233 replies to this topic

[Larkis]

Hello Devs,

actuall there is a huge problem with SSRM2 which destroy every Light-Gameplay.

I'm a Jenner pilot. I pilot it since i get in the founder closed beta. a play it a long long time and i love it. But actuall there is a huge problem which destory every Light-Gameplay.

Let me explain the problems.

1. Aiming
In MWO there are 2 Crosshairs, one for arms and one for the torso. You could put Weapons in both but firing there together needs a little bit skill. if you are a light you mostly must only care about the arm weapons, cause the torso is to slow to turn. But the SSRM2 use the same Arm crosshair. I played a most time against SSRM2 boats and i still played sometimes as a SSRM2 Commando. its still true. I made some pictures to explain:

http://www.apload.de...19490bpr2pl.png

This is a typical situation in a cycle of Death of 2 Light mechs. In most of this cylces you only can use the arm weapons cause of the limits of the torso movement you cant turn it around fast enough. You see on the picture, the arm crosshair is on the side, maybe 90° whly the torso is still looking forward. But you only need the arm Crosshair to still lockon the Torso weapons.

With every other weapon i must snycron the two croshairs to fire all weapons. But not with SSRM2. Thats the first unbalanced problem.

2. Missile Movement
The second problem is the Misile Movement. Missiles are a weapon based on hard ammunition. There are Launchers in the Arms and Torso which are firing the rockets. The launches are fixed and cannot move. Lets loock back to the situation in the cycle of death.

http://www.apload.de...19491bxntgh.png

Again we see the commando. The position of the enemy mech is marked with the blue cycle. You also can see the fixed rocketlaunchers. The pink lines show the points where the weapons target. The arm launcher easily can hit me, no problem with this. Lock on the Torso weapon. This launcher is aiming a lot away from me. And Rockets are weapons with a Main thruster and smal control-plaetes on there back side. Yes they are able to turn, but cause of the speed of the trhsuter and the small plates, they only can turn in a curve. But actually, (you see it on the graphics as a red line, the rockets will leave the launcher turn in 90° angle at this positions and then fire the maintrust and hit. So the rockets make a move which is really impossible to do.
In reality a misxile starts, must fly a few seconds to build up speed and only then the missle can change direction. But in MWo the missile starts, change direction and than fire the main trhuster. I know MWo is not Reality but i never read that there are magic missiles wich ignore every law of physic.

3. Missile Movement and Modules


With 1 and 2 it's very hard to avoid the SSRM2 from another light. But sometimes i get the chance to move out of the range of the armcrosshair. And for this, we got 2 Modules:

First:
360 Target. - You are able to tracking Enemys behind you.

Second:
Target Decay - Still Lock on a Target which is out of your range for a few seconds.

So with both modules you are able to target the enemy light even if he is out of target range and behind you.

And know this happens:
http://www.apload.de...19492bwj5zl.png

The armlauncher do the magic thing i explained in missile movement. But the torso launcher is really a great hudini. First the rocket makes a turnaround. And then they fly Trough the Torso to hit the enemy behind the light.


And what that means for the fight?

Lets say im a Jenner. I have 3 Medium Pulse Laser and i full with Double heatsinks. I make with an Alpha 18 Damage. The Raven-L for Example make 15 Damage with the SSRM2. The SSRM2 reloads faster than the MPL. So i must hit with every target the center Torso of the Raven with an alpha only to have a little chance against the raven. In this time the raven must only lock on the enemy one time, hold them in lock and hold the finger brainafk on the weaponbutton. After a few alphas the jenner lost the damagerace cause of overheating. The Raven never overheat with the SSRm2. The Jenner does. But ther Raven not only have SSRM2. They also have Lasers ect. So there is no way to win against a Raven-L. They have the armor like a jenner, they have the same Speed but have much more weapons and not so much problems to fight with it. You need no skill and no heat managment to get the kills.

