't hurt your brain doing all that counting... Next up, count out why Stealth armor takes 12 crit slots but has no radar counter on it.... Oh wait, don't tell me you think stealth armor has a radar counter.... Also, why does null sig weight 0 tons?.... hmmm odd indeed.

[Tennex]

Kousagi, on 12 February 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Don't hurt your brain doing all that counting... Next up, count out why Stealth armor takes 12 crit slots but has no radar counter on it.... Oh wait, don't tell me you think stealth armor has a radar counter.... Also, why does null sig weight 0 tons?.... hmmm odd indeed.

stealth armor requires ECM to equip... for the 12 crit slots and 10 heat. it doesnt come free in TT... like it does in this game

everything you bring up destroys MWO's implementation of ECM.

Edited by Tennex, 12 February 2013 - 06:29 PM.