225 replies to this topic

[Kyone Akashi]

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

"Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles."

This I guess is kinda confusing sense Streaks don't fire unless they get the go-ahead from its targeting systems, and sense ECM counters the targeting system, one would say then Streaks don't fire, but it says they do, they just fire like ordinary SRMs, which I am fine with and even mention in another of my posts that they should.

The most interesting part is that this is a feature of the Angel ECM, not the Guardian. Meaning, the Guardian ECM is not intended to mess with Streak locks. Why do we have this in MWO?

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

This is what we need. As I have been saying before, at a distance ECM doesn't hide you from radar, you can still pick them up, assuming you have LOS of course. But you couldn't tell what they are packing and such.

Exactly. I'd even keep the loss of sensor data in close vicinity just to make things interesting (or perhaps allow an irregular short "glimpse" through the electronic veil, the chance modified by sensor modules and equipment?). In fact, as soon as the ECM carrier walks close enough to an opposing 'Mech, that one should stop receiving the feed from his lance, now treating all Mechs the same and unable to read the data from anyone (including names and such) as long as its sensor suite is under the effect of ECM.

So ... can we have this, please?

[Orzorn]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

This should not be happening with the current iteration of ECM. The effect is mostly psychological, based on my observations of the gross misinformation regarding ECM on these boards ("it makes people invisible", etc).

Definitely. The number of items I hear stuff about "invisbility" or team mates getting shot because of it are pretty ridiculous. I don't recall one time of us shooting each other because ECM was around. You still targeting info when inside ECM's bubble.

Quote

ECM does two big things. It forces LRM users to be team players, and it relegates SSRMs out of a reliable primary role.

Ah, but those "two things" are so much more. They're both true, but don't show the whole picture. By forcing LRMs to be "team players" (either they take TAG, or scouts take TAG. Scouts taking TAG is unlikely, because they'll be the first ones inside ECM's radius), it kills LRMs are support weapons used in singles or pairs on mechs like the Centurion or Dragon.

It forces SSRMs out of a primary role...for mechs without ECM. Mechs with ECM continue to use SSRMs to full effect as light (and even medium) hunters, who are very efficient at it. Fighting a Raven 3L in my Hunchback is pretty much a crapshoot. Can't turn faster enough to keep up, and don't have the raw weapon count to kill them if I get only a few seconds of fire.

I just can't believe that this is healthy for the metagame. Where you see people forced to play as a team, I see builds forced into extremes. I don't like extremes.

Edited by Orzorn, 04 February 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

This should not be happening with the current iteration of ECM. The effect is mostly psychological, based on my observations of the gross misinformation regarding ECM on these boards ("it makes people invisible", etc).

ECM does two big things. It forces LRM users to be team players, and it relegates SSRMs out of a reliable primary role.

Integrated voice chat will help a lot with coordinating through the radar disruption effects.

Regarding ELO, even if there are only 12 experienced players online, the system would still put them on opposite teams with 6 lower-tier players filling in the gaps. In no situation should you have a team full of high-ELO players facing a team of low-ELO players.

Correction.

ECM makes the entire team far more difficult to see at range and prevents targeting to identify unit type and condition.

It covers how many mechs are in an area at range and up close.

It prevents local map usage at close range, not only blocking accurate targeting of enemies but identification of friendly units.

It blocks locking of targets by LRMs or any use of allied spotting for indirect fire without use of a TAG - something no pug is going to carry unless it's for his own use.

It blocks use of SSRMs to target anyone within range.

That's not even all of it but ECM has a pretty huge effect. Having it means you can sneak around, cover your unit composition and condition. Not having it means the enemy sees you all the way across the map by LOS, your type, condition and weapon loadout. It means that if you don't have it the enemy can rain LRMs down on you until it stops being funny. It means that if you do have it you can rain over-powered LRMs down on people with impunity.

It's also the 'forces them to be team players' part. I shouldn't say 'also' with that. Its function is to multiply the power and effectiveness of team-play in a way even tabletop never did and that was impossible to play without multiple players.

