605 replies to this topic

[Stormwolf]

Jaroth Winson, on 08 February 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

What part of a batchall can you not comprehend? How is it rigged? They alert you to their presence, they let you know you will be attacked & ask for detailed listing of your troops. If you give it to them, they willingly reduce the number of warriors you will have to face. They give you time to prepare. This is in direct contrast to the IS who just start shooting. Come on now. This is getting ridiculous.

We even give them the option to pick the location where they want to fight.

Edited by Stormwolf, 08 February 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Exactly. That is NOT a sneak attack. How much more simpler does it have to explained?

[Corvus Antaka]

inbred test-tube babies.

enuff said.

[Gammanoob]

Jaroth Winson, on 08 February 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

What part of a batchall can you not comprehend? How is it rigged? They alert you to their presence, they let you know you will be attacked & ask for detailed listing of your troops. If you give it to them, they willingly reduce the number of warriors you will have to face. They give you time to prepare. This is in direct contrast to the IS who just start shooting. Come on now. This is getting ridiculous.

What part of the logistics of mobilizing an army don't you comprehend?

Batchall is great, but it still means that you have an often unprepared force being attacked by a prepared one that gives a brief but nowhere near enough time to prepare for combat.

For example if I tell you that in a week I expect you to be proficient in Swedish, I don't think you can argue that I gave you a fair chance. Even though I let you know exactly what I expected you to know and when the deadline for this task expired.

However, comparing to the IS is pointless, I am not arguing the IS is honorable or even good, nor do I hold any particular intelligence to it.

Jaroth Winson, on 08 February 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Exactly. That is NOT a sneak attack. How much more simpler does it have to explained?

Please point out where in exact words I have called it a sneak attack...what I have implied is that whilst it isn't a sneak attack it is still far from a "fair fight."

Edited by Gammanoob, 08 February 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

It was not you that said it was a sneak attack, it was Mike Silva. I thought you guys were building on his point. I get what you are saying because it is the same points he raised & I did say all of them were true. My problem was with the label. You have stated it is not one so I am good.

[Grey Black]

If you've ever read one of my posts about the clans, you would be forgiven for thinking I am anti-Clan. After all, they are inherently fascist, warmongering hypocrites at heart. However, I probably identity best with Clan Ghost Bear best out of any faction. Why? Well, to be honest, I adore the Clan ideals: earn your way, be the best, stay out of the politics, etc. However, this doesn't change the fact that the Clans, as a whole, basically told the Inner Sphere, "I'm never coming back! ", then next year coming back, kicking the door down and demanding their dinner served how they want it like a petulant child. In my opinion, the Clans lost their right to the Inner Sphere when they left. They are the archetypal 20-something, fresh home from college who demands things work their way. You want to punch them and say "When you own a house, you make the rules."

Again, II love the ideals of the non-Chaotic Stupid Clans (I'm looking at you, Steel Viper!). The way they go about it is so unappetizing that it makes me throw my lot in with the Barbarians than the Hipsters.

[qultar]

Grey Black, on 08 February 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

If you've ever read one of my posts about the clans, you would be forgiven for thinking I am anti-Clan. After all, they are inherently fascist, warmongering hypocrites at heart. However, I probably identity best with Clan Ghost Bear best out of any faction. Why? Well, to be honest, I adore the Clan ideals: earn your way, be the best, stay out of the politics, etc. However, this doesn't change the fact that the Clans, as a whole, basically told the Inner Sphere, "I'm never coming back! ", then next year coming back, kicking the door down and demanding their dinner served how they want it like a petulant child. In my opinion, the Clans lost their right to the Inner Sphere when they left. They are the archetypal 20-something, fresh home from college who demands things work their way. You want to punch them and say "When you own a house, you make the rules."

Again, II love the ideals of the non-Chaotic Stupid Clans (I'm looking at you, Steel Viper!). The way they go about it is so unappetizing that it makes me throw my lot in with the Barbarians than the Hipsters.

Try the kid comes back after 40 years to find there fokes and siblings still fighting.
So he desides to lay down the law

[Grey Black]

qultar, on 09 February 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Try the kid comes back after 40 years to find there fokes and siblings still fighting.
So he desides to lay down the law

Well,then here's the 22 Cbill question: Do you have a right to tell someone how to run their house if you don't live there? The Clans (at least the Crusaders) say yes. I don't have an answer, right or wrong here, but there lurks something very sinister in implication by answering yes too easily. Again, this is why I dislike the Clans.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

However, this doesn't change the fact that the Clans, as a whole, basically told the Inner Sphere, "I'm never coming back! ", then next year coming back, kicking the door down and demanding their dinner served how they want it like a petulant child.