So actuall as a Light you MUST use SSRM2 to have a chance. Without SSRM2 you are a freekill for every other light. And here is anopther problem, SSRM2 Commando/Raven with ECM. Very nice, the only weapon which is a danger for the SSRm2-Ligh can be countered easily only install a ECM.

So there are only 2 Light mechs actual which are usable. Raven-L and Commander 2D. Every other Light is a freekill for this mechs. And i see the problem only on the SSRm2 and the buggy movement. So please fix this.

[Zylo]

Jenners had it too good as the dominant light mech until the introduction of ECM. I don't mind seeing them getting the **** beaten out of them by ECM+SSRM2 lights.

It's a minor balance problem compared to the much larger balance problem that was introduced when collisions were removed. Enemy lights deserve to be tripped and focus fired by the entire team when they get careless. Under the current system they just run around knowing they can't ever be knocked down which removes the speed advantage when they get knocked down and are not moving.

When collision knockdowns return I might support some changes to SSRM2's but for now I just enjoy watching Ravens and Commandos pick apart Jenners. For some reason it just makes me happy watching that since the Jenner was too strong for too long.

[Gaan Cathal]

Being a petty **** isn't the best standpoint for balancing though


SSRM need limiting quite sharply at this point, being the best AND easiest to use (by far) anti-light weapon in the game. Lazymode shouldn't be bestmode. The ECM-streak combo has been fixed a little with the return of D-F weapons, but the SSRMs themselves are still screwy.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 07 February 2013 - 12:43 AM.

[Larkis]

Indeed we need kolissions back.

But that is not a major problem. Every Light with a little bit Skill never get in a position for a collision cause there know about the problems. its the same with overheating. Every Light with skill kows that overheating will kill him. So he take care that he never overheat. Same with colissions.

But that is not a thread over colisions.

[Zylo]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Being a petty **** isn't the best standpoint for balancing though


SSRM need limiting quite sharply at this point, being the best AND easiest to use (by far) anti-light weapon in the game. Lazymode shouldn't be bestmode. The ECM-streak combo has been fixed a little with the return of D-F weapons, but the SSRMs themselves are still screwy.

Streaks were not commonly used before the removal of collision knockdowns. Knocking down a lagging enemy light was the best way to kill it in closed beta. Very few pilots seemed to bother running with streaks and once lights could no longer be knocked down, mechs like the Catapult A1 Streakcat became popular to deal with the lag shielded light mechs that could no longer be knocked down.

Returning knockdowns will reduce the need for streaks against other light mechs and might encourage a return to the closed beta style of having 1 light tackle an enemy light while other mechs focus fire on the knocked down enemy light to kill it before it can stand back up.

Larkis, on 07 February 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

Indeed we need kolissions back.

But that is not a major problem. Every Light with a little bit Skill never get in a position for a collision cause there know about the problems. its the same with overheating. Every Light with skill kows that overheating will kill him. So he take care that he never overheat. Same with colissions.

But that is not a thread over colisions.

Collision knockdowns are still very much a part of this problem as their removal is what pushed other players to run SSRM2 based designs. This makes the SSRM2 a far more common weapon which greatly increases the effects of the issues you describe which should probably be fixed at some point... AFTER collision knockdowns are returned of course.

[One Medic Army]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Streaks were not commonly used before the removal of collision knockdowns. Knocking down a lagging enemy light was the best way to kill it in closed beta. Very few pilots seemed to bother running with streaks and once lights could no longer be knocked down, mechs like the Catapult A1 Streakcat became popular to deal with the lag shielded light mechs that could no longer be knocked down.

Returning knockdowns will reduce the need for streaks against other light mechs and might encourage a return to the closed beta style of having 1 light tackle an enemy light while other mechs focus fire on the knocked down enemy light to kill it before it can stand back up.

