605 replies to this topic

[PaintedWolf]

Last you also have to keep in mind that the Fascist states operated under a bunch of pseudo-sciences. They did not know a lot abouts cells and DNA and cloning that we take for granted. The Germans for example believed that inheritance was literally in the blood or "germplasm" and even encouraged inbreeding to a certain extent. Literal blood was analyzed painstakingly by German scientists to find the "secret of inheritance".

The Clan's technology is real, and who knows what kind of effect that can have. Even the lower Castes have been through strict, methodical breeding programs for centuries. Whether that is ethical or not is a good question, but the fact is when such a program actually works it is very different then a pseudoscience. As different as say, actual medicine is from the bizarre alchemical sciences, bloodletting and Aristotelian essentialism of the Middle Ages.

I wouldn't agree that genetic engineering alone makes a group racist or fascist. I mean, farmers practice selective breeding, does that mean farmers are now fascist? Should we call GM Corn "Fascist Corn"?

[Stormwolf]

PaintedWolf, on 18 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

I wouldn't agree that genetic engineering alone makes a group racist or fascist. I mean, farmers practice selective breeding, does that mean farmers are now fascist? Should we call GM Corn "Fascist Corn"?

This got a good chuckle out of me.

[IceGryphon]

Two major reasons myself.
1. CAST SYSTEM. (born a laborer, die a laborer)
2. EUGENICS. (people who believe this are going down a dangerous path)

They are foolish by trying to implement rules in warfare.
There are no rules except to win.

[Stormwolf]

IceGryphon, on 18 March 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Two major reasons myself.
1. CAST SYSTEM. (born a laborer, die a laborer)

Yep, that's bad, but not really any different from the Inner Sphere where you have people who are born a farmer and will die a farmer.

Quote

2. EUGENICS. (people who believe this are going down a dangerous path)

Eugenics generally get a bad rep because of that Austrian that resembled Charlie Chaplin and his misuse of it.

I actually hope that people will one day be able to rid themselves of genetic deficiencies that cause things like inherited diseases. I say this because many women on my mother's side of the family have developed and died from forms of cancer in their later years. I could potentially pass this on if I ever had a daughter, I would absolutely take some kind of genetic treatment if it would help her avoid such a fate.

[PaintedWolf]

IceGryphon, on 18 March 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Two major reasons myself.
1. CAST SYSTEM. (born a laborer, die a laborer)
2. EUGENICS. (people who believe this are going down a dangerous path)

They are foolish by trying to implement rules in warfare.
There are no rules except to win.

Farmers practice Eugenics. I guess Farmers are going down a dangerous path trying to breed the "Master Sheep" or Chicken. The Caste System sucks, but Feudal States also basically have a Caste System, there are peasants, and Lords and Middle Class (Merchants/Clergy) and Knights. The DCMS has the Dictum Honorium:

Quote

A massive tome comprising many volumes, the Dictum Honorium would require several lifetimes to master. It spells out in fine detail the code of conduct for all citizens of the Draconis Combine, from the Coordinator to his Samurai to the lowest Unproductive. Due to its length and general impenetrability, few manage to read more than a few pages, and the Dictum has little actual effect on daily life. Several passages, such as the special rules allowing the taking (instead of summary execution) of prisoners of war valuable to military intelligence and ransom are kept secret from the public.

People are very much born as peasants in the DCMS and learn next to nothing of the outside world, living "humble lives" working for the Dragon and keeping up their rock gardens, always with a big smile on their face. Lots of them aren't even literate.

And trust me, if you start bad-mouthing the government in the DCMS or Capellan Confederation or any Successor State it will not go well for you. Some, like those of the FedSuns and FWL you can get away with more, but ultimately they are all Feudal Military Dictatorships in a state of constant war with the enemy always sending spies, saboteurs and assassins. You cannot rise to being a Noble Person or a Mechwarrior really in most of these places, and trying to do so will likely get you killed.

As for Clan Rules of Warfare, even the Successor States follow some Rules of War because they almost destroyed themselves during the Total Warfare of the First and Second Succession Wars. The Word of Blake ignored all Rules of Warfare and ended up having all factions unite against them. The Clans now have different rules of war depending on their location:

The Home Clans pretty much seem to have a code of strict honor rules among themselves, while everyone outside them is considered dezgra, which means to be dealt with by any means necessary.