Uh where did they say they were never coming back? Please point me to a reference from the source material.

You have completely missed the part as to WHY the Great Father left. It was to prevent the people under his charge, the SLDF from fracturing back to SS & GH thereby destroying the unity of the SLDF. HE predicted what was coming & because he was NOT a tyrant like some of the House leaders, when urged to press leadership of the IS because he had control of the only real army that was intact, he said NO.

He KNEW that war was coming. He hoped that by the time his descendants returned, mankind would have settled their disputes & be living in harmony. If that happened, the new SLDF would simply protect the populace from any external threats, should they present themselves. This is also the Warden view..............which is why I could never subscribe to it, because that did NOT happen. The SS bombed each other back to the Stone Age, the Ares Convention was a mockery, FOUR Succession Wars + the Kentares Massacre (do people who whine about the Clans even know what happened there?)

Looking forward to the So why do people not like the Inner Sphere? thread

[CoffiNail]

Jaroth Winson, on 09 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Looking forward to the So why do people not like the Inner Sphere? thread

Even better, we should start a House Specific, thread in each of the Houses forum sections. I mean, it would only be complimentary to have a 'Why do you hate <insert faction here>' in each of the other faction's threads, quiaff?

[Grey Black]

Jaroth Winson, on 09 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Uh where did they say they were never coming back? Please point me to a reference from the source material.

You have completely missed the part as to WHY the Great Father left. It was to prevent the people under his charge, the SLDF from fracturing back to SS &amp; GH thereby destroying the unity of the SLDF. HE predicted what was coming &amp; because he was NOT a tyrant like some of the House leaders, when urged to press leadership of the IS because he had control of the only real army that was intact, he said NO.

He KNEW that war was coming. He hoped that by the time his descendants returned, mankind would have settled their disputes &amp; be living in harmony. If that happened, the new SLDF would simply protect the populace from any external threats, should they present themselves. This is also the Warden view..............which is why I could never subscribe to it, because that did NOT happen. The SS bombed each other back to the Stone Age, the Ares Convention was a mockery, FOUR Succession Wars + the Kentares Massacre (do people who whine about the Clans even know what happened there?)

Looking forward to the So why do people not like the Inner Sphere? thread

I cannot give you a part of source material because your question only deals with that minor point. I continued my argument by stating my belief that the Clans left their claim to the Inner Sphere when they left, with the over the top example being a (perhaps not 100% )similar situation. I still await your refutation that someone has the right to tell someone how to run their house because, again, to say yes too quickly is very troubling.

[Stormwolf]

Grey Black, on 09 February 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

I cannot give you a part of source material because your question only deals with that minor point. I continued my argument by stating my belief that the Clans left their claim to the Inner Sphere when they left, with the over the top example being a (perhaps not 100% )similar situation. I still await your refutation that someone has the right to tell someone how to run their house because, again, to say yes too quickly is very troubling.

All the successor states are telling each other "how to run their house", what exactly puts them in the right when a third party shows up?

[Aaron DeChavilier]

CoffiNail, on 09 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Even better, we should start a House Specific, thread in each of the Houses forum sections. I mean, it would only be complimentary to have a 'Why do you hate <insert faction here>' in each of the other faction's threads, quiaff?

and watch how the majority laugh, joke, and show meme's...unlike in here where to not like the clans is some sort of sin that you must be punished for. Where Winson just dumps lore on you, and you get dozens of 'nuh uh!' posts that aren't facetious.

Stormwolf, on 09 February 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

All the successor states are telling each other "how to run their house", what exactly puts them in the right when a third party shows up?

Actually throughout the succession wars, the end goal was establishing the Star League with the victorious house being the head of it. During the Star League, most Houses operated as they do normally and the SL told no one what to do outside of combat. SLDF spent most of its time fighting the periphery, and the vast majority of the SLDF were house line units. So back to the end goal; if any one house established the Star League with him/herself as leader, it still wouldn't result in clan-styled invasion where whole planets are lost. The SL was a central government which had a Council; when did the Clans ever allow the local governments of conquered worlds a voice in any council? How about the fact that the clan taking over the planet also destroyed the local economy and dropped the caste system on everyone?

Now in terms of houses trying to 'tell each other how to live"
by 3025 we have the following:
Liao: fighting to even exist, loves controlling the St. Ives Compact.