That was also before they hit 100% and had their damage *fixed* (I.E. fixed to do proper damage, rather than the reduced damage they'd been doing prior).
Safe to say that they've been significantly buffed since collisions were removed.
The 100% hit thing is the big one, prior to that you'd need to lead light mechs to hit them with streaks.

[Larkis]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Streaks were not commonly used before the removal of collision knockdowns. Knocking down a lagging enemy light was the best way to kill it in closed beta. Very few pilots seemed to bother running with streaks and once lights could no longer be knocked down, mechs like the Catapult A1 Streakcat became popular to deal with the lag shielded light mechs that could no longer be knocked down.

Returning knockdowns will reduce the need for streaks against other light mechs and might encourage a return to the closed beta style of having 1 light tackle an enemy light while other mechs focus fire on the knocked down enemy light to kill it before it can stand back up.

Why should tackling remove the over powered SSRm2?

And Collisions was a tactic born out of the poverty cause of the lagshield the weapons dont hit.

[p4r4g0n]

Collision damage will return but are you certain knockdowns will?

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Streaks were not commonly used before the removal of collision knockdowns. Knocking down a lagging enemy light was the best way to kill it in closed beta. Very few pilots seemed to bother running with streaks and once lights could no longer be knocked down, mechs like the Catapult A1 Streakcat became popular to deal with the lag shielded light mechs that could no longer be knocked down.

Returning knockdowns will reduce the need for streaks against other light mechs and might encourage a return to the closed beta style of having 1 light tackle an enemy light while other mechs focus fire on the knocked down enemy light to kill it before it can stand back up.


Collision knockdowns are still very much a part of this problem as their removal is what pushed other players to run SSRM2 based designs. This makes the SSRM2 a far more common weapon which greatly increases the effects of the issues you describe which should probably be fixed at some point... AFTER collision knockdowns are returned of course.

No, he's talking about light vs. light battles, not heavy vs. lights. Collisions being in or not has no impact on the potency of streaks because one light isn't going to deliberately crash into another in a one on one battle. There would be no point.

Streaks will continue to be by far the most broken and overpowered lights vs. light weapon until PGI steps in and fixes them. But I and many others have been complaining about streaks for months now and nothing has been done yet.

The presence of streaks as they are now ruins the light versus light gameplay in Mechwarrior. Anyone with half a brain can see that. Streaks are the worst thing about this entire game.

.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 07 February 2013 - 01:02 AM.

[Zylo]

Larkis, on 07 February 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Why should tackling remove the over powered SSRm2?

And Collisions was a tactic born out of the poverty cause of the lagshield the weapons dont hit.

Simple, you want as much burst damage as possible. SRM4 or SRM6 would fill this role better for burst damage against a tackled light mech.

Like it or not, having a friendly light tackle an enemy light was probably the fastest way to kill them as the entire team had a way of seeing that light mech fall down... at that point EVERYONE wanted the kill.

[Gaan Cathal]

I'm not disagrweing that collisions need to be reimplemented (in a fixed version) but that doesn't change the fact that a medium laser that doesn't require aiming, can't miss and has a 360 degree fire arc is an incredibly bad design decision. Streak-using lights aren't unkillable god machines, don't get me wrong, but they are a serious valance concern due to the ridiculous firepower-to-difficulty ratio. If you currently put anything else in a light mech missile hardpoint you're gimping it unless you have ECM, and even then it's a gamble.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

I think they should reduce the speed of SSRMs to give AMS more time to shoot them down. (reducing the godmode turning ability couldn't hurt too)

[Larkis]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Simple, you want as much burst damage as possible. SRM4 or SRM6 would fill this role better for burst damage against a tackled light mech.

Like it or not, having a friendly light tackle an enemy light was probably the fastest way to kill them as the entire team had a way of seeing that light mech fall down... at that point EVERYONE wanted the kill.

I talking about Light vs Light Situations. In these there would not be collisions cause when they collide they lie both and cant fire. SSRm2 are in Light vs Light the best methode cause its op.

