139 replies to this topic

[NRP]

Tahribator made an excellent post that gets to the heart of the issue with the Awesome chassis.

[Stingz]

Weight balancing could help reduce these kinds of problems, making lighter mechs more useful.

[John Norad]

Jonathan Paine, on 02 February 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

Thoughts?

Bad idea. Trying to cure the symptoms instead of the cause is the wrong approach.

[Dr Killinger]

While I don't agree with the notion, my testing has revealed the Awesome as absolute sh*t in all roles.

[nksharp]

Dr Killinger, on 03 February 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

While I don't agree with the notion, my testing has revealed the Awesome as absolute sh*t in all roles.

I don't think I have even seen one in any competitive game I've played. They are simply more vulnerable than a stalker and can't tank as good as a atlas.

[Mazzyplz]

i don't see any problem with the awesome (at least the 8r)

this is the scoreboard from a match i just played 10 min ago.
killed UAC5 cataphract, yen lo wang, spider i brawled them all separately one after the other. and was REAL close to killing the last raven when we were both down to the last 1 health he got the shot with the med laser. he was killed 0.5 seconds after by another med laser from my team (btw salute goes to raiden911 and dragunzpryde for a job well done - we had 3 cripples and a disconnect)

and this is not just today this is consistently, there's a lot more

edit:

Quote

I don't think I have even seen one in any competitive game I've played. They are simply more vulnerable than a stalker and can't tank as good as a atlas.

yea competitive play (8v8) always gets an ecm atlas for assault slots, you can't compete with ecm and 100 tons, but i have no problems killing any stalker 1v1

Edited by Mazzyplz, 03 February 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Dr Killinger]

nksharp, on 03 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

I don't think I have even seen one in any competitive game I've played. They are simply more vulnerable than a stalker and can't tank as good as a atlas.

I haven't seen one since the dreaded 7mpls Awesomes in closed beta. I just feel that, even in a fire support role, a Stalker will always out-gun and out-live any Awesome.

[TungstenWall]

The Awesome is not a heavy (80 ton, 80-100 ton, yadda yadda)

But the mech could use some love.

Many argue (and are mostly correct) that the Awesome is a support mech, firing ER weapons and LRMs from behind the front line. Where they are wrong is the ability to pull their weight in the Support Role.
With More Tonnage, Better Armor, Hull Down, and Superior hardpoints, The Stalker can anything the Awesome can do and better, and not suffer as much from Brawling.

Something needs to be done, but only one or the other. I prefer the 2nd.
1-Give the Awesome some kind of buff.
or
2-Start basing MM off of tons (not Weight class). The 20 Tuns between an Awesome and Atlas could turn your two Commandos into Ravens. I also hear Rumors of Dropship-Mode.

[Mazzyplz]

Dr Killinger, on 03 February 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

I just feel that, even in a fire support role, a Stalker will always out-gun and out-live any Awesome.

no.
cute 'feelings' but it doesn't reflect reality. i killed MANY stalker with AWS, usually win


edit: (above comment) yea the awesome needs some kind of buff, mostly so it can boat energy weapons again. i gave up on builds that would do that. heat is terrible in this chassis

oh btw - yea stalker has more armor, more health, more firepower but they can't turn for **** and without arms they can't DO ****

Edited by Mazzyplz, 03 February 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Monsoon]

People seriously need to rethink how they pilot their Awesomes. I would laugh every time one would charge my Atlas for a slugging match. Did they not think, I had 20 tons on them, all into Weapons and Armor?!

Anytime I've piloted an Awesome in the past it was in the fire support role, it's missile/ppc combo is great for taking out enemies at distance.

People need to realize the Awesome is in the lightest weight range for an Assault class, the same problems would exist for the Zeus or Victor as well, if you were to try and put them up against an Atlas as well.

[Dr Killinger]

Mazzyplz, on 03 February 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

no.
cute 'feelings' but it doesn't reflect reality. i killed MANY stalker with AWS, usually win


edit: (above comment) yea the awesome needs some kind of buff, mostly so it can boat energy weapons again. i gave up on builds that would do that. heat is terrible in this chassis

oh btw - yea stalker has more armor, more health, more firepower but they can't turn for **** and without arms they can't DO ****

Your feelings are just as cute

[Mazzyplz]

Dr Killinger, on 03 February 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Your feelings are just as cute

you mean the truth?


if you meant on paper then yes. if you mean in practice then no, hardly.
if tonnage or armor was everything you would NEVER see any lighter mechs killing heavier ones, however in this game that happens every 5 minutes.
don't be quick to assess everything in paper and pronounce it as the ultimate evidence.

stalker does a lot of things better, you can't put 6ppc on an awesome and expect to live, it's not as good for lrm boating.
does that mean it's inferior in a brawl? by no means.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 03 February 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Volthorne]

So, buff pilots and not 'Mechs is the general consensus then?

[NRP]

The Awesome just needs better heat dissipation characteristics so it can carry more energy based firepower. That's all it really needs imo. Either give it more crit slots or make the chassis itself more heat efficient (or both).

I'm not really concerned about the CT hitbox issue. That's a vulnerability I can work around. I would like more speed and better hard point layouts, but the heat issue is the big one imo.

[Tremendous Upside]

The 8-series variants simply need a little more heat-management. Push the engine size up to 300 and I think they'd be a lot more viable... Maybe even 325. Neither would break things from a balance standpoint.

The 9M is already fine as is. It's easily a match for any of the other assault mechs. You won't win with one in a face-to-face slugfest out in the open (at least not often)... but a good pilot using cover and terrain to limit angles and maintain distance can beat an atlas or stalker fairly easily.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Dikaiosyne26, on 03 February 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

Honestly, I've suggested that Awesomes sometimes drop against Heavies, Dragons sometimes against Mediums, and Cicadas sometimes against Lights.