Marik: Too busy trying to get organized to ever launch external wars. In fact Operation Geurrero was simply to reclaim worlds lost to them, and once that was accomplished they stopped advancing. This left Liao in the wind forcing the Capellans to cease their end of the operation as well.

Steiner: Makes too much damn money to care about total conquest, their danger is their economy because it buy the best defense, and buys more than one politician.

Davion: Maybe would fall under this category, but even then if the Davions are taking over its just replacing one remote house lord with another. The davion economic system is relatively similar to all the other houses. Taxes may change, but the market doesn't. Davions don't come in and just declare everyone slaves in a caste system.

Kurita: Just checks Davion expansion. They don't really go after Steiner that much.

long story short - clans coming in and taking over is worse than any IS house because the economy is completely undercut, someone orders you to work a job not because its patriotic (ie Liao) but because some guy in power armor says so. You cannot petition the ruling class for anything because they are a higher caste than you, popular revolts are just outright crushed.

Lastly, coming in and forcing someone to live like you order them betrays the ideals of the Star League. The whole clan system is a betrayal of what the Star League was supposed to stand for. The fact that many clan players don't seem to accept that is itself troubling.

[Grey Black]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 February 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Lastly, coming in and forcing someone to live like you order them betrays the ideals of the Star League. The whole clan system is a betrayal of what the Star League was supposed to stand for. The fact that many clan players don't seem to accept that is itself troubling.

Someone doesn't care about the Periphery...

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 February 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Actually throughout the succession wars, the end goal was establishing the Star League with the victorious house being the head of it. During the Star League, most Houses operated as they do normally and the SL told no one what to do outside of combat. SLDF spent most of its time fighting the periphery, and the vast majority of the SLDF were house line units. So back to the end goal; if any one house established the Star League with him/herself as leader, it still wouldn't result in clan-styled invasion where whole planets are lost.

I seriously doubt that any enemy houses would be left intact if any Successor State took over. The best example here is the 4th succesion war, the Capellan Confederation would have pretty much been annexed by the Fed Com. They would have eventually taken over the entire Inner Sphere if it wasn't for the Clan invasion. This was also discussed by Comstar in some of the early novels.

Quote

The SL was a central government which had a Council; when did the Clans ever allow the local governments of conquered worlds a voice in any council? How about the fact that the clan taking over the planet also destroyed the local economy and dropped the caste system on everyone?

Aidan Pride went to Comstar to deal with people who would have potentially killed their own children. He went out of his way to talk to them instead of just firing a arrow IV at them.

Clan Ghost Bear and Wolf pretty much left the administrations of the worlds they conquered intact. They even gave them supplies from the Clan homeworlds to help out.

In time they even created more jobs by producing Clan tech in the IS.

Quote

Now in terms of houses trying to 'tell each other how to live"


by 3025 we have the following:
Liao: fighting to even exist, loves controlling the St. Ives Compact.

Well, those guys are the evil space North Korea, having the Clans conquer them would have been a improvement.

Romano Liao (in the current timeline) had people killed simply because she was paranoid enough to see spies everywhere. The Clans are a bit more efficient in removing crazy leaders.

Quote

Marik: Too busy trying to get organized to ever launch external wars. In fact Operation Geurrero was simply to reclaim worlds lost to them, and once that was accomplished they stopped advancing. This left Liao in the wind forcing the Capellans to cease their end of the operation as well.

Marik has some other horrible things to answer for, most notably Thomas Marik.

Quote

Steiner: Makes too much damn money to care about total conquest, their danger is their economy because it buy the best defense, and buys more than one politician.

They also leave people to be picked apart by pirates and the Draconis Combine because they can't be bothered to send troops for their protection. And Katrina was more then happy to support Hanse in his endeavours and even sent him a nice bride to seal the deal.

Quote

Davion: Maybe would fall under this category, but even then if the Davions are taking over its just replacing one remote house lord with another. The davion economic system is relatively similar to all the other houses. Taxes may change, but the market doesn't. Davions don't come in and just declare everyone slaves in a caste system.

No, they just come in and take everything. They also have some pretty racist guys (Count Anton Vitios in particular) in the higher echelons of the goverment to lord over their new citizens.

Quote

Kurita: Just checks Davion expansion. They don't really go after Steiner that much.

Really? Ricol was rather hell bent on striking into the Lyran Commonwealth core worlds.

Quote

long story short - clans coming in and taking over is worse than any IS house because the economy is completely undercut, someone orders you to work a job not because its patriotic (ie Liao) but because some guy in power armor says so. You cannot petition the ruling class for anything because they are a higher caste than you, popular revolts are just outright crushed.

