225 replies to this topic

[Umbra8]

Could you add to the poll:

The inability to target mechs or have them show on the minimap oustide of 200 meters, or have allied mechs shown when in an enemy ECM bubble cripples the ability to coordinate group tactics, especially when playing with people who are not using a 3rd party chat protocol, like teamspeak.

Thanks

[Asmudius Heng]

I cannot vote in this poll - the questions are skewed and do not encompass it all. Here is my take.

- ECM prevents people using SSRMs a huge amount while allowing the ECM carrier to continue to use them with impunity greatly enhancing their damage output essepcially against and with lights.
- ECM prevents a huge amount of targeting and information gathering. In a tactical game good manouvre warfare is reliant on communication and information. ECM make it very hard to get these things leading to less tactics not MORE tactics as some people claim.
- ECM is a band aid fix for broken LRM and SSRM design - if they fix LRMs and SSRMs then ECM could be implemented better.

A million good idad for balancing ECM, info warfarem and guided weapons are out there but the devs seem to insist this implementation is the correct way which baffles most people.

Fix LRMs and SSRMs to be balanced WITHOUT ECM
Make info warfare more interesting without additional equipment to start with
Then ECM can be implemented more like it should be (targetable but gives no information just the red square and blocks a heap of equipment)

Edited by Asmudius Heng, 03 February 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Carnivoris]

ECM effectively disables SSRMs as an effective weapon on anything but an ECM mech. That's my only concern with it.

[armyof1]

Personally I'm just surprised why the devs can't appreciate how they made one small piece of gear become way too powerful and cut back some of its' effects. Instead they decide to add changes to other weapons to try and negate the over-powering effects of ECM. Why not just fix what's wrong in the first place instead of pouring some extra glue on a basically flawed foundation and hope it'll get better? I seriously doubt we'll get a lot of PPC:s being able to hit a R3L travelling at 150kph very often. And even when you do get a hit, you're rewarded with a whopping 5 seconds without ECM.

And bottom line is that ECM does the most damage to PUGs because they could at least rely on the minimap to tell where you teammates are. With ECM you bring the small chance of the team with only PUGs to win the occasional match virtually down to zero as you will most certainly get scattered even after a short fight and maneuvering and then end up being singled out cannonfodder. The people that like ECM I really don't understand unless they just enjoy having overpowered gear that will tip the odds heavily in their favor and think it's rewarding to steamroll the other team, which I just find boring after a while as you just use gear to lessen the need for skill.

Edited by armyof1, 03 February 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Goose]

Where's the option for "There's no easy/ effective way to call for help if I can't put the problem on the sensor net"?

Trying to describe over the radio, let alone type it out, how unit X in position Y needs to go down often gets one killed, whereas just pushing R 'till you get the right bad guy, then calling to put 'em down, runs like a fright train.

Everybody and their brother knows what to do if they hear a call to smack X, so long as they can find X by pushing R and then move on said target.

Edited by Goose, 03 February 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[Wintersdark]

You know, I'd be happy if they removed the Counter ability from ECM, or the whole +1 to win aspect of it. Have one counter *all* ECM, or there simply be no counter ability.

I don't experience it, am I'm not playing 8mans, but I do understand how an ECM arms race can happen where you've got two teams with oodles of streaks, and it's all about who has one more ECM mech in the area to have total weapon dominance. Not that I think it's that important, but just because it's a very sketchy implementation that seems... dumb, to me.

I did vote "Because my teammates don't use TAG", not because I'm packing LRM's and I want them to TAG for me, but instead because every time I see someone with 40 tons of LRM's and ammo and no TAG laser, I want to kick them in the nuts for being an *****.

With that being said... I think ECM is, overall, pretty much fine.

TAG. Sure, SSRM's are useless in the bubble... but SSRM's are only a light vs. light weapon, or a crutch weapon (that isn't very good) for terrible players. I just don't care a lot about SSRM's.

