139 replies to this topic

[FerretGR]

Jonathan Paine, on 02 February 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

While people debate whether the Stalker or the Atlas is the tougher assault, few argue that an Awesome is as tough as either of them (given pilots of EQUAL skill).

Are you admitting that you're less skilled as a pilot than I am?

To answer your question, yes, check out the common complaints about the Awesome, and the most common one will be "when you take it, the other team gets an Atlas." That's not a knock against the Awesome, it's a knock against the matchmaker. If the matchmaker matched on a much narrower set of criteria than the 4 broad weight classes, I think the Awesome would shine a bit more. Matching based on tonnage and BV would be ideal.

Here's a fairly quick fix that I think would go a long way to making all of the chassis (including the lightest ones in each "class") more viable:

Double the number of "classes" that the matchmaker uses...

20 - 30 tons - Commando, Spider (saving room for the Locust )
35 - 45 tons - Jenner, Raven, Cicada
50 - 55 tons - Centurion, Hunchback
60 - 65 tons - Dragon, Catapult
70 - 75 tons - Cataphract
80 - 85 tons - Awesome, Stalker
90 - 95 tons - none for now
100 tons - Atlas

...with the possibility to match with one class up or down, ie. the matchmaker prefers Awesome vs. Awesome or Stalker (both being in the 80-85 class), but would go up to Highlander (eventually) or down to Cataphract if a match isn't made quickly.

Edited by FerretGR, 03 February 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[FerretGR]

Kobold, on 03 February 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

The Awesome was not a second line mech in lore or TT. It is however punished in MWO because it is wide and easily target-able. Further, this is combined with the fact that long range weapons take a hit in a system where there is no random rolling to determine whether you hit, and ROF/heat system that favors smaller, faster firing weapons.

Actually, in the 25th Anniversary Tactics Guide, they place the AWS-8Q with snipers. From the 25th Anniversary set:

Quote

AWS-8Q Awesome
The Awesome truly deserves its name. It is slow-moving, to be sure, but the massed firepower of its three PPCs more than makes up for any lack of speed. At the beginning of a scenario, maneuver the Awesome into shooting position on a hill or other appropriate "sniper's nest." Then let it stand still and pound at the opposition with its three massive weapons. It has enough heat sinks to fire all its weapons continuously without overheating. The most common tactic for this mech is to fire all three PPCs for two turns, bringing the Awesome's heat scale to 4, then fire only two to cool down. In this way, the pilot achieves maximum firepower without any loss of mobility.

So the oft-quoted "vanguard role" certainly isn't the only role suggested for this mech in lore, and it's role as sniper/fire support could certainly be seen as "second line".

That said, I agree that it's taken a beating from all of the lore references to it being truly Awesome The quote I provided doesn't sound much like the MWO 8Q, does it? I LOL'd in particular about the firing all three PPCs for a couple of turns.

Edited by FerretGR, 03 February 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Elkarlo]

Some Mechs are harder to play then others.
That doesn't make them bad or outclassed etc.

I good Pilot can realy shine in an Awesome and can do better then in Atlas or Stalker.
When you want an Easy to play Assault, get yourself a D-DC or a Stalker.

When you want to go on the next level go on the Awesome Master him.
I saw several time good Awesome outthere, which simply steamrolled singlehanded 2-3 Heavy Mechs.
The Pilots play them as a more Powerfull Version of the Phract.

Soon we will get a decrease of the Heat of the Long Range Energy Weapons, then the Awesome will be easier to handle.

The Same goes for the Dragon: The hardest Heavy out there, Pult or Phract are easier to play.
But there are several good Dragon Pilots out there, and they show how it shines.

Reclassifying the Mechs, won't do anything good, Matchmaking is more important, that one Team gets the two Dragons and the Atlas and the other Team the two Phract and the AWS. And then it would be the Awesome start to shine.

In TT the Awesome brings in massiv Firepower for its Tonnage and BV.

Btw the Awesome inheritted a weakness from the TT:
The Armorlayout is against extremly fast Mechs.
He starts with a 2:1 Armor. Most other Mechs got a 3:1 Armor (Front:Back)
Maybe some Armorplates from the back to the front would help.

The standard underarmored Stalker got the same amount on CT location of Armor but in front 72 compared to the 60 of the Awesome...
Thats one of the main reason a lot of bad Awesome Pilots die so fast:
The got LESS front armor then a Phract 4X, because they didn't redistribute the Armor from the
Back to the Front....

