139 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Banky, on 03 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

And when you take a commando, the other team may get a jenner/raven. Or if you take a cicada, they may get a hunchback... It's one of the biggest "meh" arguments there is. So long as the matchmaker is working across all classes the same way, it really shouldn't matter. If you're going to go strictly off tonnage to match teams, that'll be even more unbalanced. You'll end up with some teams built at both extremes - with a mix of assaults and lights, and they'd be facing teams composed entirely of mediums and heavies at times. With no heavy mechs having ECM and only the cicada having it in the medium class, I'm pretty sure that'd be a bigger sore point for most than whether someone gave the team a catapult/cataphract or an atlas/stalker because they chose the lightest chassis in those weight classes...

I think the Commando has the same problem. The Cicada may not have it - simply because it is a lot faster than the other mediums it would compete against, and this speed advantage can compensate for 10 tons less of armour and weapons.

But the speed advantage of an Awesome over a Stalker or Atlas isn't that impressive.

CrackyOxide, on 03 February 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

This is why every mech needs it's own unique set of efficiencies. So that each mech has something it can contribute.

I like that idea. I actually had a take on that: http://mwomercs.com/...ic-efficiencies

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 February 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

TungstenWall, on 03 February 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Many argue (and are mostly correct) that the Awesome is a support mech, firing ER weapons and LRMs from behind the front line. Where they are wrong is the ability to pull their weight in the Support Role.
With More Tonnage, Better Armor, Hull Down, and Superior hardpoints, The Stalker can anything the Awesome can do and better, and not suffer as much from Brawling.

not exactly true...the STK can not be as quick and agile as an AWS with a huge engine... the awesome (imho) is what the dragon is in it´s weight class...underestimated and hard to handle

but to be honest, also not my #1 choise, but i don´t drive assaults anyway...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 04 February 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[BerryChunks]

CrackyOxide, on 03 February 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

This is why every mech needs it's own unique set of efficiencies. So that each mech has something it can contribute.

im surprised such a bad idea didnt crash the forums.

[MustrumRidcully]

BerryChunks, on 04 February 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

im surprised such a bad idea didnt crash the forums.

Probably because it's a great idea.

If a mech has a specific weakness or feature, you can build an efficiency around it.

The Hunchback has its hunch. It's usually a glaring weakness, because everyone fires at it, knowing it will take out most of a Hunchback's firepower.
BUt now imagine there was an Efficiency/Module you could equip that only the Hunchback can have, that gives you, say, 20 % damage reduction in the Hunch. Suddenly it's not a weakness anymore, but a strength.

Or look at how people hate that the Catapult K2 is always used as a ballistic platform, not the energy platform it's supposed to be. Imagine there was an efficiency that would give you 10 % heat reduction for every arm-mounted energy weapon. Suddenly a PPC or LL build might seem much more interesting.

[Johnny Reb]

Crap post is crap. They are what they are for a reason.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Johnny Reb, on 04 February 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Crap post is crap. They are what they are for a reason.

won´t be that harsh, but in the essence i agree... pls don´t start with RPG +X/ -Y stats and such crap...

weakness and strength are in the design of the mech itself, nothing else is needed... leave the rest to the skill system...(which is already more than enough imho^^)

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 04 February 2013 - 02:45 AM.

[Bad Andy]

canon roles for mechs go out the window when you change the game from turn based battletech to a first person shooter/piloting match. The stalker has better hardpoints, 5 tons of extra space, and a smaller torso profile. The awesome having movable arms is not enought o make up for those advantages.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Just have the matchmaker match mechs within 5 tons up or down. One team gets an Awesome at 80 tons, the other side gets a Orion (75 tons), an Awesome, or a Stalker (85 tons.) If they had the whole range of mechs from the TRO's this would be more problematical, since you wouldn't want to be on the team that got a Charger while the other side got a Victor or Awesome (though maybe you could get lucky and get a Marauder .) However, right now we have such a small pool of mechs to choose from this wouldn't be to much of an issue. And they should allow the AWS chassis' to buy up to a 400 engine to at least get to the 80 kph range, while STK's and Atlas' would be stuck at the 60 kph mark. Those power plants are heavy so they would have to either go XL (with a higher chance of death with side torso destruction) or sacrifice a lot of weight.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Bad Andy, on 04 February 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

canon roles for mechs go out the window when you change the game from turn based battletech to a first person shooter/piloting match. The stalker has better hardpoints, 5 tons of extra space, and a smaller torso profile. The awesome having movable arms is not enought o make up for those advantages.