The Council of Six (Clans in the Inner Sphere) have a more fluid approach, and it seems to differ from Clan to Clan. For example, they might not consider a House force honorable opponents, label them dezgra and go all out, or they might consider artillery now part of honorable combat. I am not sure of the details, but the Clans in general seem to have a more flexible view of war and trials. Trials among themselves/honorable opponents, more unrestrictive/Ares Convention war among Houses/Sphere/Periphery opponents.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

PaintedWolf, on 18 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

And yet we are still arguing about it.

Actually we are not, you are desperately arguing that the clans are not fascists in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are. And you are failing.
Picking apart the different indicators of fascism and making strawman arguments does not help your case.

Quote

The Scientist Caste did try to overthrow the Warrior Caste and had mixed success.

And why did they rebel, oh that's right they had no political voice in this 'meritocracy'. And how did this little rebellion go, care to mention that the entire caste (even the innocent) were slaughtered in a purge, they exterminated an entire class demographic of people. You actually brought up a genocidal purge as evidence the clans are not fascists.

Quote

The problem is Scientists are not trained for thinking on the spot, or engaging in war or politics.

Way to stereotype an entire group of people...

Quote

The purpose of the Trial system is to reduce collateral while maintaining the impetus necessary to drive progress by competition. The rationale is conflict/competition encourage progress, but only so long as cheating and mass destruction do not become rampant.

Trial system, as if it were somehow legitimate or civilized...it's very name is a joke. Your Trial system is nothing but "Might Makes Right" rebranded. It is a system that consolidates the power into a very exclusive group and gets rid of dissenting opinions by murder.
Did you know that the great Nicholas Kerensky had a brother that thought he was an insane tyrant? Probably not, guess what happened to him? Clan murderocracy in action.

Quote

Merchants are by their nature supposed to be a little selfish and greedy whereas the Khan is not.

Are we stereotyping again?
Greedy merchants bad, Warrior good!

Quote

They can rise to positions of leadership within their own Caste by showing off their skill.

Yes they can be the most politically influential in a group with no political power.

Quote

Not being Warriors or Politicians they should have no authority over such, though Politicians/Warriors have authority over them because that is most essential to survival, security and social cohesion. I do not agree with this (well not all of it) necessarily, but I imagine that is more or less their point of view (or the strongest presentation thereof. )

Welp
You just made the argument for a society to be run by professional politicians and the military....wow. Okay I am done talking to you.

[Erasus Magnus]

i was a clan fanboy for over 10 years (blood spirits, despite the fact that i always had the warden perspective). loved their tech advantage, beautiful mechs and their honorable behaviour.
i especially loved the esprit de corps- mentality of the blood spirits.

But the older i grew, the more the collectivistic view, the caste system and eugenics program , the clan society bases upon, repelled me.
these and the fact that clan rituals degrade war into a mere "sports" like events and trials, made me reconsider my loyalties.
i mean, a society where children are born without parents and have to constantly fight for their lives, are put against each other on fights to the death and they are told that their only goals in life are to fight, to kill to have their genetic legacy stored in a cryo container?
how could such a society raise loving and caring people?
but perhaps i got something wrong.

so the only chance for my alter ego to be a clanner would be a freeborn scientist, a merchant , a bandit or a freeborn solahma warrior, but that is not what the battletech fantasy is about. its about mechs, and so i decided i had no future inside the clans.


i switched over to inner sphere houses, but up until now i wasnt able to find my place in the battletech universe.
i realized that the IS houses werent any better, corrupt to the core, desorganized or simply not the kind of society i could identify with (repressive systems like the confederation or the caste system house kurita applies).

so i am left with the mercanaries type of affiliation. i especially loved the grey death books.
i have to admit though that i am not THAT much of a lore freak, so i dont know if i got everything right.
i have only basic understanding of the inner sphere houses.

i am more of the republic of the sphere knight type. peace, love and understanding. try fighting for the good cause.
the good guy, y` know?
and the btech universe is a pretty twisted and bleak place to live, thats the problem i have currently.

but perhaps someone can alleviate the grudges i have with the clans and/or houses or can give me a hint to a faction that embodies democracy, fairness and freedom inside the btech universe.

one shouldnt put too much thought into the btch universe. it makes one sad and depressed.
if this is our future...no, but thanks, no.

edit: pretty much what the poster above says. only that his english is leaps and bounds better than mine.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 18 March 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[Skylarr]

Stormwolf, on 18 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Wrong, even the Khan has to answer to the Clan council and they have him killed if it is needed.

