225 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Taizan, on 04 February 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

ECM is fine once full info warfare is in. On it's own it seems OP-ish.

1) We have no idea what "full info warfare" is or its effects on ECM.
2) We have no idea when these theoretical add-ons will be implemented, whereas ECM is here now, presumably without the majority of its counters/checks and balances.

[Mechteric]

My only issues with ECM are dealing with the IFF confusion. LRMs are more or less fine and SSRMs need some tuning IMO so they don't have super air turning abilities, but otherwise I'm just peachy!

[Cato Phoenix]

Now that the lagshield seems to be much improved, ECM is a lot less impressive than it was previously, because it doesn't give raven 3Ls invulnerability + auto targetting streaks.

[Zyllos]

Cato Phoenix, on 04 February 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Now that the lagshield seems to be much improved, ECM is a lot less impressive than it was previously, because it doesn't give raven 3Ls invulnerability + auto targetting streaks.

My major beef is it's balance between non-ECM Lights and ECM Lights. Maybe I am just terrible but I just can not win against a Raven-3L vs. my CMD-3D (SRM/6, SRM/4, Medium Laser, and Flamer) or CN9-A (AC/10, 2x Medium Laser, and 2x LRM/5).

But it is extremely hard to get into a fight vs. the RVN-3L and myself with either one having already previous damage or getting others involved and maybe that is why I can not seem to win those fights.

[Mazzyplz]

i couldn't vote.
my reason for disliking it wasn't in the poll.


and here it is:
shroud for the whole team means a perfect surprise attack.
it doesn't matter if your team is pugs or an 8 man.
if you're not countering that ECM, 3 atlas might pop up behind you at any second!

a single instance like this is enough to win a game almost immediately.
assaults should not be able to hide through ECM, IMO.

a hidden atlas is an oxymoron.

[Denno]

Poll forgot: I have to run thermal now, even on some day maps to see distant ecm mechs.

[Bubba Wilkins]

ECM counters 4 weapons systems.
It has no effect on the other 20.

Prior to it's introduction, I ran a Dual UAC-5, (3) Streak, 4 Med Laser Atlas build. When I found myself being slightly less effective, I switched it up to an AC/20, (3) SRM6's, (2) MedPulse build instead.

Since the radar scope is fairly short range, I've never relied on it for enemy information. The ability to see the enemy indicators on the HUD is nice, but typically, I pick them up in Thermals at greater ranges.

Bottom line is ECM is hardly more than an annoyance at this point.

[StalaggtIKE]

Bubba Wilkins, on 04 February 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

ECM counters 4 weapons systems.
It has no effect on the other 20.

Prior to it's introduction, I ran a Dual UAC-5, (3) Streak, 4 Med Laser Atlas build. When I found myself being slightly less effective, I switched it up to an AC/20, (3) SRM6's, (2) MedPulse build instead.

Since the radar scope is fairly short range, I've never relied on it for enemy information. The ability to see the enemy indicators on the HUD is nice, but typically, I pick them up in Thermals at greater ranges.

Bottom line is ECM is hardly more than an annoyance at this point.

ECM doesn't effect your play style, so it's fine. That's pretty closed minded of you. Act like a grown up and think beyond your limited bubble.

[Gaan Cathal]

StalaggtIKE, on 04 February 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

ECM doesn't effect your play style, so it's fine. That's pretty closed minded of you. Act like a grown up and think beyond your limited bubble.

I think it's a little unfair to assume that point of view when it clearly affected his play style enough to initiate a build change. Infact, that post reads 'it affected my playstyle, so I changed it'.


As for the topic, ECM has become a much less problematic factor at the light-mech end of the scale since the netcode fix has obviated the necessity to use SSRMs to fight lights. Certain Commando fits are still problematic to fight ECM mechs with due to their inherent reliance on SSRM, but then they have significant benefits fighting non ECM lights, which are turning back up in noticable numbers, so frankly that seems like a reasonable tradeoff.

The real problem I have with ECM (which I use) as it stands is the effect on LRMs (which I don't, except as an auxiliary weapon). It's simply too much of a hard counter to them, partly because TAG can be swamped by multiple ECM emitters. If it couldn't be, I'd be dropping firepower on my Raven to run one, but it's not worth it at the moment since you rely on a: having significant LRM presence on your team, which is unlikely at the moment and b: your target only being interdicted by one ECM emitter. And let's not go into NARC.

Basically ECM needs to either counter sensors or aggressive EWAR. Frankly it makes most sense to be the former. TAG and a buffed-into-not-idiocy NARC in should be able to light up a target irrespective of the number of ECM emitters affecting them. Oh, and dear god make it purely antagonistic with BAP. The current rendering of BAP entirely inert is...foolish. If anything, it should be a direct inverse of BAP, reduction in enemy targeting range, increase in targeting time and increase in missile lock time. Slap on a hard-counter to Artemis (and an increased spread/missrate for non-Artemis missiles to keep Artie useful) and job done, IMO.

