75 replies to this topic

[Satan n stuff]

Given the efficiency of magnetically propelling a slug across the map compared to shooting a bunch of electrically charged particles at something the gauss should have much smaller capacitors than a PPC. A kid in high school can build a coil gun powered by 12 Volt batteries. Now imagine a kid building a lightning gun powered by the same batteries with the same size capacitor bank, yeah that's not happenning.

Edit: There are technologies to make an efficient lightning gun but I don't think BT has electrolasers.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 27 May 2012 - 03:30 AM.

[WraithTR1]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 May 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

I just hope they move away from teh TT bs and make it so Gauss RIfle ammo DOES NOT EXPLODE... There is no reason that is should since it has no gun powder and no other explosive in it.. A ammo hit to Gauss rifle should just destroy the feed and disable the gun.. nothing else...

The only type of Gauss Rifle that I can find that it mentions it's ammo explodes when hit was the experimental Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle that fires a fragmenting round that seems to contain an explosive charge. The earliest book I believe I have that has the Gauss Rifle in it is TRO 2750 that just explains what the Gauss Rifle is, the range, weight, critical space, and ammo (10 shots instead of 8). Nothing about if the ammo or GR explode when critted. The next earliest is the original TRO 3050 and it states that the GR ammo causes no explosion.

[WiCkEd]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 May 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

WHich is first came out YEARS ago it was ammo.. didn;t know of teh change.. But that makes no sense either... WHy would teh Gauss RIfle overload and explode but Lasers and PPCs don't?

When? Link? I've been playing B-tech for some time and the ammo has never been more than nickel slugs the size of basketballs. It's never been explosive (I know it's not nickel so calm down, you know who you are)

[Sassori]

Gauss Rifle ammo doesn't explode, the Gauss Rifle does. If your Gauss Rifle gets crit, you aren't using it anyways so doesn't matter if it does a meager amount of damage. It's still better than taking a hit to a single ton of Machine Gun ammo. You can fit a Gauss Rifle onto a Centurion's Right Arm if you can find the weight as it's significantly heavier than the AC-10. You can fit a Gauss Rifle into the right torso of a hunchback as well if you find the extra ton. Gauss Rifle's weigh 1 more ton than an AC-20 IIRC.

There will be plenty of mech's capable of fitting Gauss Rifle's the problem is the weight. The Hollander has tissue paper armor and is pretty danged slow for that Gauss Rifle. It's not a very stable weapon platform.

P.S. To those talking about logistical nightmares? The BattleMech itself is a logistical nightmare. There are mass produced variants for every mech I believe, if not then nearly so. Then there are custom variants like: Dang my AC-10 got shot off, guess I'll put an AC-5 there instead and use the extra tons for more armor or whatever.

The BattleMech is not the same thing as a tank, you plan for reloads and armor based on what you've got, and you salvage whenever possible. It's not like modern militaries.

[Alfred VonGunn]

WiCkEd, on 27 May 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

When? Link? I've been playing B-tech for some time and the ammo has never been more than nickel slugs the size of basketballs. It's never been explosive (I know it's not nickel so calm down, you know who you are)

I started playing BT when it was still called Battledroids before teh first law suit in 1983.. You expect a link to stuff prior to the internet:). We did everything in books then...

The Mercs yes have all the various odd custom stuff. But for the most part the House units stayed standard. ANy of the books when they talk about custom mechs they are the exception not the rule.

[Satan n stuff]

Christopher Dayson, on 27 May 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Gauss Rifle ammo doesn't explode, the Gauss Rifle does. If your Gauss Rifle gets crit, you aren't using it anyways so doesn't matter if it does a meager amount of damage. It's still better than taking a hit to a single ton of Machine Gun ammo. You can fit a Gauss Rifle onto a Centurion's Right Arm if you can find the weight as it's significantly heavier than the AC-10. You can fit a Gauss Rifle into the right torso of a hunchback as well if you find the extra ton. Gauss Rifle's weigh 1 more ton than an AC-20 IIRC.

There will be plenty of mech's capable of fitting Gauss Rifle's the problem is the weight. The Hollander has tissue paper armor and is pretty danged slow for that Gauss Rifle. It's not a very stable weapon platform.

P.S. To those talking about logistical nightmares? The BattleMech itself is a logistical nightmare. There are mass produced variants for every mech I believe, if not then nearly so. Then there are custom variants like: Dang my AC-10 got shot off, guess I'll put an AC-5 there instead and use the extra tons for more armor or whatever.

The BattleMech is not the same thing as a tank, you plan for reloads and armor based on what you've got, and you salvage whenever possible. It's not like modern militaries.