Do they shoot him right there on the council floor, or, do they have Elementals rip him limb-from-limb, or, do they drag him outside then kill him?

No Trial?

[CarnifexMaximus]

Just because the Germans had some really cool hardware in WW2 does not mean I want to be a ****.

Edit: Apparently the short form that describes a member of the national socialist party of 1930s-1945 Germany is too controversial for these forums and must be edited out.

Edited by CarnifexMaximus, 18 March 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Sierra19]

Well, the reason most players hate the Clans, is that they totally screwed up Battletech. They were introduced, and ALL of their tech was vastly superior/better/more efficient than ANYTHING the IS had. Even their "2nd line" mechs were way better and more efficient. So they basically screwed up the game, to the point that NOBODY would drive anything other than clan tech, unless there was some strange reason not to. Clan tech is WAY better than IS stuff, and I'd really hate to see this game go to the point of needing to run clan tech, just to even have a chance in the game.

[Buckminster]

For me it's simple - it was the 'cheese' to my old school tabletop game. I was playing Battletech before gauss rifles came in, and the mechs all seemed very balanced. The weapons that had range and damage had lots of heat or ammo issues. The PPC was the go-to gun, because 10 damage was the sweet spot for head shots, but due to the insane amount of heat it created, even a 70 ton mech had trouble using two of them.

Then comes clan tech, and everything is lighter, does more damage and makes less heat. The heat balancing act was gone. The game mechanic that leveled the battle field was no longer an issue.

[warner2]

I don't hate the clans but in a pure-tech environment (e.g. NBT) I always preferred playing IS because I liked to think I was playing the "underdog". Whether this was actually true or not was debatable since in MW4, at least towards the end of it's life, the Clan weapons did not vastly overpower the IS weapons. IS and Clan were really just two different sets of weapons with different pro/cons and different play styles. However a running theme from the IS guys I played with was always the idea of making inferior weapons work and finding inventive ways of using LBXs, ACs and what not that were significantly heavier than their Clan counterparts.

The very idea of playing Clans just to get lighter weapons with better range was just a turn off.

[Maurdakar]

PaintedWolf, on 18 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Last you also have to keep in mind that the Fascist states operated under a bunch of pseudo-sciences. They did not know a lot abouts cells and DNA and cloning that we take for granted. The Germans for example believed that inheritance was literally in the blood or "germplasm" and even encouraged inbreeding to a certain extent. Literal blood was analyzed painstakingly by German scientists to find the "secret of inheritance".

The Clan's technology is real, and who knows what kind of effect that can have. Even the lower Castes have been through strict, methodical breeding programs for centuries. Whether that is ethical or not is a good question, but the fact is when such a program actually works it is very different then a pseudoscience. As different as say, actual medicine is from the bizarre alchemical sciences, bloodletting and Aristotelian essentialism of the Middle Ages.

I wouldn't agree that genetic engineering alone makes a group racist or fascist. I mean, farmers practice selective breeding, does that mean farmers are now fascist? Should we call GM Corn "Fascist Corn"?

Stormwolf, on 18 March 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

This got a good chuckle out of me.

Stormwolf, on 18 March 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Yep, that's bad, but not really any different from the Inner Sphere where you have people who are born a farmer and will die a farmer.


Eugenics generally get a bad rep because of that Austrian that resembled Charlie Chaplin and his misuse of it.

I actually hope that people will one day be able to rid themselves of genetic deficiencies that cause things like inherited diseases. I say this because many women on my mother's side of the family have developed and died from forms of cancer in their later years. I could potentially pass this on if I ever had a daughter, I would absolutely take some kind of genetic treatment if it would help her avoid such a fate.

PaintedWolf, on 18 March 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Farmers practice Eugenics. I guess Farmers are going down a dangerous path trying to breed the "Master Sheep" or Chicken. The Caste System sucks, but Feudal States also basically have a Caste System, there are peasants, and Lords and Middle Class (Merchants/Clergy) and Knights. The DCMS has the Dictum Honorium:



People are very much born as peasants in the DCMS and learn next to nothing of the outside world, living "humble lives" working for the Dragon and keeping up their rock gardens, always with a big smile on their face. Lots of them aren't even literate.

