443 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Thirdstar, on 19 February 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

That pretty much what's been happening for *checks* 17 pages.

18

I still say that machine guns need to be brought up to 1dps before they actualy become usefull.

This makes two Ravens, a Spider, a Cicada and a Dragon more viable, as well as gives you fitting options on about 5 other mechs that don't exist now.

Adding crit chance STILL won't make them worth mounting, you have to be able to remove the armor first, which you aren't doing from .4 DPS.

..not to mention, its not like you can boat them, the most any mech can mount is 4.

Edited by Yokaiko, 19 February 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 February 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

LOL. People are still arguing in circles, bringnig up points and counter-points that have been rehased thousand of times.

My only hope is that this thread is as succesful as Vassago's Repair & Rearm thread.

You want Machine guns removed from the game







Sorry. couldn't resist!

0.8 damage DpS, 0.5 cool down. That's 20 bursts per turn for up to 16 damage per turn. Keep the burst of bullets on the target like a laser, 0 Heat. That is more than fair for a 0.5 ton weapon.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 February 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Yokaiko, on 19 February 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

18

I know someone that would love this thread :



1 argument for the MG being a viable anti-mech weapon
2 arguments for the MG being a viable anti-mech weapon. hahaha *lightning, thunder* hahaha

1 page of arguing in circles ...
2 pages of arguing in circles ...
3 pages of arguing in circles ... hahaha *lightning, thunder* hahaha


---

If I were a careful man...
Boost MG DPS to 0.8
Raise the MG damage to internal structure by factor of 2. (That means 1.6 DPS when firing at unarmored section. Real damage, not just damage against components)
Raise the MGs normal range to 120m and its maximum range to 360m. (So at 240m, it would deal its current DPS.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 19 February 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[lsp]

You're all mistaking the machine guns in mechwarrior to be something like a hand held weapon, or a crew served weapon on a tank. The reality is, the machine guns on mechs would more then likely be 20mm or larger, still slaughter organic targets, but also melt through armored ones. It makes no sense otherwise, why would a giant killing machine carry such small munitions. The cannon on the a-10 is a good comparison, in my opinion it's much more plausible.

Edited by lsp, 19 February 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[Yokaiko]

lsp, on 19 February 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

You're all mistaking the machine guns in mechwarrior to be something like a hand held weapon, or a crew served weapon on a tank. The reality is, the machine guns on mechs would more then likely be 20mm or larger, still slaughter organic targets, but also melt through armored ones. It makes no sense otherwise.

Half of a metric ton (remember everything is metric in this game) is 1102 pounds.

I SHOULD hurt, just a little, particularly when the gun on a CWIS weighs less than 30,000 pounds, ever see what those things do to a ship? I have, lets just say I never want one used on my ship.

[Thirdstar]

I figure MGs have been forgotten on the balance spectrum.

'Crit seeking' is the bone they're throwing to the community. It sounds impressive, but does nothing.

[Yokaiko]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 February 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

I know someone that would love this thread :



1 argument for the MG being a viable anti-mech weapon
2 arguments for the MG being a viable anti-mech weapon. hahaha *lightning, thunder* hahaha

1 page of arguing in circles ...
2 pages of arguing in circles ...
3 pages of arguing in circles ... hahaha *lightning, thunder* hahaha


---

If I were a careful man...
Boost MG DPS to 0.8
Raise the MG damage to internal structure by factor of 2. (That means 1.6 DPS when firing at unarmored section. Real damage, not just damage against components)
Raise the MGs normal range to 120m and its maximum range to 360m. (So at 240m, it would deal its current DPS.)

Still borderline not worth it.

A ton of ammo does 240 points to you (Don't remember exactly), that is what 150 seconds of uptime with 2 guns at 90m?

Granted there is no heat, but still little return on the investment in weight OR risk that the ammo gets hit.

[Joseph Mallan]

ISP the Machine gun of the Battletech universe does not melt 'off armor'. It removes small amounts, like sand blasting. machine guns were never a "threatening weapon" in the Battletech Canon when it came to Mechs, until you reached the death by 1000 paper cut level of boating. A Piranha has 12 machine guns. One dozen guns to do the same level of damage as two LB-X20(average damage per LB-X is 12 TT) or 2 SSRM6s. you gotta have a lot of MGs to do any real damage.

[Mykaelous Wolf]

Machine guns have been apart of the Mechwarrior flavor for a long time. Hell as a kid watching the MW2 intro I've always wanted MG's that would blow apart the armor of a Summoner with as much flash as is seen in the vid. All they have to do is increase damage/ decrease ammo. Right now its at 1k, I believe in TT you received 200/ton. Their damage should be in line with AC 2's. If needed they could increase spray to disperse damage. Just look at that K2 to the left of your screen and see how large those "mg's" are. They should put out some hurt.

[KuruptU4Fun]

[Havyek]

I used to be on the bandwagon of just removing MGuns and Flamers from the game. They're both designed to be anti-infantry.

Then I started to level up Spiders, and after driving the SPD 5K (with 4 ballistic slots) I've decided that either the MGuns/Flamers need to be viable, or the chassis that are designed around them need to be removed/reworked.

The MG should have the same DPS as a SLAS, OR even bumped to damage between the MLAS and SLAS. I'd even be ok eith PGI slowing the firing rate down and increase the DPS, so that keeping damage on target is more difficult, but the bullets hit harder.

[Joseph Mallan]

You know, all I could think when I watched that intro was, "What a moron! Why isn't he using his PPCs again?" Those MGs were't doing any real damage and it took a through armor crit to actually hurt the Summoner.