Actually it is, you don't need to have an inventory for every single mech as the military as a whole will be using every available weapon and ammo type anyway because there aren't that many of them. There aren't nearly as many kinds of weapons you can put on a mech as you've got for warfare in real life. There are dozens or hundreds of different kinds of weapons and ammo available for any modern weapon class that's why modern militaries standardise their equipment. Not doing so would be a logistical nightmare.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 27 May 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[WiCkEd]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 May 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

I started playing BT when it was still called Battledroids before teh first law suit in 1983.. You expect a link to stuff prior to the internet:). We did everything in books then...

The Mercs yes have all the various odd custom stuff. But for the most part the House units stayed standard. ANy of the books when they talk about custom mechs they are the exception not the rule.

Do not try to start a ******* contest with me. Battledroids...either way you're spouting game rules that haven't been used in over 20 years. Why on earth would they fall back to that? Even in the early 90's Gauss Rifle ammunition did not explode. Why are you even talking?

[Sassori]

***** n stuff, on 27 May 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Actually it is, you don't need to have an inventory for every single mech as the military as a whole will be using every available weapon and ammo type anyway because there aren't that many of them. There aren't nearly as many kinds of weapons you can put on a mech as you've got for warfare in real life. There are dozens or hundreds of different kinds of weapons and ammo available for any modern weapon class that's why modern militaries standardise their equipment. Not doing so would be a logistical nightmare.

It's /ALREADY/ a logistical nightmare.

For example: Your force is defending a planet. That planet may not even have the capability to make ammunition or replacement weapons for your mech's. Therefor you've got to import them from another planet that is /weeks/ away, minimum, as they're not going to use a command circuit for ammo distribution.

This lack of real supply chain, lack of instant communication with the people who make the decisions, and lack of ability to even commandeer supplies on many battlefields means that no matter how you try to standardize it just won't work.

Take into account also that not every Successor State can even produce every mech. Let alone the type of weapon that is in use for that mech. Standardization simply cannot exist because of the technological aspects of interstellar travel and the vagaries of mech construction.

Given the wide range of weights available for mech's alone standardization simply isn't an option, and this isn't even counting things like conventional forces like infantry, tanks, aerospace fighters, vtol's, etc.

The PPC in a Panther isn't the same PPC in an Awesome. They might share stats, but they have different connection sequences, mounting options, etc. Then add in Dropship weapons, varying autocannon ammunitions etc.

Standardization simply does not exist in the BattleTech universe, not on the scale that it exists in modern day militaries. The closest to do /that/ are the Clans with their omnimechs.

[Carl Wrede]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 May 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

I started playing BT when it was still called Battledroids before teh first law suit in 1983.. You expect a link to stuff prior to the internet:). We did everything in books then...

The Mercs yes have all the various odd custom stuff. But for the most part the House units stayed standard. ANy of the books when they talk about custom mechs they are the exception not the rule.

I am sorry but either you are deliberately lying or its been such a long time since you played the TT that you have forgotten the rules.

Gauss Ammo never exploded in the TT, the Gauss Rifle itself did. And yes i actually have been playing the TT since the 80s.

[Satan n stuff]

My point was that any faction is going to be using mostly the same mech types with a lot of ammo being interchangeable between them, a PPC doesn't even use ammo and it's not going to get shot off every battle unless the pilot is incompetent and if they are then they won't survive long enough to rack up the repair bill. The part about BT being a logistical nightmare is probably true, but really any war is.

[Satan n stuff]

Thread Derailment Lance: kicking you when you're down.

[John Clavell]

RealSoladrin, on 27 May 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

I was just wondering, of the currently available mechs, which one would be the fastest one capable of mounting one of these weapons? I love Gauss weaponry so with the lack of a Hollander I'm wondering how I should I go about putting one of these things in.

Until we play, I guess it's hard to say for certain in all cases. However a good few Mechs should be able to mount it. The Dragon and Hunchback, I'd assume, depending on crit slots and tonnage availability. Id have to check the Hunchback screenshots. Obviously the Atlas.

[Weatherman]

Look, it's simple if you watch the Dev's video on mech customization. To start with, some stats:

A/C 20 - 14 tons, 10 criticals, 5 shots/ton ammo

Gauss Rifle - 15 tons, 7 criticals, 8 shots/ton ammo

So the Dragon, Centurion, and Hunchback can all mount a gauss rifle if they can free up enough weight for it. Depending on how quickly we gain access to XL engines will be a factor in mounting gauss rifle on the smaller mechs.

