233 replies to this topic

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

It's a good thing entire Mechs can make 180 u-turns and phase through each other right now, or that would be absolutely terrible.

To put this thread into perspective, walking into this is like walking into a thread full of Stalker pilots complaining about the AS7-D-DC having ECM and a Ballistic slot. I am simply incredulous.

What people have tried to explain to you several times is that streaks are overpowered in a fight between two light mechs (where one has streaks and the other does not, or one can use its streaks due to ECM while the other cannot) when both pilots are of equal skill. You seem obsessed with the idea that high level Jenner D pilots can defeat Raven 3Ls. This may be true among the best of the best Jenner pilots matching up against non-elite Raven pilots. I am trying to get my aiming skill with SRMs up to the point where this becomes consistently possible.

But for the vast majority of players, they will lost in any battle where their direct fire weapons come up against streaks. Just as a high level Jenner pilot will practice some of the maneuvering you mention, a crafty CRaven 3L pilot will be using all the tricks in his arsenal to ensure his streaks keep hitting while your SRMs don't. The result is that in a duel between two pilots of equal skill, streaks almost always win.

This is especially true in the vast majority of engagements in this game between average, regular, non super competitive players who don't spend 4 hours a day perfecting their SRM aiming and jump jet maneuvering. For all the skill required to use a Jenner or Spider optimally, a Raven 3L or Commando 2D pilot simply has to buy and equip streaks (a low cost, low heat, low skill weapon) and they can easily beat almost any other light in the game. And that is why streaks are still completely broken in this game.

P.S. Let me put it in terms of your assault mech analogy: the Stalker has to aim and consistently hit the same area with his SRMs and Lasers while the Atlas gets an auto-lockon Ac/20 that homes in on the Stalker's center torso out to 270 M. Even when the Atlas is not looking at the Stalker, or is walking away from the Stalker, the Ac/20 still hits every single time for major damage, all the while conserving ammo and generating very little heat .... sound like a fair match? And don't reply "But there's this super elite mythical Atlas pilot out there that can still win most of the time, so the homing Ac/20 is totally fine..."
.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 07 February 2013 - 11:54 PM.

[Orthodontist]

Before ECM Jenner hunting.

Not much has changed except...You see a lot less Jenners nowadays.

[Glythe]

I doubt anyone will read it so deep in this thread but I played the 2D back when there were collisions and no ECM. The max engine build called for 8 heat sinks (can't do that anymore) but it infinitely better now than it was before with ECM, DHS, ES and all the goodies. And while the Jenner gets eaten by streaks+ECM it is still a good mech if you are a good pilot. I was getting 400 damage per game before ECM with the trollmando and I can still do the same now.

There's nothing wrong with the way missiles work in this game from a balance perspective. The balance problem is that you can combine streaks+ECM to kill just about anything that doesn't have both. When you factor in that there are no longer knockdowns there is exactly one problem light mech.... the Raven 3L.

The old streaks only hit the torso (except on certain mechs) and did less damage but did not always hit. Making the new ones always hit (but they can hit anywhere) with higher damage was a nice move as streaks are not supposed to miss.

When lasers actually do ALL the damage they should to lights (last patch helped but still not there yet) we won't need to carry them anymore.

[Gaan Cathal]

Glythe, on 08 February 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

There's nothing wrong with the way missiles work in this game from a balance perspective.

So there would be no balance problem with a .5 ton upgrade for lasers and/or ballistics that made them autotrack instead of needing to be aimed?

[Joseph Mallan]

Gaan Cathal, on 08 February 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

So there would be no balance problem with a .5 ton upgrade for lasers and/or ballistics that made them autotrack instead of needing to be aimed?

Nope there wouldn't, but thats not how they are being implemented, so doesn't matter much.

[Windsaw]

Glythe, on 08 February 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

There's nothing wrong with the way missiles work in this game from a balance perspective. The balance problem is that you can combine streaks+ECM to kill just about anything that doesn't have both. When you factor in that there are no longer knockdowns there is exactly one problem light mech.... the Raven 3L.

