166 replies to this topic

[Davion5150]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

How? Devs sayin the playerbase is growing hasn't changed the people saying it's dying. Saying ECM is less prevelant (AND PROVIDING NUMBERS) has not stopped the anti-ecm crowd AT ALL. Do you honestly think that showing a team had a premade is going to change any of the perceptions?

The reasonable people are the ones who KNOW the premades are more likely to win and KNOW they aren't in every game. They don't need a marker telling them what they already know.

Marking every bad player with a <1 KDR or in a trial mech is just as useful as marking every team in terms of why team A beat team B.

I mean, if it's about perceptions. I want to see how many absolutely awful people are in the game. And then I want to compare them to this thread.

The players can't validate whether the devs are telling the truth regarding playerbase numbers or ECM numbers. Thats why there will be doubts. But the devs can't fudge pre-made markers and thats why it would have credibility. If the devs try to fudge things around by intentionally not marking some pre-mades as pre-mades, then someone will notice and call them out.

[RussianWolf]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I don't know of Garth's comment off hand, but my own data (linked to earlier) suggests pre vs pug is heavily weighted towards the pre (somewhere around 75% chance to win).

Chance of pre vs pug (21/39 = 54%)
Chance of your team being the pug (11/19 = 58%)

None of this information has stopped the uninformed from complaining, as it also shows over 40 matches that the team with more ECM only won 50% of the matches and I'm not even going to try and count the ECM threads just from today.

So let me get this straight. You compiled data without any way of verifying your sample.

Did you simply ask if a pre-made was there in chat? I know I tried that in about 30 games one day. I had someone say they were once. Now, did the 29 other games not have a pre-made? And was the one that claimed to be in one really in one? How do I know?

So unless you are an employee of the game, there is no way to my knowledge for your data to be gathered in any kind of verifiable way. Even for yourself.

I think this needs to be done up front. It doesn't even need to show WHO is on a premade, just a number above each team for the number of players that dropped as a multiple. I want to see if the Solos DC as has been stated. This would tell the devs that there really is a problem. If the number of Solos that are DCing is great enough then they will address it. If the number is small, they may not. But it would give them the data they need to know if a problem exists.

One other reason I'd like to see this is when I lose (and it happens often enough), I'd like to know if I should give big props to a group of Solos that played well together, or if it was an easy mode team slumming it.

The teams were given a place where Solos can't go by definition. Now they refuse to play there because they couldn't hack it.

[hammerreborn]

Davion5150, on 06 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

The players can't validate whether the devs are telling the truth regarding playerbase numbers or ECM numbers. Thats why there will be doubts. But the devs can't fudge pre-made markers and thats why it would have credibility. If the devs try to fudge things around by intentionally not marking some pre-mades as pre-mades, then someone will notice and call them out.

You can easily validate ECM numbers. There are 5 mechs that can run it. Especially with the new end of round screen it's now mindnumbingly simple to see how many people are running ECM mechs.

[Serapth]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Let's face it and be honest, you all just want a stigma attached to premades to make them feel bad about playing with friends in a team game. You know who else liked marking people to identify them?

Wow, you went there. Trying to take idiocy to new and epic levels?

[mekabuser]

it really does.. as a pug, i need to know if it was pugs , or not.. IDC if it doesnt even show it at outset, I want to know one way or the other.. The endscreen is fine.

[John Johnson]

The problem is that the current matchmaker is complete ****. You get total newbies vs veterans back from mechwarrior 2, and if this isn't quickly addressed the novelty will quickly wear off and new players will move on to something that doesn't suck. Will a small group of dedicated fans be enough to support this game? I have my doubts.

With this current garbage matchmaker, I would support marking premade groups. Its frustrating as **** to get steamrolled, and its also frustrating as **** to steamroll the other team. It might as well just be the 4 man veteran elite group, why are 4 newbies (including me) even in the game? It would be nice to know at least who ended the match in 3 minutes, a random veteran or a group of them.

Everything depends on the matchmaker. In Starcraft 2, arranged teams are pitted against random teams as well and are unmarked. However, the arranged team has its own skill level, so you don't get master league players vs newbies. I play in an arranged team vs randoms, we're average, nobody really cares because we play against players of similar skills.

Honestly I don't know why a proper matchmaker had a lower priority than mech colors, but hopefully it will do its job. I want to play with and against people of similar level, not mechwarrior gods who enjoy punching newbs. If the matchmaker fails, then I'll fail to be impressed, and this game will fail to hold my attention. This isn't the only multiplayer game out there; the Starcraft 2 expansion comes out in March. I may suck at games, but at least in SC2 I play with other people who suck.