If you guys want something to help you with customization before MWO is released, go here:

http://www.pryderock...dl_mech.php#BGS

this site has a number of mech creator programs used to make mechs for the board game (whose specs seem to be used by the Devs so should apply to MWO). I use The Drawing Board 2.0.23 and find it best as it also includes premade mechs from all the TRO's in folders by TRO date (i.e. 3025, 3050, 3055, etc...) so you can load them up to see where the weapons are placed on the stock model (since you will need to know where the respective hardpoints are as that is the system the Devs are using) and let you play around with some designs before the game starts.

Note: I don't know how many hardpoints will be in each weapon location (the video shows the Hunchback as having 3 ballistic hardpoints in the right torso) so it seems like the bigger the stock weapon as well as the number of weapons mounted in that location determine the available hardpoints.

Edited by Weatherman, 27 May 2012 - 05:51 AM.

[Zakatak]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 May 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

I just hope they move away from teh TT bs and make it so Gauss RIfle ammo DOES NOT EXPLODE... There is no reason that is should since it has no gun powder and no other explosive in it.. A ammo hit to Gauss rifle should just destroy the feed and disable the gun.. nothing else...

It is the capacitor that explodes, not the slugs. Although this also makes zero sense anyway, since all energy weapons should suffer the same problem, as they are charged by capacitors.

[wanderer]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 May 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

I just hope they move away from teh TT bs and make it so Gauss RIfle ammo DOES NOT EXPLODE... There is no reason that is should since it has no gun powder and no other explosive in it.. A ammo hit to Gauss rifle should just destroy the feed and disable the gun.. nothing else...

Gauss Rifle ammo doesn't explode in the tabletop version at all.

The GUN can, as critting it blows the capacitors- but it's much less damage than an ammo bay going off- even reasonably survivable by larger designs, as it does as much damage as a single AC/20 to the location in question. In fact, critting one ammo slot for Gauss weaponry won't restrict you from using the other slots for keeping the gun in play- it merely prevents you from using any shots that were remaining in that slot when it was destroyed.

As for who can use one, the standard Gauss rifle is 7 crit spaces, 15 tons, ballistic type. That means right now, the Centurion, Hunchback, and Atlas all have a large enough ballistic hardpoint to mount one. IIRC, some Cataphract variants pack an AC/10, which means they could also refit with a Gauss. Rule of thumb: If it can carry a standard AC/10 or AC/20, it'll fit a Gauss Rifle if you have enough free tonnage. LB-10X slots are one crit too small by themselves, UAC/5 two slots too small.

And the Gauss rifle never had explosive ammo, though the original writeup (in the 1989 TRO:2750) gave it ten shots per ton, not the eight it's had since.

[wanderer]

Zakatak, on 27 May 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

It is the capacitor that explodes, not the slugs. Although this also makes zero sense anyway, since all energy weapons should suffer the same problem, as they are charged by capacitors.

A few actually do, though Gauss Rifles are notorious about it for being extreme power hogs. PPC's under some optional rules in the TT can cut their inhibitors and overcharge their guns to allow proper firing at close ranges, though this usually burns out the gun and damages the section in the process. You can also add a capacitor bank that allows you to hold a bigger PPC charge and up the damage as well-but will disable the PPC if hit from feedback damage. And Clan heavy lasers add their extra punch through a flaw that does cause them to go "boom" if criticaled.

[Lightdragon]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 May 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

I just hope they move away from teh TT bs and make it so Gauss RIfle ammo DOES NOT EXPLODE... There is no reason that is should since it has no gun powder and no other explosive in it.. A ammo hit to Gauss rifle should just destroy the feed and disable the gun.. nothing else...

its not the ammo going pop... its the massive magnetic coils with energy built up in them that go boom

[Gunda Din]

Kanatta Jing, on 27 May 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

Also the Hunchback, it's about as fast as the Centurion.

But the actual and true fastest mech that can carry the Gauss is the Cicada CDA-3M, Removing all other weapon and all but 1.5 tons of armor you can have a top speed of 129 KpH.

The main problem would be that you would only have 8 rounds and only one weapon.

That mech would be on a sucide mission:)

[Krivvan]

You might be able fit a couple on a Catapult K-2 considering it has 2 machine guns in what I think are the torsos.

Edited by Krivvan, 27 May 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[CaveMan]

I worked out the impact energy of a Gauss rifle the other day (based on lore descriptions), and it's somewhere in the same range as a 500lb aircraft bomb going off.

So when a Gauss slug hits the ground next to you in MWO it should look like this...