Standard Armor Distri on a AWS is:
Side Torso 48/20
Center Torso 60/38
Legs 66

I would suggest to get one point out of each Leg and redistribute:
Side Torso 50/18
Center Torso 76/24
Legs 65

And suddenly the Awesome is less Squishy as he got in CT about 23% more Armor in the Front !

CTF-4X (max armored CTF)
Side Torso 44/16
Center Torso 66/22

As comparison, stock Armor Distribution on the Awesome is not suited for MW:O but for TT long range sniping with Light sneaking up from behind.

Edited by Elkarlo, 03 February 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[BerryChunks]

Elkarlo, on 03 February 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Some Mechs are harder to play then others.
That doesn't make them bad or outclassed etc.

I good Pilot can realy shine in an Awesome and can do better then in Atlas or Stalker.
When you want an Easy to play Assault, get yourself a D-DC or a Stalker.

When you want to go on the next level go on the Awesome Master him.
I saw several time good Awesome outthere, which simply steamrolled singlehanded 2-3 Heavy Mechs.
The Pilots play them as a more Powerfull Version of the Phract.

Soon we will get a decrease of the Heat of the Long Range Energy Weapons, then the Awesome will be easier to handle.

The Same goes for the Dragon: The hardest Heavy out there, Pult or Phract are easier to play.
But there are several good Dragon Pilots out there, and they show how it shines.

Reclassifying the Mechs, won't do anything good, Matchmaking is more important, that one Team gets the two Dragons and the Atlas and the other Team the two Phract and the AWS. And then it would be the Awesome start to shine.

In TT the Awesome brings in massiv Firepower for its Tonnage and BV.

Btw the Awesome inheritted a weakness from the TT:
The Armorlayout is against extremly fast Mechs.
He starts with a 2:1 Armor. Most other Mechs got a 3:1 Armor (Front:Back)
Maybe some Armorplates from the back to the front would help.

The standard underarmored Stalker got the same amount on CT location of Armor but in front 72 compared to the 60 of the Awesome...
Thats one of the main reason a lot of bad Awesome Pilots die so fast:
The got LESS front armor then a Phract 4X, because they didn't redistribute the Armor from the Back to the Front....

and now you have your answer as to why Engine relating to Turn and Twist speed is so cheap. it encourages larger engines because if you cant turn fast enough, you can't roll your good armor to take hits.

[Trauglodyte]

I just finished the 8Q (wow, that was harsh) and am taking advantage of the half off MC cost of the Trial By Fire with the 8V. The problem that the Awesome has, at least in my opinion, is that the 8 series gets lumped in with all of the Stalker and Atlas variants without any sort of advantage. Yes, articulated arms help vs the Stalker, in that arguement, but the Stalker always carries more weapons and the Atlas more armor. So, if you're as slow and can't make it up with a heavier punch or more armor, you're automatically at a loss. That leaves the 9 series, and the soon to be released Pretty Baby, as the only real means to gain an edge.

Furthermore, you add to the mix horrible hit boxes and poor heat management, and you've got a perfect storm of bad. The mech, in and of itself, is solid. But the cons are so massive that it takes so much on the part of the pilot and his/her team to make up for all that it is lacking. I can drop 4 PPCs on my AWS just like the Stalker but I won't have the additional missiles to back them up. And I can brawl like an Atlas/Stalker but I'll last 3/4 as long. The maps are currently the size of shoe boxes so any chance of playing the sniper role is wasted when others can creep up on you in an instant.

[BerryChunks]

the mech in of itself is perfectly fine on TT using the original Battletech rules. We are not using CBT and some mechs are clearly having large glaring issues. Should be a pretty simple explanation for that, no?

[Old Farkas]

Wraith05, on 02 February 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Because weight class is based on tonnage, not viabilty. And the awesome is a great mech for its intended role: Fire support.

Assault mechs do not mean run headfirst into the enemy. Assault mechs also have second line mechs like the awesome which were never meant to take a full brute force attack like an atlas can.

This ^^^^^

And why debate about the classification? Even if they change weight classification this will not change at all the Awesome. It will stay with his hardpoint and all.

[FerretGR]

Charles McLarren, on 03 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

This ^^^^^

And why debate about the classification? Even if they change weight classification this will not change at all the Awesome. It will stay with his hardpoint and all.

Because while the Awesome may have, overall, some pros and cons, one of the big problems folks keep raising is that when you take and Awesome, the other team is likely getting an Atlas. Changing how the matchmaker makes matches would help this objection against the Awesome. IMHO, the rest of the complaints about the Awesome boil down to pros vs. cons and are a matter of personal taste.