Obviously the above would require SSRMs to be fixed or any light would be a high-velocity coffin, but they need to be fixed irrespective of any ECM change that may or may not happen.

[Butane9000]

Honestly ECM isn't nearly as common as it was when it first launched and I have less of a problem with it now then I did when it was first released. However the benefits ECM give when you factor in the weight/critical space cost are immense and completely ridiculous. Being so cheap makes it a no brainer to have on any mech that's able to equip it.

[Roughneck45]

The only thing wrong with ECM is the balance with lights and streaks. Something has to change there, but i don't think it's ECM that needs to change. The way streaks interact with it should, or changes to the streak missile itself.

I think that slowing the missile speed of streaks, and making AMS more effective against it is the way to go. This way, lights that cannot take ECM can take 1.5 tons worth of equipment and have good streak protection.

[MaddMaxx]

To help with the perceived ECM problem, how's about we grant BAP the ability to return a Friend or Foe designation to any Mechs that are hidden/hiding under an ECM umbrella. Usable Range is negotiable.

Also, Narc really needs some more things. Change some stats to make it actually viable.

Slots="1" (-1)
Cooldown="1.5" (-2.0) we should not have to wait (forever) after a miss
MinRange="0"
LongRange="270.0"
maxRange="540.0" (just Buff the range)
tons="2" (-1)
speed="300" (would love it be 600 but same as SRM is fine)
Volleydelay="0.00" (at a mere 6 shots per/ton tough enough to get max use (6 hits) as is)
radius="1.5" (-2.0) (should be near streak like in homing (it is a homing beacon after all)
TAGDuration="90.0" (+70) (on full time until Narc'd section is destroyed, would also be acceptable)
Hitpoints="0" ( assures it cannot be affected by AMS)

As to the Poll. ECM helps keep MWO's visual acuity factor in tact. That is something I enjoy about the current game play model. I can understand how many would not "see" it that way though. (pun intended)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 February 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Erata]

What a dumb poll! (It needs more options to choose from clearly)

I HATE ECM BECAUSE IT GAVE ME BLINDNESS AND MODERATE NAUSEA.

So I don't know what the idea with hatin on ECM is since it's going to get some pretty heavy counters that a lot of old birds already have (Sensor Module).


In general though you just have to look around for multiple story tall stomping robots and report locations.

The Feb19 Changes or whatever:

If the Sensor-Module Mech is able to share target info with teammates to allow for indirect fire from distant allies' LRMs and not just a 1 v 1 situation with the module, then ECM becomes incredibly weak.

If not, it's still crazy because it still allows the meta-game to continue, but much more viscerally because it reduces the odds that someone running the Sensor Module, especially the Advanced version, will have to swap to CounterECM:
Light Hunter-Seekers running ECM + Streaks Only specifically to knock over other ECM Lights.

[Levon K]

Denno, on 04 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Poll forgot: I have to run thermal now, even on some day maps to see distant ecm mechs.

This. MWO has some awesome 3D rendered scenes. It all gets ruined since I'm forced into Thermal mode 80% of the time. Not fun.

[Wolf Clearwater]

@ Errata:

The modules "Sensor Range" and "Advanced Sensor Range"

• Will now affect ECM by increasing the detectable/targetable range of an ECM equipped Mech.
  
• "Sensor Range", the first tier, will allow players to detect/target an ECM equipped Mech 15% further away than normal (200m > 230m)
  
• "Advance Sensor Range", the second tier, will allow players to detect/target an ECM equipped Mech 25% further away than normal (200m > 250m)

How this affects gameplay:

• Normally an ECM equipped Mech can only be detected/targeted between 180m-200m. I.e. there was a 20m buffer where SSRMs/LRMs could lock and fire.
  
• With Sensor Range, that buffer is now 180-230m. A total of 50m buffer.
  
• With Advanced Sensor Range, that buffer becomes 180-250. A total of 70m buffer.
  
• Players will have an additional 50m of space to target and fire guided munitions on ECM enabled Mechs.

This too will be going live on Feb 19th.


from: http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

Not exactly huge changes to ECM, or how to counter it.

Edited by Wolf87535, 04 February 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[Fgump]

IceCase88, on 03 February 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

My understanding of real world ECM is sound. Do your research. Additionally, it is reasonable to infer that 10 centuries from now that technology would advance enough so they can put several different types of ECM into a single container that weighs roughly the same as a modern car as well as being similar in size to a car.