And trust me, if you start bad-mouthing the government in the DCMS or Capellan Confederation or any Successor State it will not go well for you. Some, like those of the FedSuns and FWL you can get away with more, but ultimately they are all Feudal Military Dictatorships in a state of constant war with the enemy always sending spies, saboteurs and assassins. You cannot rise to being a Noble Person or a Mechwarrior really in most of these places, and trying to do so will likely get you killed.

As for Clan Rules of Warfare, even the Successor States follow some Rules of War because they almost destroyed themselves during the Total Warfare of the First and Second Succession Wars. The Word of Blake ignored all Rules of Warfare and ended up having all factions unite against them. The Clans now have different rules of war depending on their location:

The Home Clans pretty much seem to have a code of strict honor rules among themselves, while everyone outside them is considered dezgra, which means to be dealt with by any means necessary.

The Council of Six (Clans in the Inner Sphere) have a more fluid approach, and it seems to differ from Clan to Clan. For example, they might not consider a House force honorable opponents, label them dezgra and go all out, or they might consider artillery now part of honorable combat. I am not sure of the details, but the Clans in general seem to have a more flexible view of war and trials. Trials among themselves/honorable opponents, more unrestrictive/Ares Convention war among Houses/Sphere/Periphery opponents.

Clan fanboys seriously defend a warrior-centric caste system.
Clan fanboys try to justify eugenics by comparing humans to farm livestock.
>MFW



Inc PGI to the defense of eugenics and fascism, wouldn't surprise me.

[Vassago Rain]

Maurdakar, on 18 March 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Clan fanboys seriously defend a warrior-centric caste system.
Clan fanboys try to justify eugenics by comparing humans to farm livestock.
>MFW



Inc PGI to the defense of eugenics and fascism, wouldn't surprise me.

You should know how popular the original inspiration was with certain elements.

[PaintedWolf]

Maurdakar, on 18 March 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Clan fanboys seriously defend a warrior-centric caste system.

You do realize the Great Houses are Warrior-Centric systems right? And most of your food is genetically modified. If not maybe you need to talk to your local "Friendly Persuader".

Edited by PaintedWolf, 18 March 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Maurdakar]

Maurdakar, on 18 March 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Clan fanboys try to justify eugenics by comparing humans to farm livestock.

PaintedWolf, on 18 March 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

You do realize the Great Houses are Warrior-Centric systems right? And most of your food is genetically modified. If not maybe you need to talk to your local "Friendly Persuader".

You did it again. Oh wait I get it, I should have known better! I've been baited by a troll!

[PaintedWolf]

Okay you do realize all people are "mutants" right? http://www.sanger.ac...011/110612.html

Quote

Each one of us receives approximately 60 new mutations in our genome from our parents.

Also our modern day environment already effects our genes in various ways, see: The Agile Gene

Anyways letting people die of curable genetically determined ailments just because you don't like genetic modification "since it is unnatural" is a form of social darwinism. You may as well argue against medical science in general, since it prolongs human life in an unnatural manner. Also we already use Gene Therapy.

BTW Kong, don't throw your back out of whack over any of this. =)

Edited by PaintedWolf, 18 March 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[Lugh]

dal10, on 02 February 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

i just hate how all the clan fanboys say that oh, we have tech, we are invincible. but a freaking 3000 to one (assuming roughly 2 billion clannies and 6 trillion IS with the numbers comeing from jade falcon having 116 million people and me balancing it out at 100 million since most clans are smaller and that i have seen the IS pop estimate thrown around numerous times) disadvantage is near insurmountable.

the clan military is at best in the tens of thousand ranges. you can't have a mech only force in the millions, it is just not feasible to maintain. and since the clans have limited numbers of infantry, due to them hating anything short of elementals, their military might is solely limited to high tech units, which all require manpower to maintain and produce.