[BerryChunks]

I cant say for sure why, but the cockpit looks like it's zoomed at 1x zoom when u first start. It just feels calustrophobic <- spell check doesn't catch that, lol.

Edited by BerryChunks, 03 February 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[Kotsuno]

BerryChunks, on 03 February 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

I cant say for sure why, but the cockpit looks like it's zoomed at 1x zoom when u first start. It just feels calustrophobic <- spell check doesn't catch that, lol.

user.cfg >>> cl_fov = 79

[Moromillas]

How much does the Awesome weigh?

[BerryChunks]

I think one of the major issues with the all energy variants of the awesome (8Q) happens to be that, due to the way heat is so overwhelmingly powerful in this build of a Battletech Simulator, its pretty hard to get any viable builds out of a mech that screams for you to put power weapons on.

The Irony is that if people were to use the Doctrine of Multi-range platforms for the Awesome mech, they could build a design which uses a few very long range weapons to take chunks out of people, backed up by a solid mid or short range design.

The theory behind such is that you spend excess heat, tonnage, and crits for range, or conversely, that you increase efficiency in heat, tonnage, and crits for shorter range energy weapons, allowing more firepower at close range.

Moromillas, on 03 February 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

How much does the Awesome weigh?

80 tons, or is this one of those zen philosophy questions.

[h00n]

Try maximizing your builds for rate of fire instead of alpha damage....

It's got 80 tons to work with, you make it into a monster.

It is not the weapon's fault, it is the wielder's.

[cyberFluke]

chewie, on 03 February 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

It is what it is.

Stop trying to get it to be something it isn't.

If you treat it for what it is, you'll be fine.

If you try and treat it like an ubermech, you'll be dead before you know it.

Stop making stupid cheese builds and make something viable that won't let you get out of your depth/league when in battle.

Like has been said, it is an ENTRY level assault class mech. Its not mean to be the baddest mech around, not by a long shot.

Why do people keep saying the Awesome is an "entry-level" Assault mech? Where does this fallacy of titanic proportions originate?!

[Taizan]

cyberFluke, on 03 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Why do people keep saying the Awesome is an "entry-level" Assault mech? Where does this fallacy of titanic proportions originate?!

This refers more to the weight class it's in being an assault class mech, not the skill it needs to pilot one successfully and with no frustration.

[Trauglodyte]

When the map sizes expand for 12v12, I think that you'll see the Awesome come into its own. But, until then, you're a slow light weight Atlas with much less fire power and much more heat issues. It sucks cause I really like the Awesome. But, it is what the environment allows it to be.

[Wraith05]

cyberFluke, on 03 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Why do people keep saying the Awesome is an "entry-level" Assault mech? Where does this fallacy of titanic proportions originate?!

I don't think it's a "entry-level" but It may come from previous MW games in which you got the 'lighter' assaults before the heavier assaults. So you'd get the awesome first, then a mauler, then an atlas etc...

MWO doesn't work in this way (thankfully)

[Craftyman]

the problem is the Awesome gets matched up with the flat out better mechs on the enemy team, the atlas and the stalker. The awesome cannot compete in either of the roles that the Stalker or Atlas currently fulfill.

The Stalker is a better long range "2nd line" support mech with it's higher situated hardpoints for PPC sniping (meaning a less exposed mech over hills) and extra tonnage/hardpoints for LRM boating.

The Atlas is a better brawler with it's huge health pool, 68pt barn door shield arms and its varied and well distributed armament. It also doesn't go any slower than an average Awesome.

The only decent Awesome is the 9M which can go over 64.8 km/h. Once/if we get tonnage limits the Awesome could be quite awesome because it gives your team a tonnage advantage.

Trauglodyte, on 03 February 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

When the map sizes expand for 12v12, I think that you'll see the Awesome come into its own. But, until then, you're a slow light weight Atlas with much less fire power and much more heat issues. It sucks cause I really like the Awesome. But, it is what the environment allows it to be.

No you will not, the awesome cannot do anything a stalker can't do better at range.

Edited by Craftyman, 03 February 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Xyroc]

1v1 me in Awesome 8v VS many types of Atali has been successful . 3x SRM6 all flying out at once puts a hurting on anything

[Taizan]

Craftyman, on 03 February 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

No you will not, the awesome cannot do anything a stalker can't do better.

(Excluding actually moving - in comparison to AWS's STKs are like a tower moved by an army of snails)