MWO has a Wrestling Problem, in which it's so much better to be at the top of a weight class, than at the bottom of the next one.

very true, the solution is not re-classifying mechs but in coming up with a more even matching system. Perhaps based on chassis/variant viability rather than weight class or straight tonnage. Kind of like Elo for mechs as well as pilots.

[Pihb]

Kobold, on 03 February 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

No.



The Awesome was not a second line mech in lore or TT. It is however punished in MWO because it is wide and easily target-able. Further, this is combined with the fact that long range weapons take a hit in a system where there is no random rolling to determine whether you hit, and ROF/heat system that favors smaller, faster firing weapons.

If you have not noticed yet. This aint TT dude...

[Joe Mallad]

Jonathan Paine, on 02 February 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

While people debate whether the Stalker or the Atlas is the tougher assault, few argue that an Awesome is as tough as either of them (given pilots of EQUAL skill).

Why not reclassify the Awesome as a Heavy? Next time you drop into a match and see three Awesomes on your side, you could hope that they are matched up by lets say.... Dragons.

Thoughts?

because 80 tons on up is considered the Assault class. The same will be said once we get the Orion in game. Its a 75 ton heavy but it has the punch of any Assault. Its always a fine line with the mech that are just over or under another weight class as to what class they better fit into.

[BerryChunks]

Tahribator, on 03 February 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

I spent most of my day yesterday trying to find an acceptable build for my Awesome 8Q. I love trying to get underdogs to work but Awesome is such a trainwreck I gave up eventually. I tried every combination from standart LL/ML builds to cheesy "one shot wonder" 6 PPCs to all small pulse lazers.

I don't think the problem is its armor. If you play a bit conservative and use your arms for shielding, you can manage.

The problem with Awesomes is energy weapons and heat. Larger energy weapons in this game cost so much heat that you can't keep fighting with them properly. In a few alphas with 3 LL's even with 21 DHS, you're going to overheat over and over again, while you get pounded by AC's with reliable DPS and SRM6's with their instakill damages. PPC/ERPPC's do laughable damage for their heat cost and only viable in "one shot wonders" like Stalkerboats. Larger energy weapons just don't compare at the moment to ballistics/missile weapons.

What baffles me in Awesome is it's a mech that needs the DHS most, yet can't mount enough of them with decent weapons because of slot limitation. So you end up with up to 10 tons free even with the biggest engine in some builds. How is that fair an 80 ton Awesome having the same number of critical slots as a Raven?

Another thing is the design of this mech. It's clearly designed to be a "lighter" Atlas, to lead other mechs to fight. To aim flawlessly in close range with its articulated arms and high torso traverse speed. Yet, in MWO it's imprisoned in a "support" role which it's design is not fit for. The weapon points are all mounted at waist level which makes it a terrible sniper because you literally have to show your whole body to get a decent shot. Which Stalkers and Catapults with their high mounted weapons do much much better. It's screaming to be a "breakthrough mech" yet it's a mess all over the place.

To make Awesomes viable, I think these measures should be implemented:

• Give Awesomes more DHS slots, just like engines having extra DHS slots. It's a big mech, so all that surface area should be good for something. Give 2 extra heatsink slots for each left and right torso.

• Lower the heat of large energy weapons while increasing their tonnage. This should make them more viable for heavies while preventing abuse by meds/lights.

• Allow Awesomes to mount bigger engines. As I've said, Awesome is designed to be a lighter Atlas but you can't have less armor and same speed. Without a tradeoff it's just obsolete.

• Do something about the Stalker. It's a very small mech for it's tonnage, it's proportions are definitely off. Make a bit bigger so it has more surface area for damage. Currently it has all the advantages of a Catapult while it's size being similiar even smaller.

If nothing is done, even the upcoming heat changes to large energy weapons are not enough then Awesome will just be irrelevant and obsolete in MWO. Well, except for those "all in" cheese variants with SRM's.

Awesome already mounts bigger engines. I think you're confusing the mobility vs engine rating, which is explained in depth in any CBT introductory rulebook as a function of (desired walking speed) * tonnage = Engine rating, where walking speed = x*10 to convert it into kph.

changing the core mechanics of the game for a single mech via hardpoint and critical fiddling is also a terrible idea.

You have caught on, as I and others have, that the massive heat issue is a fundamental one that has destroyed the original implementation of these mechs. This isnt going to change unless the root issue is addressed.

The Awesome would be MUCH more feared and deadly if we didn't have double armor. Let me paint a picture for you guys.

Picture having half the armor we do now, like it would be in CBT. Picture having half the firing speed, and a half to one quarter of the heat buildup/dissipation. The Awesome would be able to fire many volleys before even getting close to overheating. It's design was meant to be almost heat neutral. Additionally, you're talking 30 damage, which could expose the internal side torso of an enemy Awesome immediately, and/or especially any smaller mech.

Now picture: it takes multiple triple shot volleys to chew through enemy armor, even on lighter mechs (a Centurion has CT armor equal to an Atlas in original CBT), meaning that the faster rate of fire + the heat generation = more downtime.

I assume they increased rate of fire so the game wouldnt be "slow", but also kept the heat along with it, so that "heat is more punishing", which in actuality has people jettison energy weapon builds for ballistics or missiles, or generates boats that are designed to cheesily get a few quick alphas for a kill before shutting down.

[Lance McRaven]

The Trial Mechs really brought the awesome home for me. I liked playing the AWS-8V, but then I launched the Spider, and the first thing I noticed was they have the same engine, a Standard 240. Really? Totaly unrelated, I would like to have an Awesome, even if it was just for variety, just don't know what I want to do with it at the moment.