so thousands of warriors followed by hundreds of thousands of support personnel then have to be transported something like 1500 light years (if i remember right) that is 50 jumps. at 1 week a piece that runs you nearly a year to get those troops from the cluster to the inner sphere, during this time they must be fed and kept in shape due to zero-g affecting their muscles and bones. on top of the this you are carrying unique munitions and parts (little to no possibility of salvaging enough material to sustain yourself, and if you take heavy losses you have to hope some nearby unit can cover you or you have to order those parts and supplies from a supply base a year away (which is why planets like Wayside V showed up, you would need closer depot worlds or things would get messy...)) then you hit your target, they aren't waiting for you due to the fact that you are attacking a non-border area. So the initial strikes succeed with overwhelming victories. however here and their you still get your nose bloodied by the smarter opponents. hopefully you just lost the machines, the warriors are much harder to replace (20 years to train a new one) even so for every unit you lose initially you will take out 5-6 enemy machines to potentially 10. this continues for several waves as redirecting the number of troops necessary to stop you takes time.

here is where my strategy varies from canon

instead of contesting the next wave i would seed my troops 2 waves ahead of the next assault. i would then have spec ops units form resistance cells on planets about to be occupied (not recruiting civilians til later, the units primary purpose is to force the invaders to sink resources into pacifying the population. i would have them set up large explosive devices into the primary spaceport, moment the dropships set down you light them off destroying the propulsion gear, which would take a while to rebuild, and if done right could also set off their hydrogen tanks tearing the whole ship asunder and killing everyone inside. however this plan leaves the warships, which is arguably the clans greatest asset, untouched. roughly 500 clan warships exist to comstars probably 20.(if done right you could probably kill 50 or so clan ships before those 20 went down) simplest way to stop them is a combination of diplomatic shuttles with nukes, tactical insertion ships with nukes, and dropships with nukes. pack 15-20 nukes into the missile tubes of a leopard, then claim to be a diplomat, get close, fire nukes. you may lose the dropship, but that warship is gone. do this simultaneously with hidden stealthships and other things (such as orbitting missiles (aka you have them in the jump point and you send a signal that lights off the drives), a group of meteors along the simplest path to the planet, and other methods, significant loss of warships and clan life can be done. 40-50 warships at least would be gone before the clans figure out what happened. at that point you just lay some dropships which are set up as the dropship version of lrm carriers and pack them with massive numbers of missile tubes (i would have these anyways, they can't hope to stop all the missiles, so it is actually a pretty effective tactic) and punch out a combination of nukes and normal missiles (obviously you can't have an ungodly large barrage of nukes as that would be bankrupting, so have a few dozen and have the rest be decoys, odds of the nuke getting hit are low, but possible, a direct hit probably wouldn't set it off as the it would disrupt the shaped charge (depends on the nuke type) used to start the reaction) which would wipe the warship off the map. before long, they will be unwilling to use warships as all (things are bloody expensive and a drain on manpower) depriving them of their greatest advantage.

will post more later, but basically with tactics, no amount of your beloved clan tech would save you. it all really comes down to how far the IS commander is willing to go to win.

You must be right because those smaller nations of Germany and Japan didn't totally **** and pillage all over their much bigger neighbors with relative ease despite the huge numbers disadvantages.

[Koshirou]

Lugh, on 18 March 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

You must be right because those smaller nations of Germany and Japan didn't totally **** and pillage all over their much bigger neighbors with relative ease despite the huge numbers disadvantages.

German population in 1942: 72 million
Soviet population in 1942: 196 million
Relation: 1 to 2.72 (And the result, in case you forgot: Germany lost.)

Japanese Empire population in 1940: 104 million
Chinese population in 1940: 527 million
Relation: 1 to 5.07 (Less clear cut result in this case, but the Japanese never managed to conquer or control the majority of China even though the latter was consumed by a bitter civil war between Communists and KMT.)

Now...

Clan population in 3050: 1.15 billion
Inner Sphere population in 3050: 6 trillon
Relation: 1 to 5217. In words one to five thousand two hundred and seventeen. Or in other words, a thousand times more than the relation between Japan and China in 1940. That's three orders of magnitude, boys.

It is simply outside the realm of possible human experience to win a war against these odds. The only explanation for the Clan successes, as for so many other things in the official BattleTech Universe, is plot magic.

[Stormwolf]

Koshirou, on 19 March 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

It is simply outside the realm of possible human experience to win a war against these odds. The only explanation for the Clan successes, as for so many other things in the official BattleTech Universe, is plot magic.

The Clans aren't much of a threat if they couldn't have conquered the IS storywise.

Anyway, this might be a interesting read for you:
http://bg.battletech...pic,9727.0.html