moveable arms, way better torso twist, ability to go way faster, to turn way faster, better overview and many viabilites, such as hunter-killer... the only true disadvantage is the HUGE center torso hitbox, which it has in common with the dragon and the catapult... well actually they made it smaller on the dragon afaik - so this might be a solution for the awesome as well... btw: the stalker is heavier than the awesome, why should the awesome "make up for the 5 tons extra space"?

and yes,

Quote

canon roles for mechs go out the window when you change the game from turn based battletech to a first person shooter/piloting match

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 04 February 2013 - 02:55 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 February 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Probably because it's a great idea.

If a mech has a specific weakness or feature, you can build an efficiency around it.

The Hunchback has its hunch. It's usually a glaring weakness, because everyone fires at it, knowing it will take out most of a Hunchback's firepower.
BUt now imagine there was an Efficiency/Module you could equip that only the Hunchback can have, that gives you, say, 20 % damage reduction in the Hunch. Suddenly it's not a weakness anymore, but a strength.

Or look at how people hate that the Catapult K2 is always used as a ballistic platform, not the energy platform it's supposed to be. Imagine there was an efficiency that would give you 10 % heat reduction for every arm-mounted energy weapon. Suddenly a PPC or LL build might seem much more interesting.

suddenly my wizard mech with it's bad points overcomed creams anything less. this is MWO not final fantasy the last thing the game needs is magic modules to enhance your mechs armour points etc etc. it's a terible idea.

imagine granturismo and now i can buy a ferrari tuning module to overcome that horrible slow vw engine in the beetle. yeah it will do mwo wonders.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Bad Andy, on 04 February 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

canon roles for mechs go out the window when you change the game from turn based battletech to a first person shooter/piloting match. The stalker has better hardpoints, 5 tons of extra space, and a smaller torso profile. The awesome having movable arms is not enought o make up for those advantages.

The Jagermech will soon (well sooner or later) be entering the mechlab, a mech thats traditional role is direct fire long range support, similar to the Awesome when mounting heavy energy loadouts (and there is an LRM Jagermech like the missile AWS as well.) However it sacrifices 15 tons to the Awesome, and only has a slight increase in speed in its stock configuration, plus very low armor values. Should the Jagermech get boosted to make it able to compete with an Awesome? Should Hunchbacks get special efficiences and skills so that they can reliable take on Cataphracts and win?

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Realistically, the Awesome is inferior to the Stalker in every single significant way. It's advantages (arms) are nowhere near good enough to offset the weaknesses.

However, the Stalker has the most disappointing 3D model in the game. It just looks like a partially-deflated Catapult. It has no flair or charm at all. Worse, the different versions are almost indistinguishable with only minor changes in hardpoints to set them apart. Dull, dull, dull.

In contrast, the Awesome has a great 3D model that oozes character and there really is a big difference between the different types; 8R vs 9M, for instance.

So it comes to this: do you want to just win, or do you want to look stylish, elegant and fashionable? Do you drive a VW or an Alfa Romeo? Would you rather go on holiday to Belgium or France? Would you rather have a date with Angela Merkel or Julie Delpy?

Mechwarrior, as your mouse hovers over those mechs in the mechbay, look into your soul and ask these questions of yourself...

[Broad5ide]

If matchmaking matched based on tonnage number and not class this thread would not even exist. with a CTF at 75 tons and an AWS at 80 I'd say those numbers are spot on.

Edited by Broad5ide, 04 February 2013 - 03:11 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

okay, i´ve got enough... i´ll buy an AWS when i get home and go hunt stalkers... hope fraps won´t kill my fps too much...

[BerryChunks]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 February 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

I think the Commando has the same problem. The Cicada may not have it - simply because it is a lot faster than the other mediums it would compete against, and this speed advantage can compensate for 10 tons less of armour and weapons.

But the speed advantage of an Awesome over a Stalker or Atlas isn't that impressive.




I like that idea. I actually had a take on that: http://mwomercs.com/...ic-efficiencies

you realize that you can max out cicada armor which makes it have twice as much as any light and almost as much as a centurion?

[BerryChunks]

FerretGR, on 03 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Actually, in the 25th Anniversary Tactics Guide, they place the AWS-8Q with snipers. From the 25th Anniversary set:



So the oft-quoted "vanguard role" certainly isn't the only role suggested for this mech in lore, and it's role as sniper/fire support could certainly be seen as "second line".