[hammerreborn]

John Johnson, on 06 February 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

The problem is that the current matchmaker is complete ****. You get total newbies vs veterans back from mechwarrior 2, and if this isn't quickly addressed the novelty will quickly wear off and new players will move on to something that doesn't suck. Will a small group of dedicated fans be enough to support this game? I have my doubts.

With this current garbage matchmaker, I would support marking premade groups. Its frustrating as **** to get steamrolled, and its also frustrating as **** to steamroll the other team. It might as well just be the 4 man veteran elite group, why are 4 newbies (including me) even in the game? It would be nice to know at least who ended the match in 3 minutes, a random veteran or a group of them.

Everything depends on the matchmaker. In Starcraft 2, arranged teams are pitted against random teams as well and are unmarked. However, the arranged team has its own skill level, so you don't get master league players vs newbies. I play in an arranged team vs randoms, we're average, nobody really cares because we play against players of similar skills.

Honestly I don't know why a proper matchmaker had a lower priority than mech colors, but hopefully it will do its job. I want to play with and against people of similar level, not mechwarrior gods who enjoy punching newbs. If the matchmaker fails, then I'll fail to be impressed, and this game will fail to hold my attention. This isn't the only multiplayer game out there; the Starcraft 2 expansion comes out in March. I may suck at games, but at least in SC2 I play with other people who suck.

So you want ELO matchmaking which is being implemented shortly.

[Hillslam]

Transparency is better than obfuscation.

Real data is always valuable.

Arguing over facts is better than arguing over assumptions.

Data collected by anecdotal - aka by asking people in chat - is completely unreliable and is no basis for analysis or drawing conclusions.

[Serapth]

Ironbar Sinister, on 06 February 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

This is not important.

We cannot control who we do or do not drop against. Knowing if I just had a match with a 4-man group or 4 PUGs will not change my next or any subsequent matches.

PGI might be keeping data on groups, but that's their business.

Premade eh?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

For reference, any mention of separate queue's or whatever I make is just one way to fix things. I'm not advocating it as the only way to deal with the Pre-made vs PUG issue if it were to come to light that there were a lot more Pre-mades than is being portrayed.

Secondly, I don't know about you but I've played a lot of games with ELO and other styles of match making...that stuff is very hard to implement. Especially with the HUGE amount of factors going on in MWO.

I do not really trust it to be implemented properly. Here is the thing...what is it based on?

Damage done?
Damage taken?
Kills?
Assists?
Spotting?
Captures?
Component destruction?
Kill vs Death Ratios?
Accuracy?

Does it account for which mech you are in? If I pilot an Atlas 9 out of 10 games and have a really great ELO with it, and decide to buy a hunchback which it turns out I suck with, does my ELO follow me?

Does it account for trial mechs?

I'm guessing it won't assign based on low-end/high-end class spectrums. So is someone with an ELO of 1000 in an Awesome and someone with an ELO of 1000 in an Atlas equal?

And ELO doesn't factor into whether you are on voice with someone. What if the ELO's match up, but one is a pre-made on TS and the other isn't on TS and is a full pug?

Dear god it hurts my brain.

[endeceive]

I'd like it just so I can know a little more about the match I just fought. Currently, I'm left with the impression that my team just got stomped by a much more coordinated force. Were they a pre-made? Would be nice to know.

Also it's a fantastic feeling to eke out a hard-fought victory and realize that your pugs beat a premade lance, maybe because of how much effort you put into rallying and coordinating your herd of cats.

Right now, all we have is guesswork, and the lack of clarity just fuels everyone's speculation.

hammerreborn, is all of your data based on asking in chat if there are any premades? Do you have any other method to verify the responses? Seems like they may not want to self-identify, or they may not even be paying attention to game chat at that moment.

I just want to be able to make a conclusion for myself and right now I have almost no hard data to base that on.

[Hillslam]

So from the feedback I've read we have a whole bunch of everybody saying yes it'd be nice to add this feature and one guy arguing really hard not to....

[JSparrowist]

Thirdstar, on 06 February 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Garth said and I paraphrase a bit "If you PUG for a while you will run back to the TS servers". It was a call to walk a mile in the other side's shoes.

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I don't know of Garth's comment off hand...