Its purpose is to kick people in the teeth for not playing on organized teams, to allow 1 unit with 1 item to screw a half dozen systems on the other team and cripple their ability to use teamwork without VOIP.

Hence, again. I find ECM not just 'imbalanced' but, well, for lack of a better term 'terrible'. I'd be happier with pay to win mechanics like cash for clan tech weapons. Those are just available to anyone who wants to spend the money.

As to Elo, what it will likely do is marginalize the one-sided stomps based on disparity of player quality from one team to the next. However, what it's not going to do is provide a gradual slide in challenge - you can have a Atlas D-DC with ECM and only have played 10 games. It's not going to be a more gradual training experience for new players. They're getting thrown under the bus now and will after Elo. That's not new however, every MP game is like that. It's the fiddly micro-managed stuff like PPCs response to ECMs that's going to create the issue. You're just not going to have synced 4xs dropping against newbies and pugs so much but unless the player population grows by a factor of 5 or more it's not going to be a smooth progression grade; it'll be top-heavy. Things like ECM and the various barriers in place to making the game enjoyable to new players will just reinforce that.

More complexity does not always equal better. In any case though I don't want to beat this dead horse any more than I have already. Thank you for a reasonable debate on the subject.

[Vlad Ward]

Orzorn, on 04 February 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Definitely. The number of items I hear stuff about "invisbility" or team mates getting shot because of it are pretty ridiculous. I don't recall one time of us shooting each other because ECM was around. You still targeting info when inside ECM's bubble.


Ah, but those "two things" are so much more. They're both true, but don't show the whole picture. By forcing LRMs to be "team players" (either they take TAG, or scouts take TAG. Scouts taking TAG is unlikely, because they'll be the first ones inside ECM's radius), it kills LRMs are support weapons used in singles or pairs on mechs like the Centurion or Dragon.

It forces SSRMs out of a primary role...for mechs without ECM. Mechs with ECM continue to use SSRMs to full effect as light (and even medium) hunters, who are very efficient at it. Fighting a Raven 3L in my Hunchback is pretty much a crapshoot. Can't turn faster enough to keep up, and don't have the raw weapon count to kill them if I get only a few seconds of fire.

I just can't believe that this is healthy for the metagame. Where you see people forced to play as a team, I see builds forced into extremes. I don't like extremes.

Extremes were always going to dominate the competitive scene, though. It's just a matter of Generalists versus Specialists, and it's been hashed out hundreds of times across just about every online game ever made.

Fielding 8 Generalist Mechs will never, ever stand a chance against 2 Lances of 4 Specialist Mechs each. Heck, we even see this when we do 8v8 drops. Any time we end up with a largely General configuration, we have a hard time. Conversely, when we launch 2 distinct Lances with predefined strengths, weaknesses, and abilities, we tear things up.

General builds with a weapon for every range just don't translate well to a real-time game. All you end up with is a Mech that can't use all of its guns at any particular range, and is thus perpetually short on firepower.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 04 February 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Orzorn]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Extremes were always going to dominate the competitive scene, though. It's just a matter of Generalists versus Specialists, and it's been hashed out hundreds of times across just about every online game ever made.

Fielding 8 Generalist Mechs will never, ever stand a chance against 2 Lances of 4 Specialist Mechs each. Heck, we even see this when we do 8v8 drops. Any time we end up with a largely General configuration, we have a hard time. Conversely, when we launch 2 distinct Lances with predefined strengths, weaknesses, and abilities, we tear things up.

General builds with a weapon for every range just don't translate well to a real-time game. All you end up with is a Mech that can't use all of its guns at any particular range, and is thus perpetually short on firepower.

Perhaps its because I play a Dragon, but I don't quite hold that view. I understand the idea of too many generalists, but having played several generalist builds very well back in CB, I think, especially as a support mech position (or rather, mostly as a support mech), generalist builds can be flexible and powerful.