The Streak-Commando is almost as good.
There's a bit of a difference but not enough that removing the Raven 3L would remove the problem. It would only shift it.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 February 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Nope there wouldn't, but thats not how they are being implemented, so doesn't matter much.

https://mwtactics.com/

There's an alternative option right there if folks want to remove pilot skill from the equation though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gaan Cathal, on 08 February 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

https://mwtactics.com/

There's an alternative option right there if folks want to remove pilot skill from the equation though.

You asked a question I answered, I also established that it was n't going to happen. Streaks are what they are, A 5 point hit per launcher. Why do aome people hate on such a small weapon. It would be like an assault mech pilot complaining cause AC20s do to much damage. I see streaks miss often cause the target ducked around a corner. They are not omnipotent. I am sorry you didn't like my answer. But if you don't want to hear our replies, don't ask the questions.

Also... how do you know I am not playing that game?

[Disapirro]

SSRM has, imho, made playing lights less fun. As I have said before on other threads, the people defending seem to fall back on the learn to play and it will not be an issue. This is flawed logic if, as is my experience, they don't have issues beating other lights other than the 3L and to a lesser extent the 2D. My experience is I do ok against other lights, but face almost certain death unless I can somehow outrun this one mech, which by the way is usally as fast as me, back to my team.

Of course we will get the obligatory, its not a problem for me so f u, but keep complaining, I think we will get traction on this eventually.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 February 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Streaks are what they are, A 5 point hit per launcher. Why do aome people hate on such a small weapon.

The same reason you hate on ECM? The problem I, and I think most light pilots, have with SSRMs isn't that they're homing missiles, we get that. It's that they are so easy to use that they more or less remove pilot skill from the light vs light equation for a huge bracket of players.

Joseph Mallan, on 08 February 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Also... how do you know I am not playing that game?

Tbh, I assumed you were. How is it?

[Joanna Conners]

Maybe lights shouldn't attack a mech with streaks by themselves?

[Vlad Ward]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 07 February 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

What people have tried to explain to you several times is that streaks are overpowered in a fight between two light mechs (where one has streaks and the other does not, or one can use its streaks due to ECM while the other cannot) when both pilots are of equal skill.

All a Jenner pilot of "equal" skill has to do is hit the Raven pilot with half as many shots as the Raven fires off, considering his Mech has twice the firepower. In reality, it's less than that since the added maneuverability and more compact frame of the Jenner allow the equally skilled Jenner pilot to dodge more of the Raven's lasers.

Streaks are a crutch, plain and simple. You take them when you're incapable of aiming properly, at the cost of 1/2 firepower and bottlenecked maneuverability.

[Disapirro]

Demona, on 08 February 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Maybe lights shouldn't attack a mech with streaks by themselves?

Or maybe we should just nerf the craven 3L

[GioAvanti]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 07 February 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

You clearly don't own or pilot lights much. Ignoring the fact that light vs. light gameplay is as valid and central to Mechwarrior as assault vs. assault gameplay, the netcode fix has made lights dramatically more risky to run. They're the only mech that can be easily one-shotted or legged, and most are dieing quickly that way now. I wouldn't say light mechs are overpowered any more. If anything, they are becoming underpowered. Wispsy is running a heavy in every game I see him in now. I wonder why.

He wasn't a good light pilot....

[Gaan Cathal]

Vlad Ward, on 08 February 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

All a Jenner pilot of "equal" skill has to do is hit the Raven pilot with half as many shots as the Raven fires off, considering his Mech has twice the firepower. In reality, it's less than that since the added maneuverability and more compact frame of the Jenner allow the equally skilled Jenner pilot to dodge more of the Raven's lasers.

Prior to the introduction of ECM and the Streak buff the Jenner was generally touted as the light mech that rendered all others a total joke, so it might not be the best yardstick for balancing. The analogy also has a slight flaw, although the general gist is right, in that the Streaks will torso-home, and SRM4 has spread shortening it's effective range.