Garth Erlam said:

The ELO in matchmaking phase 3 should help with to start - everyone being matched against similar skilled opponents will be a good start. Also, we'll keep adding to it as time goes on and we see what needs to be done/changed/added/etc. Also, while I do agree with you it's very sad when larger corps/clans will run 4 mans to intentionally beat up on newer players. It sucks, but maybe the fact we can see them doing it will change their mind, I dunno. People often talk a big game and then realise what it entails, and well...

On the other hand though, virtually every post about a 'loss' here claims it was against a premade - but when I check the logs, I find it wasn't (and if it was, it was a pair or friends or something.)

To sum though, I challenge those who do drop in 4mans to try solo dropping for awhile. See how the other side lives. Yes you'll RUN back to TS3 when you're done, sure, but I hope you also see why they complain about it. Being in a 4man doesn't guarantee a win, just like being a lone wolf doesn't guarantee you'll lose. However, a 4man guarantees that team DOES NOT have four new players, and makes it more likely the opposing teams will.

So if nothing else, maybe invite a new player into your 4man and show him the ropes. Keep rotating people through every week. I understand the vast majority of 4man groups are just doing it to play with their friends, but I think you also know, if in the back of your mind, you have an unfair advantage. So help the newbies out and show them the ropes.

There needs to be a premade on both sides or none at all. I have screenshot after screenshot of entire teams filled with founders and pugs on the other side..who got rolled, hard...

You PUG stompers should feel bad, because you are bad.

Edited by JSparrowist, 06 February 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[TB Freelancer]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Because I know with all the vitrol premades get on the forums already we are just looking forward to getting it in game as well.

Oh please. In MW4 I always wore my TB tags and never once felt a need to smurf, every forum I logged into I did sporting TB in front of my name or a TB sig, every server I dropped in I had TB tags on....and that hasn't changed today either. Hell most of the guys have TB attached to their names.

The only people who 'smurfed' back in the day were wannabe clans who liked going to noob friendly servers to stomp easy prey. I can't think of a single one that survived the slow years either.

In my experience the only guys who want anonymity are the ones who aren't conducting themselves with any kind of decency or integrity. They need to hide so their actions can't catch up with them.

I've got no problems with anyone knowing I'm a Team Banzai member here on the forums or in game. Then again, I've never done anything that would give me a reason to hide. I conduct myself like a man.

[XX Sulla XX]

I would be nice to show teams etc in game or after. I would never drop out of a game just because there was a premade on the other side. Any way I really think it would just be more fun. Also might be interesting seeing number of games played for each player and other info.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

JSparrowist, on 06 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

There needs to be a premade on both sides or none at all. I have screenshot after screenshot of entire teams filled with founders and pugs on the other side..who got rolled, hard...

You PUG stompers should feel bad, because you are bad.

Confirming that founders tags indicate premedes. (I never run a 2 man group with my non founder friend like EVERY SINGLE DAY)


P.S. I also never end up on the same team as another founder when pugging.

Edited by Astroniomix, 06 February 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[mekabuser]

Ironbar Sinister, on 06 February 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

This is not important.

We cannot control who we do or do not drop against. Knowing if I just had a match with a 4-man group or 4 PUGs will not change my next or any subsequent matches.

thats fine.. the data though would enable me to put the match in perspective..
\Was i on a pre? maybe thats why we won. \
was it pure pug.. ?
Oh we beat a pre?

OH, no wonder they were on our side of cauldron in one minute and had every cheese op build known to man including ASSaults with max firepower and speed with no armor because these guys love to roll pugs... let me note their names to watch out for in the future..

unless you 100percent pug, pres almost have no say in this debate.. why? because no matter how rare, premades do exist with the sole intention of pugstomping , and we as pugs are the ones who have to deal with them.

besides, Id like to KNOW just how well the matchmaker distributes premades of all types in the pug pool..

[x Marder x]

Just take two 4 man premades and put them in 8 man premade fights. problem solved.
Pugs are free and ROFL around happy
8 mans are happy because they have something new to shoot.
4 man ROFL stomper can taste there own medicine.

[Hillslam]

Here's a thread where they're talking about showing it beforehand or during the match. Also good observations there. But while I continue to beleive more data is valuable exposed to the player base, showing it pre-match runs risk of drops.

....however that may push the matchmaking fixes up in priority.

http://mwomercs.com/...-teams-visible/

[zraven7]

Oh, for the love of Pete, this stupid thread again...

The entire enemy team is ALWAYS an 8 man or 2 4-man synched. Play like that. It's always an organized team, and they will MURDER you if you don't play your absolute best.

There.

Now, the people who step up to a challenge will, and the people who need an excuse for why they played poorly will have one.

Done.