Regardless, I'm with Mischief in saying that I think I've said all I can on the subject (also I need to eat dinner). I think most people in this thread have been extremely reasonable, and that's a great thing. No doubt most people took away something from the opposing view.

I just hope PGI makes the right choices.

[Mister Maf]

I haven't been bothered to read 11 pages, so excuse any artifacts of that in my post.

I think that if team A has even one D-DC or 3L whilst team B does not, that team B is at such a huge disadvantage to the degree to they are...is pretty broken.

Is it an automatic win? Of course not. I play in coordinated groups in Teamspeak, which helps a lot to nullify the effects when you can keep track of enemy ECM mechs and act accordingly. I also mostly use direct-fire weapons, so it doesn't affect me as much as it does some other players. I'll also acknowledge that when I get in a duel with a 3L in my Centurion D, it's fair that there be some counter to my sSRMs - against a light not equipped with ECM, they basically amount to free no-skill hits against hard-to-hit targets

But - therein lies the problem. It provides so many things to mechs carrying it that to pilot without it on a platform that can use it almost seems obsolete. Light mechs, among other roles, are supposed to be able to scout for their team and perform hit-and-run maneuvers. ECM boosts the ability to scout and ambush so much that to try to do it without it is comparatively ineffectual. The enemy can detect the scout and scare it off and the ambushee can see the ambusher coming, defeating the purpose of an "unexpected strike" - unless the mech is equipped with ECM. It seems silly not to use it. What is supposed to be trading weight for utility is actually standard equipment.

Meanwhile, why pilot any Atlas but the D-DC? It's able to serve as a strong backbone for the main heavyweight force of your team, masking the entire group (or almost the entire group) from LRMs, a major source of damage for some teams and a safe way to engage heavyweights. Sure, there's always TAG - but in a pub match, who uses it, and how practical is it in all the chaos? Sure, some people may prefer the hardpoints provided by other Atlas variants, but of what importance is it when you can easily surround yourself with friendly heavy and assault mechs that want to enjoy the cover? You become the King in chess.

Like the sSRMs, it's fair for there to be some counter to LRMs - but to counter LRMs and provide sensor masking and scrambling? The benefit-to-cost/weight ratio is laughably skewed.

[Coralld]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

The most interesting part is that this is a feature of the Angel ECM, not the Guardian. Meaning, the Guardian ECM is not intended to mess with Streak locks. Why do we have this in MWO?

Yes it does.
From sarna. (Wished I actually had the tech handbook to be a 100% sure so some one with it can correct me if they wish.)
"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems..."

Yes I know how Streaks are suppose to work, they don't actually lock on like they do in MWO, but ECM still screws with them any way. So I say, for MWO, Streaks lose lock, but can be fired like regular SRMs. Problem solved.

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Exactly. I'd even keep the loss of sensor data in close vicinity just to make things interesting (or perhaps allow an irregular short "glimpse" through the electronic veil, the chance modified by sensor modules and equipment?). In fact, as soon as the ECM carrier walks close enough to an opposing 'Mech, that one should stop receiving the feed from his lance, now treating all Mechs the same and unable to read the data from anyone (including names and such) as long as its sensor suite is under the effect of ECM.

So ... can we have this, please?

I have no problem with this.

[Kyone Akashi]

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Yes it does.
From sarna. (Wished I actually had the tech handbook to be a 100% sure so some one with it can correct me if they wish.)
"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems..."

Yes I know how Streaks are suppose to work, they don't actually lock on like they do in MWO, but ECM still screws with them any way.

But how exactly does the Guardian suite "screw with Streaks"? You are thinking of the Angel ECM - this upgraded version is the one that starts actually affecting them, and hence turns them into normal SRMs.

Hai, the background description says it "interferes with guided weaponry", but ( a ) leaves out a detailed explanation on how exactly this interference looks like and ( b ) is operating on the assumption that Streaks are not guided. So a replication of the rules in MWO would allow Streak lock, just like this weapon system retains its full efficiency in the tabletop.