Who cares if 60% of players polled in an opinion poll, not a scientific poll, think ECM is OP. Before ECM probably about 60% of the players boated LRMs and SSRMs. So the 60% of the players who actually go to the forums and actually voted in one of the many anti-ECM polls, to include you, feel their playing style has been hampered. L2P. I have a Stalker with 2 LRM20s and I do just fine. ECM, one item, has 2 counters (ECM and TAG). That is more than sufficient. The 60% of players you state are not even 60% of the player base so the alleged number is not even relevant.



I am aware how jamming works and there is a bit more to it than what you stated. It is not easy to defeat ECM as you say nor does it affect all combatants within its area. This is not WW2 where tinfoil is being used to confuse radar and all the soldiers know to do is blast broad range frequency bursts to interefere with the enemy detection equipment. Your forces are able to adjust their equipment to a different frequency so as to not effect your own equipment. This is how US forces are able to jam enemy SAMs yet still able to drop precision GPS and other smart bombs on the enemy.



Oh no! You got me! You used 1/4 of one sentence to say my entire post is invalid. lol. Really, Guy? Come up with something better. Sorry to ask you to tax your mind a bit more.



Work is slow and I am using a smartphone to type. Sorry for not adding bulletpoints and footnotes. It can be quite daunting to reply in these forums on it. Most equipment in the game has a basis in reality. We are not talking about magic and dragons. There is plenty of balance in the game. The balance may not suit your play style but it is balance nonetheless. By all means do not let the facts get in the way of your impassioned argument. Facts can be a tricky thing when they conflict with your ideas. The devs have said ECM works as intended and a good number of posters agree. Acting like petulant children and crying about your playing style being hampered is not going to change anyone's mind. ECMis fine. It has 2 counters and only effects 2 weapons systems (LRMs and SSRMs). That is not OPed and is pretty reasonable. The only thing that is unreasonable is all the QQing about it and the stupid demands. Overall the game is balanced. Maybe not in your favor but it is balanced.

You're a ******* moron.

http://en.wikipedia....ECCM_techniques


Specific ECCM techniques
[color=#000000]
The following are some examples of EPM (other than simply increasing the fidelity of sensors through techniques such as increasing power or improving discrimination):[/color]

[edit]ECM detection
[color=#000000]
Sensor logic may be programmed to be able to recognize attempts at spoofing (e.g., aircraft dropping chaff during terminal homing phase) and ignore them. Even more sophisticated applications of ECCM might be to recognize the type of ECM being used, and be able to cancel out the signal.[/color]

[edit]Pulse compression by "chirping", or linear frequency modulation
[color=#000000]
One of the effects of the pulse compression technique, is boosting the apparent signal strength as perceived by the radar receiver. The outgoing radar pulses are chirped, that is, the frequency of the carrier is varied within the pulse, much like the sound of a cricket chirping. When the pulse reflects off a target and returns to the receiver, the signal is processed to add a delay as a function of the frequency. This has the effect of 'stacking' the pulse so it seems stronger, but shorter in duration, to further processors. The effect can increase the received signal strength to above that of noise jamming. Similarly, jamming pulses (used in deception jamming) will not typically have the same chirp, so will not benefit from the increase in signal strength.[/color]

[edit]Frequency hopping
[color=#000000]
Frequency agility ('frequency hopping') may be used to rapidly switch the frequency of the transmitted energy, and receiving only that frequency during the receiving time window. This foils jammers which cannot detect this frequency switch quickly enough nor predict the next hop frequency, and switch their own jamming frequency accordingly during the receiving time window.[/color]
[color=#000000]
This method is also useful against barrage jamming, in that it forces the jammer to spread its jamming power across multiple frequencies in the jammed system's frequency range, reducing its power in the actual frequency used by the equipment at any one time. The use of spread-spectrum techniques allow signals to be spread over a wide enough spectrum to make jamming of such a wideband signal difficult.[/color]
[color=#000000]
The famous World War 2 Movie actress, Ms. Heddy Lamar was granted US Patent 2,292,387 issued on August 11, 1942, for an early version of frequency hopping. The technique used a piano roll to change between 88 carrier frequencies and was intended to make radio-guided torpedoes harder to detect or jam. The patent was issued to composer George Antheil and "Hedy Kiesler Markey", Ms. Heddy Lamarr's married name at the time.[/color]

[edit]Sidelobe blanking
[color=#000000]
Radar jamming can be effective from directions other than the direction the radar antenna is currently aimed. When jamming is strong enough, the radar receiver can detect it from a relatively low gain sidelobe. The radar, however, will process signals as if they were received in the main lobe. Therefore, jamming can be seen in directions other than where the jammer is located. To combat this, an omnidirectional antenna is used for a comparison signal. By comparing the signal strength as received by both the omnidirectional and the (directional) main antenna, signals can be identified that are not from the direction of interest. These signals are then ignored.[/color]