Edited by Larkis, 07 February 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[One Medic Army]

I run 2x SRM4 in my Jenner, precisely because the only way I can kill Raven-3Ls is to punch them in the face with as many SRMs as possible, followed by running behind a building to break LoS and using Jumps to make quick turns. Raven automatically wins any circling fight, and will win if I run straight away as well.

[Larkis]

Astroniomix, on 07 February 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

I think they should reduce the speed of SSRMs to give AMS more time to shoot them down. (reducing the godmode turning ability couldn't hurt too)

A maybe good idea would be to place the lockon on the Torsoheadcross. So they cant moving so fast and other lights are able to avoid the SSRM2. Shoukld not effect on SSRm2 vs Medium ect. Cause these mechs are slow enough to target them with the torsocrosshair.

[Zylo]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 07 February 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

No, he's talking about light vs. light battles, not heavy vs. lights. Collisions being in or not has no effect on the potency of streaks because one lights isn't going to deliberately crash into another in a one on one battle. Streaks will continue to be by far the most broken and overpowered lights vs. light weapon until PGI steps in and fixes them. But I and many others have been complaining about streaks for months now and nothing has been done yet.

The presence of streaks as they are now ruins the light versus light gameplay in Mechwarrior.

Really? When I started playing lights in late closed beta I crashed into LAGGING enemy light pilots all the time. It was far easier to pop them with a burst of damage as both mechs were standing up when the lag lead was 0. I don't think I ever bothered with streaks in closed beta on a light mech. Also lights fighting 1 on 1 within line of sight of friendly snipers did often force a collision to speed things up. That light may give up the kill against the enemy light but they were then free to go chew up the soft back armor of missile boats.

I don't give a **** about the light vs light gameplay since the lack of collisions makes light more powerful than they should be. If you want quality light play, the lights need to be put back down where they should be - easy kills if they are knocked down near enemy mechs. Only then should PGI bother fixing streaks.

Fixing streaks before collision knockdowns are returned will give lights advantages they should not have at all.

Larkis, on 07 February 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

I talking about Light vs Light Situations. In these there would not be collisions cause when they collide they lie both and cant fire. SSRm2 are in Light vs Light the best methode cause its op.

When you stand up you blast the enemy light with everything you have. That's how it worked in closed beta. Streaks didn't have enough burst damage for this to work.

[Mitta]

I absolutely agree with you, the SSTRM's are a no brainer weapon. But I disagree about the disadvantage, I have killed multiple streak lights with my jenner and cicada. Which both have only 6 lasers and no ecm.

They should change it but I think this will never happen. As I can remember this has been like this ever since the beginning of MW. And unlike the reality it seems to be MW reality.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

I don't give a **** about the light vs light gameplay since the lack of collisions makes light more powerful than they should be.

Fixing streaks before collision knockdowns are returned will give lights advantages they should not have at all.

You clearly don't own or pilot lights much. Ignoring the fact that light vs. light gameplay is as valid and central to Mechwarrior as assault vs. assault gameplay, the netcode fix has made lights dramatically more risky to run. They're the only mech that can be easily one-shotted or legged, and most are dieing quickly that way now. I wouldn't say light mechs are overpowered any more. If anything, they are becoming underpowered. Wispsy is running a heavy in every game I see him in now. I wonder why.

[Taurick]

I would be much happier with streaks if the locking crosshair was attached to the right section.

IE I should not be able to lock my torso mounted streaks with my arm crosshairs. I should have to level the torso crosshairs on the target to achieve a lock

[One Medic Army]

I've been running nothing but Jenners the past few days.
If I run into a Raven-3L I'm either dead or heavily damaged.
If I overheat I'm dead or heavily damaged.
If I run into a Com-2D I'm dead or heavily damaged.
If I run into high alpha builds and they hit me, I'm dead or heavily damaged.

Playing a light right now is about avoiding even being shot at, if someone actually hits you you're toast. Thank god for all the terrible shots is all I can say.