It's much faster and easier to simply tear a light apart with lasers, autocannons, gauss, whatever else. They're so easy to hit now.

armyof1, on 03 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Personally I'm just surprised why the devs can't appreciate how they made one small piece of gear become way too powerful and cut back some of its' effects. Instead they decide to add changes to other weapons to try and negate the over-powering effects of ECM. Why not just fix what's wrong in the first place instead of pouring some extra glue on a basically flawed foundation and hope it'll get better? I seriously doubt we'll get a lot of PPC:s being able to hit a R3L travelling at 150kph very often. And even when you do get a hit, you're rewarded with a whopping 5 seconds without ECM.

I regularly hammer ECM's with Gauss and PPC's, have no trouble whatsoever doing it. And I'm not a particularly amazing shot or anything - just learn how much to lead your target. It's really pretty basic. With weapons like those, you don't need to hit specific locations, you're doing such substantial damage you mess them right up regardless.

[Deamhan]

You left one out. You don't know the enemy's load out until you are too close for it to matter. The course of action you take and who you prioritize is often determine by what the enemy brings to the field. Does that guy have regular PPCs? Get within 90m. Does that Cat A1 have nothing but SRM6 (oh wait of course it does lol)? Stay outside of 270m and aim for the arms.

If an Atlas has ECM, it is often first focus but lights with ECM will often take back seat to other targets like those above. Gauss/AC20 Catapult or Cataphract being another example of a priority target.

[Kadin Shino]

So would having a integrated voice server in MWO fix a lot of the ECM difficultys? Assuming everyone is using voice and is talking we could have way more coordinate pugs?

I believe this would also build pugs to be way more competitive then normal.

In mech assault groups that where pugs and had mics always did better then groups without.

Thoughts?

[Moromillas]

Odins Fist, on 03 February 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

ECM is fine... Move along now, nothing to see here.

Did they just patch it?

[armyof1]

Wintersdark, on 03 February 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

I regularly hammer ECM's with Gauss and PPC's, have no trouble whatsoever doing it. And I'm not a particularly amazing shot or anything - just learn how much to lead your target. It's really pretty basic. With weapons like those, you don't need to hit specific locations, you're doing such substantial damage you mess them right up regardless.

I guess it depends on where you are located, here in Northern Euope my ping jumps around 130-150 and that messes up the timing more. But still when you say hammer ECM's it doesn't say much since there is a difference hitting an Atlas at 50kph or a R3L zigging and zagging at 150kph.

[Vlad Ward]

armyof1, on 03 February 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

I guess it depends on where you are located, here in Northern Euope my ping jumps around 130-150 and that messes up the timing more. But still when you say hammer ECM's it doesn't say much since there is a difference hitting an Atlas at 50kph or a R3L zigging and zagging at 150kph.

I can smash a Raven moving at 150kph no problem in my Sniper-oriented Mechs. Having a crappy ping will always adversely affect your gameplay regardless of how ECM works.

Personally, I like ECM because it helps create a more dynamic balance between LRMs, AMS, ECM, and TAG without adversely affecting direct-fire weapons.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 03 February 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[armyof1]

Kadin Shino, on 03 February 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

So would having a integrated voice server in MWO fix a lot of the ECM difficultys? Assuming everyone is using voice and is talking we could have way more coordinate pugs?

I believe this would also build pugs to be way more competitive then normal.

In mech assault groups that where pugs and had mics always did better then groups without.

Thoughts?

It would help but that would require everyone to be able to give good info and not "OMG I'm hit, help now!". But I believe that is another issue, what should be done is balance ECM itself, instead of looking for a way to circumvent the problem instead of attacking the problem itself. It makes me wonder as I have some software experience if the guy that programmed ECM has quit from Piranha and didn't leave decent documentation when he left. So now instead of actually changing the programming for ECM which would take a lot of time and effort, they just try to find workarounds. Because otherwise I can't understand why they refuse to change something that I and clearly a lot of people find seriously flawed.

More importantly it makes it even harder for new players to get into the game as they're given such a minimum survivability from the get go. And please no comments about "Get teamspeak you noob without social skills", because that's not how most new players would do. They run a few games, get totally annihilated whenever they don't have a 4-man team on their side and think well this sucks and goes to another game that actually give beginners a decent chance to try out the game without being put through a meatgrinder.

Edited by armyof1, 03 February 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

Vlad Ward, on 03 February 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

I can smash a Raven moving at 150kph no problem in my Sniper-oriented Mechs. Having a crappy ping will always adversely affect your gameplay regardless of how ECM works.