[edit]Polarization
[color=#000000]
Polarization can be used to filter out unwanted signals, such as jamming. If a jammer and receiver do not have the same polarization, the jamming signal will incur a loss that reduces its effectiveness. The four basic polarizations are linear horizontal, linear vertical, right-hand circular, and left-hand circular. The signal loss inherent in a cross polarized (transmitter different from receiver) pair is 3 dB for dissimilar types, and 17 dB for opposites.[/color]
[color=#000000]
Aside from power loss to the jammer, radar receivers can also benefit from using two or more antennas of differing polarization and comparing the signals received on each. This effect can effectively eliminate all jamming of the wrong polarization, although enough jamming may still obscure the actual signal.[/color]

[edit]Radiation homing
[color=#000000]
The other main aspect of ECCM, is to program sensors or seekers to detect attempts at ECM and possible even to take advantage of it. For example, some modern fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 and the AMRAAM are able to home in directly on sources of radar jamming if the jamming is too powerful to allow them to find and track the target normally. This mode, called 'home-on-jam', actually makes the missile's job easier. Some missile seekers actually target the enemy's radiation sources, and are therefore called "anti-radiation missiles" (ARM). The jamming in this case effectively becomes a beacon announcing the presence and location of the transmitter. This makes the use of such ECM a difficult decision; it may serve to obscure an exact location from a non-ARM missile, but in doing so it must put the jamming vehicle at risk of being targeted and hit by ARMs.[/color]

[StalaggtIKE]

Gaan Cathal, on 04 February 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

I think it's a little unfair to assume that point of view when it clearly affected his play style enough to initiate a build change. Infact, that post reads 'it affected my playstyle, so I changed it'.

That is called adapting. Most, if not all, people have changed their builds in order to be effective. The point is it currently no longer effect his playstyle, thus as he stated, there is no problem. No, his perception has changed, there still is, however, a problem.

[Solaxxas]

The biggest problemI have with ECM is that I can't tell who my friendlies are. If I see a group of mechs duking it out at weapons range I don't dare to fire as I can't tell who of them are my teammates. So basicly I have to lumber in on the 180m range to identify Friend or Foe, even if it's not a good range for me to fight. Occasionally you can hazard a guess, like well, our team didn't have lights or mediums at the start, so those must be enemies, but not nearly always. That's probably the stupidest effect of ECM, breaking contact with your teammates.

[DocBach]

Solaxxas, on 04 February 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

The biggest problemI have with ECM is that I can't tell who my friendlies are. If I see a group of mechs duking it out at weapons range I don't dare to fire as I can't tell who of them are my teammates. So basicly I have to lumber in on the 180m range to identify Friend or Foe, even if it's not a good range for me to fight. Occasionally you can hazard a guess, like well, our team didn't have lights or mediums at the start, so those must be enemies, but not nearly always. That's probably the stupidest effect of ECM, breaking contact with your teammates.

Most of the hardline ECM defenders will have no sympathy for your predicament. In their eyes, if you don't play in a team, you don't rate an opinion on the state of this game.

[MischiefSC]

Elo is coming, I have faith in that and can put up with it.

ECM however makes the game pretty unenjoyable for me. I like Battletech/Mechwarrior, I think the game is otherwise awesome. The utter clown-shoes ridiculous uber whole team stealth shield scramble everything make or break by how many are on each side ECM though just kills MWO for me. At this point it's a matter of some sort of ECM fix (I don't mean something goofy like the tweak to PPCs) coming out before the next game I want to get that's keeping me here.

I'd spend money on MWO. I almost do it every day I slowly grind away trying to get my D-DC to Elite via the F2P method instead of just dropping a few bucks and converting my huge pile of D-DC XP into general but then I remember that 'ECM is functioning as planned' and thus my stay here is probably limited to when the next game that doesn't have an 'except for' comes out and I'll feel like a twit for blowing money on a game I'll be quitting in a few weeks to a month.

So I don't recommend MWO to my friends. I say it's awesome but point to ECM and lack of solid matchmaking as a reason to wait to see if they get fixed.

That irks me. It really, really does. I want to love MWO. I want to pay money for it and be happy with my purchases. I want it to do well and show how awesome the IP is. This though.... ECM is a big deal for me. I can deal with it in game but it represents a clown-shoes wearing imbalance. It is bordering on dropping some clan tech in and saying 'when community warfare comes out this'll equal out we think'.

Really? Ninja whole team stealth shields that block all locks and info gathering? 1.5 tons, mech-limited? The only mech-limited item in game because, amazingly enough, it's stupidly imbalanced?

Ugh. Just gets me irritated. Everything else about the game is amazing.

Edited by MischiefSC, 04 February 2013 - 10:14 AM.