[Daiichidoku]

who cares if we have MGs in the game that do nothing?

if PGI allowed you roll down your cockpit window and spit at your enemy for no damage, why would you want it removed or buffed?

let those who want to waste space and make noise with MGs do so, they DONT have to be effective, they DONT have to be removed



makes as much sense to have cockpit dressup items removed cuz they are not "effective", or have them arbitrarily made to cause damage, cuz anything else will upset the sensibilities of a few over-sensitive "passionate" types

[Thirdstar]

Mykaelous Wolf, on 19 February 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Just look at that K2 to the left of your screen and see how large those "mg's" are.

Those aren't MGs, those are Gauss rifles

BDU Havoc, on 19 February 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Then I started to level up Spiders, and after driving the SPD 5K (with 4 ballistic slots) I've decided that either the MGuns/Flamers need to be viable, or the chassis that are designed around them need to be removed/reworked.

And that's essentially the core of the issue. Those ballistic heavy lights are the source of all the rage.

[Yokaiko]

Daiichidoku, on 19 February 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

who cares if we have MGs in the game that do nothing?

In my case I see a need for a light ballistic weapon that weighs less than 6 tons and actually does something.

...it would make a number a chassis either viable, and a number of others not just cookie cutters.

[Havyek]

Daiichidoku, on 19 February 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

who cares if we have MGs in the game that do nothing?

if PGI allowed you roll down your cockpit window and spit at your enemy for no damage, why would you want it removed or buffed?

let those who want to waste space and make noise with MGs do so, they DONT have to be effective, they DONT have to be removed



makes as much sense to have cockpit dressup items removed cuz they are not "effective", or have them arbitrarily made to cause damage, cuz anything else will upset the sensibilities of a few over-sensitive "passionate" types

Because right now we have certain 'Mechs that basically DEPEND on MGs. The Spider 5K comes with 1 energy hardpoint in its CT and 4 ballistic slots.

When I ran mine, I stripped all the armour off of its arms and put a LPLAS in the CT, because MPLAS and 4 MGs was worthless, because the MGs were worthless.

Saying "Leave them alone, just don't use them" is fine, but then certain 'Mechs that pretty much are designed around their use either need to have some other use added to them (ECM?), more hardpoints added for missiles and/or energy weapons, or don't add them to the game.

[MustrumRidcully]

Yokaiko, on 19 February 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Still borderline not worth it.

A ton of ammo does 240 points to you (Don't remember exactly), that is what 150 seconds of uptime with 2 guns at 90m?

Granted there is no heat, but still little return on the investment in weight OR risk that the ammo gets hit.

It's conservative, I will admit that. But we have to consider how the MG scales with numbers. If you only need to add about 1 ton for every 2 MGs to sustain your firepower long enough, then it might scale too well. The no heat factor is important here. For every other weapon, you will eventually need to spend several tons on heat sinks to be able to run the weapon effectively. MGs don't have this problem.

(Assuming it has Double Heat Sinks, but engine only)
With 4 MGs and 2 Medium lasers, a Cicada or Spider(Spider doesn't even have 2 energy slots) would have 5.7 DPS for the weight of about 6 tons (2 tons of ammo included) and never overheat.
With 6 Medium Lasers, a Jenner or Cicada would have 7.5 DPS for the weight of about 6 tons, but overheat in about 12 seconds.
With 5 Medium Lasers, a Jenner or Cicada would have 6.25 DPS for the weight of about 5 tons, but overheat in about 16 seconds.
With 6 Small Lasers , a Cicada or Jenner would have 5 DPS for the weight of 3 tons, but overheat in about 48 seconds.
So I think this is a reasonable range.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 19 February 2013 - 05:39 AM.

[Daiichidoku]

Yokaiko, on 19 February 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

In my case I see a need for a light ballistic weapon that weighs less than 6 tons and actually does something.

...it would make a number a chassis either viable, and a number of others not just cookie cutters.

need? are you desperate or something?



what if PGI never included MGs, as they were in TT for "infantry"? would you hue and cry that you dont have useless MGs in game, and that PGI should not only include them, but make them powerful?

maybe TAG should cause damage too, its not very effective, and was never meant to directly damage mechs

also, how will it not be cookie cutter when you have MGs also? you will be the only one to somehow do a unique install of MGs?

[KuruptU4Fun]

BDU Havoc, on 19 February 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Because right now we have certain 'Mechs that basically DEPEND on MGs. The Spider 5K comes with 1 energy hardpoint in its CT and 4 ballistic slots.

When I ran mine, I stripped all the armour off of its arms and put a LPLAS in the CT, because MPLAS and 4 MGs was worthless, because the MGs were worthless.

Saying "Leave them alone, just don't use them" is fine, but then certain 'Mechs that pretty much are designed around their use either need to have some other use added to them (ECM?), more hardpoints added for missiles and/or energy weapons, or don't add them to the game.

At this point I'm going to submit and just say fix the damn thing and the flamer. But the other side of that coin is that no one should expect that a 4 MG mech will ever chew thru armor like that Beggin' Strips dog commercial. Those builds are designed to kill steal, period.

[Daiichidoku]

BDU Havoc, on 19 February 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Because right now we have certain 'Mechs that basically DEPEND on MGs. The Spider 5K comes with 1 energy hardpoint in its CT and 4 ballistic slots.

where is the rule that a mech must utilize all of its hardpoints to be effective or worthwhile?

KuruptU4Fun, on 19 February 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

the flamer.

flamer is broken?

geez, you shoulda been here last summer LMAO