That said, I agree that it's taken a beating from all of the lore references to it being truly Awesome The quote I provided doesn't sound much like the MWO 8Q, does it? I LOL'd in particular about the firing all three PPCs for a couple of turns.

not the MWO 8Q, which is wildly different from the CBT 8Q. Also, as long as we're going by the fluff text of the newer year 200+ redistribution of the wizkid version of the introductory rules, the Banshee is also in the list of snipers, despite having a terrible weapon selection.

[Lightfoot]

I had nothing to do with this topic post. It just sounds like one of mine.

The solution is to fix/ re-balance the Awesome into an Assault mech. It has no Assault mech toughness.

Some players take the AWS-9M and put a XL380 engine in it with medium pulse lasers and turn it into an 80 ton medium mech and role, using the extra speed to spread-out the damage, keep it away from the easy to hit center torso. They say this works, but I think the Awesome should also work in it's Battletech Lore role, as a vanguard assault mech. It needs to, to keep the Drop balancing fair. Hopefully it gets fixed soon.

[Elkarlo]

Lightfoot, on 04 February 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

The solution is to fix/ re-balance the Awesome into an Assault mech. It has no Assault mech toughness.

Simple Solution: Get 16 Points from Rear CT armor to the front CT, and he is tougher then a Stock Stalker.

Edited by Elkarlo, 04 February 2013 - 04:50 AM.

[BulletProofPanda]

Tahribator, on 03 February 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

I spent most of my day yesterday trying to find an acceptable build for my Awesome 8Q. I love trying to get underdogs to work but Awesome is such a trainwreck I gave up eventually. I tried every combination from standart LL/ML builds to cheesy "one shot wonder" 6 PPCs to all small pulse lazers.

I don't think the problem is its armor. If you play a bit conservative and use your arms for shielding, you can manage.

The problem with Awesomes is energy weapons and heat. Larger energy weapons in this game cost so much heat that you can't keep fighting with them properly. In a few alphas with 3 LL's even with 21 DHS, you're going to overheat over and over again, while you get pounded by AC's with reliable DPS and SRM6's with their instakill damages. PPC/ERPPC's do laughable damage for their heat cost and only viable in "one shot wonders" like Stalkerboats. Larger energy weapons just don't compare at the moment to ballistics/missile weapons.

What baffles me in Awesome is it's a mech that needs the DHS most, yet can't mount enough of them with decent weapons because of slot limitation. So you end up with up to 10 tons free even with the biggest engine in some builds. How is that fair an 80 ton Awesome having the same number of critical slots as a Raven?

Another thing is the design of this mech. It's clearly designed to be a "lighter" Atlas, to lead other mechs to fight. To aim flawlessly in close range with its articulated arms and high torso traverse speed. Yet, in MWO it's imprisoned in a "support" role which it's design is not fit for. The weapon points are all mounted at waist level which makes it a terrible sniper because you literally have to show your whole body to get a decent shot. Which Stalkers and Catapults with their high mounted weapons do much much better. It's screaming to be a "breakthrough mech" yet it's a mess all over the place.

To make Awesomes viable, I think these measures should be implemented:

• Give Awesomes more DHS slots, just like engines having extra DHS slots. It's a big mech, so all that surface area should be good for something. Give 2 extra heatsink slots for each left and right torso.

• Lower the heat of large energy weapons while increasing their tonnage. This should make them more viable for heavies while preventing abuse by meds/lights.

• Allow Awesomes to mount bigger engines. As I've said, Awesome is designed to be a lighter Atlas but you can't have less armor and same speed. Without a tradeoff it's just obsolete.

• Do something about the Stalker. It's a very small mech for it's tonnage, it's proportions are definitely off. Make a bit bigger so it has more surface area for damage. Currently it has all the advantages of a Catapult while it's size being similiar even smaller.

If nothing is done, even the upcoming heat changes to large energy weapons are not enough then Awesome will just be irrelevant and obsolete in MWO. Well, except for those "all in" cheese variants with SRM's.

I always thought the stalker was too small in MWO, I remember it in MW2 mercs and it was huge, much longer main torso.

[Bishop Steiner]

end of the day, all that matters is tonnage. You can be crappy and still be an assault. Go to Sarna.Net and check the Banshee and Charger.