Alternatively, of course we could also try to make the Streaks more like their tabletop equivalent. Losing the ability to turn tight circles and being launched from almost any angle would already go a long way in making them less scary, I think. Some people have suggested tweaking the turn radius - it could be a viable solution.

I will have to dig up my handbook as well to make sure, however. I shall do so when I get home.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 04 February 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[danust]

Just increase the wt. would do a lot to balance. More powerful than any weapon. 120 kph light with 1LLas and 2-3MLas and ECM is a bit much to believe at 35 tons and under. A hopped up med or heavy can barely do that with no ecm. This skews them to hunting heavies a lot for the $ etc and really not a scout goal. Patch and more experience has helped with the god powers of the 3L.

Maybe a random token ECM on a pug team with out one. Pugging against 3 ecm's is a short life. But I can live without this one.

[DodgerH2O]

shintakie, on 03 February 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

This is the basis of every argument I've had about ECM. Ignorin the effectiveness of ECM compared to its weight. Ignorin its ability to negate LRM's, SSRM's. Ignorin the fact that it doesn't even allow me to get a target readout to know where I should be shootin at in order to down someone. Ignorin basically every gameplay part of ECM, it still is incredibly obnoxious because there is nothin for a pug team to do about it.

You can't do the most basic call outs because you can't get a lock on anyone. Unless you have TAG there's no easy way to tell if the mech in front of you is friendly or hostile unless they start shootin at you (even then it might be a mistake because they can't tell either). Not only that you can't even count on herd mentality when ECM is around because there's no easy way to direct your team to go in one direction or another.

In a PUG match without ECM, at the very least people will see the triangle pop up on their screen and know that there are enemies in whatever direction that is. If you're quick you might even be able to tell them what it is. In a match with ECM you don't even get that unless someone happens to run TAG, happens to see the opposin mechs, and happens to light one of the mechs up for a long enough time that your team realizes they're there. Its frustratin to deal with because it has removed basically every single tool that one could use to get a pug team to work together.

THIS. I don't care about lockon of LRMs or even SSRMs. My favorite part of this game is how reliant it is on communication, not just verbal, but sharing of information with allies by all means. If I can't see one or more of my allies on my radar that reduces my ability to coordinate with them. If I can't tell the loadout of that mech in front of me I don't know whether to get closer or run away. If I don't know where any of my allies are it becomes orders of magnitude more difficult to stay out of their line of fire, or form lines of fire with them, or fall back into their ranks if I've pushed out too far.

I think many of the people, both pro and against ECM don't look deeply enough into the strategy behind this game.

Edited by DodgerH2O, 04 February 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Coralld]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

But how exactly does the Guardian suite "screw with Streaks"? You are thinking of the Angel ECM - this upgraded version is the one that starts actually affecting them, and hence turns them into normal SRMs.

Hai, the background description says it "interferes with guided weaponry", but ( a ) leaves out a detailed explanation on how exactly this interference looks like and ( b ) is operating on the assumption that Streaks are not guided. So a replication of the rules in MWO would allow Streak lock, just like this weapon system retains its full efficiency in the tabletop.

Alternatively, of course we could also try to make the Streaks more like their tabletop equivalent. Losing the ability to turn tight circles and being launched from almost any angle would already go a long way in making them less scary, I think. Some people have suggested tweaking the turn radius - it could be a viable solution.

I will have to dig up my handbook as well to make sure, however. I shall do so when I get home.

*sighs and rubs the side of my temples*
Guardian ECM does the same thing as Angel ECM BUT Angel ECM has increased range, can not have its jamming signal be picked up by BAP, and when switched to ECCM can counter two Guardian ECM mechs and takes two Guardian ECCM mechs to counter Angel ECM.

As for how ECM screws with Streaks but allows Streaks to fire like regular SRMs is that I believe it gives the targeting system a faulty go-ahead when in an ECM bubble, because other wise Streaks wouldn't fire if the targeting system says they would miss.