In Clan Smoke Jaguar they would be crushed, the more balanced Clans will actually work with all their castes. Clan Jade Falcon and Wolf are rather remarkable here since they want all their castes to be strong.

Quote

Lastly, coming in and forcing someone to live like you order them betrays the ideals of the Star League. The whole clan system is a betrayal of what the Star League was supposed to stand for. The fact that many clan players don't seem to accept that is itself troubling.

The memory of the Star League is different from the real Star League, it wasn't the paradise people believed it to be. The Periphery has quite a number of stories to tell about that.
The Clans want the new Star League to be stronger then the old one, to prevent the same mistakes from happening again. Draw your own conclusions if this could have truely been achieved would they have succeeded.

[MilitantMonk]

I think there's lots of confusion about strategic surprise and tactical suprise in regards to the invasion in this thread.

[Aidan Prydee]

Oh how much i love that. If the fans of one side be it clans or inner sphere wouldn't dislike the opposite faction, the whole battletech universe would loose much of its immersion. And it is always a pleasure to read threads like this one. The emotions everyone lives while defending and/or attacking the others show how much they love the universe. Just awesome!



I like the clans only because the first novels in the battletech saga i read was the legend of the jadephoenix. From then it was all up with me... hehe

Edited by Aidan Prydee, 19 February 2013 - 01:35 AM.

[Koshirou]

Well, I dislike pretty much the entire post-3025 story line, of which the Clans are just the most striking feature: It is for the most part badly written, poorly thought out and throws the original setting out of the window for no reason at all.

I don't so much object to the Clans (and the 4th Succession War) in principle, but in how they were played out. In-universe events happened far too quickly and by that broke the setting's internal consistency as well as plain old logic.
I'll freely admit that several elements of what breaks the setting were already present in the 3025 materials. For example, th population of the Inner Sphere is far too high for the universe to work as described. But the Clan Invasion really made things worse to the point where even massive handwaving could not salvage a halfway plausible setting from the wreckage.

I don't know what the causes for this were. Some people say everything was planned ahead of time. I doubt that very much, seeing as how the setting was only beginning to get fleshed out in the early years and quite obviously, the writers continually modified their ideas. For example, in the original boxed set, it was stated that BattleMechs could no longer be produced. In Mechwarrior (the RPG) and the TRO 3025, it was implied that they could be produced on a limited basis, and in the House Books this was considerably expanded so that all houses had a number of working BattleMech factories and could even design and construct 'Mechs from scratch. So if they weren't even sure about the basic 3025 setting at the beginning, I doubt they had very concrete ideas about the Clans - although I'll readily believe that the concept of an eventual "Return of Kerensky" was planned very early.

Much of what I dislike about the setting development coincided with the commission of the novel line. From the Warrior trilogy onward, the BTU was not really a setting to be played in anymore, but more of a backdrop for the increasingly soap-opera-ish novels which drove the events. In retrospective, even the best of them were mediocre (Wolves on the Border and Heir to the Dragon probably being the best as far as writing goes.) It's the kind of stuff you really devoured as a kid but which now makes you cringe, at least to me.

The problems are basically this:
- Too radical events in too short a timeframe, without meaningful opportunities to play in a current time period.
- Too focused on the actions of characters in novels.
- Abandoning the original "Fallen Empire" setting in favor of a "Newer, better, faster" one.

The first two could have been fixed by:
- Making the 4th Succession war last much longer both in-universe and IRL. Say until 3040 or so, with the 3039 war rolled into it. Ditto for the Clan Invasion. Instead of capturing worlds on a weekly schedule, make an invasion of a single planet take months - as it did in the pre-4thSW setting and as it makes sense. Keep in mind that even the Amaris civil war, fought by titanic armies which dwarfed any later conflicts, lasted more than a decade.
- Focus more on scenario packs, the Mechwarrior RPG line and perhaps organized play to foster fan participation and maybe even direction of the setting events.

Also:
- Population numbers of the IS would need to be drastically reduced. The total IS population should not be above 100 billion.

[Koshirou]

Oh, and as for "liking" the Clans as in actually admiring their culture etc.:

Are you freakin' kidding me?

[Orgasmo]

There is no "honour" in dueling an opponent in so called "fair" combat with mechs three centuries ahead in technology. It's like a medieval knight in plate armor wielding a steel longsword against a peasant with a pitchfork. Victor Steiner-Davion, under the Clans' own rules, handed them their ***** on a plate.