Personally, I like ECM because it helps create a more dynamic balance between LRMs, AMS, ECM, and TAG without adversely affecting direct-fire weapons.

But see, us high pings (250ms+) used lock on weapons as a crutch. I can still do good in my K2. But leading shots and mech movements, especially your own, screws up the server location of your mech making us shoot from places we've walked past awhile ago.

[Vlad Ward]

Kaspirikay, on 03 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

But see, us high pings (250ms+) used lock on weapons as a crutch. I can still do good in my K2. But leading shots and mech movements, especially your own, screws up the server location of your mech making us shoot from places we've walked past awhile ago.

I think what you really need are some EU servers rather than ECM changes.

[DocBach]

Vlad Ward, on 03 February 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

I think what you really need are some EU servers rather than ECM changes.

Wy don't we settle for both?

[Kaspirikay]

Vlad Ward, on 03 February 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

I think what you really need are some EU servers rather than ECM changes.

That would help. Still, ecm shouldn't be this powerful for such a light equipment.
On a sidenote, i'd only see improvement on a pacific server. Too bad theres not a lot of pacific players.

[James Warren]

I don't feel like the poll options adequately describe my gripes with this piece of equipment.
While I don't feel like ECM is ruining the game and I want to avoid all the doom and gloom that seems to breed on these forums, I do agree that it is unbalanced in its current form.


For such a lightweight piece of equipment it provides a huge advantage. I think the immunity to streaks and LRMs isn't as great a boon as being able to move unnoticed (lets face it, there are plenty of players out there with tunnel-vision) or at least attracting far less attention.

If I run the ECM cicada I fare much better than I do in a similar build without ECM. The ECM version even has fewer armor points and heatsinks, yet I never manage to do more or even equal amounts of damage on average, simply because I am much more noticeable to enemies. I'm not just dieing from streaks or LRMS either, I'm drawing more attention because of the red blip on the enemy's radar. With ECM, it takes a little while to distinguish friend from foe in the melee, which often is enough time for a fast mech like the Cicada to *** in and duck out. People turn their attention to something else because you're difficult to track.

Similarly, the Atlas with ECM barely sacrifices firepower or armor to compensate for the enormous utility value provided by ECM, not just to the equipped mech but to the whole team. For a slow mech that can (should?) become quite vulnerable to LRMs, having ECM counts for far more than a few more tons of armor. I expect the upcoming change to PPCs will alleviate this somewhat.

I love the idea behind ECM, however I would prefer if players had to actually think about whether they actually wanted it on a build or not, rather than it always being the 'best' choice.

edit: So apparently en-eye-pee is a censored word. Who'd have thought.

Edited by James Warren, 03 February 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Cleverbird]

My only gripe with ECM, is that once my teammates enter the bubble, I cannot tell friend from foe when I'm at range

[Tuku]

I picked DDC is superior to all but that view I have held since before ECM Atlas Pilot for life !

Also ECM is fine....well maybe needs tweaks but still not as bad as people say.

[Slepnir]

The problem i think is the way they made ECM work in MWO that isnt even close to the way it works in TT for disrupt

the way it is supposed to work-

ECM DOES NOT-
.prevent lock ons from guided or semi guided weapons. it just prevents the artemis IV/NARC bonus

what it does do is-
.jam BAPs within the ECM bubble.
.jam C3 network connections
.counter jamming- ECM can counter other ECMs in the bubble-the more you have counter the lesser enemies-
so that works like it should

.ghost imaging-makes it harder to pick out a target by causing mulitple ghost targets. multiple ECMs doing this compound just like counter ECM...in MWO making lock on times longer would make sense...or making mulitple fake enemy counters/targets appear.

The un-intended consequence of ECM is that many mechs are getting ignored because taking ECM is so imprtant with the way it works at the moment. its causing a lack of diversity when most of the player purchased enemy mechs you see in-game are DDC atlas's, cicadas, ravens and the occasional commando with ECM.

Premades may add a few other chassis in there but they usually have at least 1 if not 2 of the above mentioned ECM chassis in the force.

Remove the lock-on block and replace it with ghiost imaging/artemis IV disabling and you will see the problem with ECM complaints go away