I agree that Streaks should have their turning radius nerfed.

[Kyone Akashi]

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

*sighs and rubs the side of my temples*
Guardian ECM does the same thing as Angel ECM BUT Angel ECM has increased range, can not have its jamming signal be picked up by BAP, and when switched to ECCM can counter two Guardian ECM mechs and takes two Guardian ECCM mechs to counter Angel ECM.

So would that be a case of Sarna omitting the Streak interference rule for one of the two suites even though they actually apply to both?

Hmmh, time to bust out the books. Heading home now!

[Like a Sir]

I voted: I feel like ECM cripples the ability to coordinate tactics. To elaborate, unless you are in team speak (which 60% of the time I am), it is a pain to get people to shoot at the same target. I don't feel like it's overpowered as hell per say, but I feel like other equipment should negate it in certain ways not even completely, just some.

Now I know the PPC change is upcoming, but perhaps it would make sense if they also made BAP do something as well... I don't know.

[Coralld]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

So would that be a case of Sarna omitting the Streak interference rule for one of the two suites even though they actually apply to both?

Hmmh, time to bust out the books. Heading home now!

It sounds like it does apply to both, I have read through both Guardian and Angel ECM probably four times today on sarna comparing and contrasting and that's what I am getting out of it.
What ever the handbook says then I will submit to that.

Edited by Coralld, 04 February 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[Hot Rod]

ECM has a build in "Friend Or Foe" disable mechanic which is, in the worst case, screwing with the whole team.

I'm fine that ECM is a bundle of 3 different modules (A-ECM, Non Signature Hiding Bubble Of Surprise) but the point with FOF scrambling is the worst, esp for pugs.

[danust]

After reading the through the posts again I still say make ECM cost something. If I put ecm on this mech my weapons loadout will suffer. This is a primary weapon and deserves attention and cost. The effects are arguable but all that at no cost is just not right.

ECM platforms as hunters in melee and no cost is so OP. Make the DC pay 10-12 tons for it and see how many there are let alone the lights paying more. I like the anti-missle storm ecm. Make us pay for it.

[Asmudius Heng]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Extremes were always going to dominate the competitive scene, though. It's just a matter of Generalists versus Specialists, and it's been hashed out hundreds of times across just about every online game ever made.

Fielding 8 Generalist Mechs will never, ever stand a chance against 2 Lances of 4 Specialist Mechs each. Heck, we even see this when we do 8v8 drops. Any time we end up with a largely General configuration, we have a hard time. Conversely, when we launch 2 distinct Lances with predefined strengths, weaknesses, and abilities, we tear things up.

General builds with a weapon for every range just don't translate well to a real-time game. All you end up with is a Mech that can't use all of its guns at any particular range, and is thus perpetually short on firepower.

Largely true - there are some instances a generalist mech might work well in, but as a team specialist mechs in groups deployed at the right times are best. The only thing that throws that a ittle is the random maps ... some maps your specialist team might be terrible if you are on an open map if you went mostly brawlers - or any brawlers - compared to a pure long range team. Who might get screwed by a city map conversly.

The generalist roles in classic BT were there for a few reasons.

1. The mechanics of the game were very different than an actual first person representation due to randomness of dice role etc.
2. In BT customising your mech was HARD. It was expensive, difficult, and not guaranteed of success. As such, mechs cam equipped as generalists so they could be deployed and be useful in many situations - they also had specialist mechs as well mind you.

Generalists will never work really well in MWO in high end competition - the game is simply not designed for that. The negatiaves of any extreme boat etc are usually able to be overcome easily with teamwork and positioning.

anyway that was kinda off topic but its a good conversation to have - the balance between specilists and generalists is a difficult one to achieve. I would love to see more generalist loadouts being useful but until the way much of the game works is changed it is not going to be the case very often.

[Kyone Akashi]

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

It sounds like it does apply to both, I have read through both Guardian and Angel ECM probably four times today on sarna comparing and contrasting and that's what I am getting out of it.
What ever the handbook says then I will submit to that.

How does it sound like it would apply to both if one of the two articles does not even mention Streaks?

But:

"Within its effective radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems: Active Probe, Artemis IV FCS, Narc Missile Beacon, C3 and C3i Computer. The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers."
- Total Warfare, page 134, ECM Suite

Streaks or other targeting equipment, with the exception of the above, are simply not mentioned in the rules for the ECM suite, and as such should continue to work. But the entry on the Angel suite makes it even more obvious:

"The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM (see p. 134, TW), but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles."
- Tactical Operations, page 269, Angel ECM

Also, it does appear that Streaks really are homing missiles in the TT, too:

"Streak short-range missiles, with their ability to conserve ammo by using a targeting laser for the missiles to home in on, were rediscovered by the Free Worlds League in 3055 and the other nations in 3040. [...] In addition to the specialized electronics of the targeting system, the missiles require built-in guidance technology and power sources, doubling the cost of ammunition compared to a standard SRM."
- ER3052, page 100, Missile Technology

"Developed as a means of conserving ammunition, the Streak system literally refuses to fire unless all of the launcher's tubes simultaneously achieve a 'hard lock' on their target."
- Tech Manual, page 230

I suppose the Angel suite is just a lot more sophisticated and stronger than the Guardian (twice its jamming value!), and so can affect targeting systems including Streak on a deeper level, where any 'Mechs innate ECCM is still sufficient to preserve these functions when facing the Guardian suite.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 04 February 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[DocBach]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

good stuff

Here's the first description of ECM we were given, in any Battletech form:


GUARDIAN ECM SUITE
The Guardian ECM Suite is a broad-spectrum
jamming and electronic countermeasure device,
designed to reduce the efficiency of enemy longrange
scanning and surveillance equipment. The
Guardian interferes with sensor readings, preventing
identification at ranges of more than 180 meters.
Closer than that, 'Mech pilots usually rely on their own
vision in case their sensors cannot override the
Guardian's jamming.

Technical Readout 2750

The rules were incredibly simple, at that state of the game, it didn't even jam the other electronic warfare devices, it just gave a unit in Battleforce an ECM chit, which pretty much hid the unit composition type from the enemy. However, in later editions like Tactical Operations, ECM functions almost exactly like this, making scanning roles to see enemy damage more difficult, and within 180 meters, can cause you to lose the ability to spot a target with standard sensors, in of course addition to the defeat of Narc, Beagle, Artemis and C3 it got when those systems were introduced.

Edited by DocBach, 04 February 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Hmm... multiquote seems to be clearing every time I go to the next page, so I've lost the quotes I was going to use.

I think people are very confused about ELO and the new matchmaking, or PGI has been very misleading as to how it will be implemented. Nowhere that I've seen has any official reference to "tiers" been used. The info they've given explicitly stated that the matchmaker would use the average score of the team to balance teams. This suggests that most teams will have a range of skill levels, with a couple high-ranked players, a couple low-ranked players, and the rest scattered in between. Or you may get one team with several high-ranked players (maybe premade) and several low-ranked players vs a team with all mid-ranked players. Occasionally, you may get drops of all similarly-ranked players on both teams, but these will most likely be the exception, rather than the rule, aside from the possibility of regular premade groups clashing.

Unless PGI has misrepresented their plans for the new matchmaker, it won't stop new or unskilled players from encountering better players or even smaller premades from which they can learn. What it will stop is those players from getting discouraged by being consistently pug-stomped. It will stop the exploitative nature of sync-dropping. And while it won't stop good players, solo or premade, from dropping with scrubs in their team, at least the other team should have roughly the same balance.

I do think that at some point they'll have to find a way to incorporate something similar to BV. After all, having a good player in a top of the line mech with all the bells and whistles is very different from having them in some pile of crap while they try to elite a different variant.