Vlad Ward, on 08 February 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Streaks are a crutch, plain and simple. You take them when you're incapable of aiming properly, at the cost of 1/2 firepower and bottlenecked maneuverability.

I agree totally that they're a crutch. They're a crutch and need to be brought in line as a result. You should pay more than .5 tons for the level handholding they provide, or that handholding should be backscaled to be worth .5 tons. A huge nerf isn't necessary, just correcting stupid rear-exhaust launches (not that tracking to behined the fireing mech post-launch needs to go) and forcing re-acquisition of lock would probably suffice.

[Roland]

Vlad Ward, on 08 February 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

All a Jenner pilot of "equal" skill has to do is hit the Raven pilot with half as many shots as the Raven fires off, considering his Mech has twice the firepower.

What build of the Jenner are you thinking has twice the firepower of the raven 3L?

[Vlad Ward]

Roland, on 08 February 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

What build of the Jenner are you thinking has twice the firepower of the raven 3L?

The typical RVN-3L either loads 2ML 2SSRM2 or 3ML 2SSRM2. I see more of the former in competitive play.

A good JR7-D can load 4ML 2SRM4.

Gaan Cathal, on 08 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Prior to the introduction of ECM and the Streak buff the Jenner was generally touted as the light mech that rendered all others a total joke, so it might not be the best yardstick for balancing. The analogy also has a slight flaw, although the general gist is right, in that the Streaks will torso-home, and SRM4 has spread shortening it's effective range.

I agree totally that they're a crutch. They're a crutch and need to be brought in line as a result. You should pay more than .5 tons for the level handholding they provide, or that handholding should be backscaled to be worth .5 tons. A huge nerf isn't necessary, just correcting stupid rear-exhaust launches (not that tracking to behined the fireing mech post-launch needs to go) and forcing re-acquisition of lock would probably suffice.

Light v Light battles can/should be brought into close quarters when you're using manual SRMs. Mechs like the Raven with no JJs aren't able to shoot behind themselves or take corners at high speeds as effectively, giving you ample opportunity to close the gap and negate the spread difference.

The current "downside" to the crutch is the fact that your firepower is cut in half. Half. On top of that, you lose access to the strongest Light chassis in the game. That's a huge freaking downside. Streaks are absolutely not worth using beyond the training wheels stage.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 08 February 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Vlad Ward, on 08 February 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

The current "downside" to the crutch is the fact that your firepower is cut in half. Half. On top of that, you lose access to the strongest Light chassis in the game. That's a huge freaking downside. Streaks are absolutely not worth using beyond the training wheels stage.

SSRM2 has the same damage as an SRM2. And yes, I know you mean the SRM4, and no you don't balance a Small Pulse Laser by comparing it to a Medium Laser. SSRM4/6 will be around sooner or later, you think the RVN-3L and COM-2D pilots won't upgrade? (Or the Clan equivalent if they're Clantech.)

Never mind the fact that there shouldn't be one 'must have' light chassis in the game. A heirarchy of Jenner = awesome, Streakboat = adequate, All Else = joke is not going to make for an entertaining light mech end of gameplay.

[Flapdrol]

Vlad Ward, on 08 February 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

The typical RVN-3L either loads 2ML 2SSRM2 or 3ML 2SSRM2. I see more of the former in competitive play.

A good JR7-D can load 4ML 2SRM4.



Light v Light battles can/should be brought into close quarters when you're using manual SRMs. Mechs like the Raven with no JJs aren't able to shoot behind themselves or take corners at high speeds as effectively, giving you ample opportunity to close the gap and negate the spread difference.

The current "downside" to the crutch is the fact that your firepower is cut in half. Half. On top of that, you lose access to the strongest Light chassis in the game. That's a huge freaking downside. Streaks are absolutely not worth using beyond the training wheels stage.

A jenner will not have twice the firepower, but true, if you can force the raven into close quarters you might be able to fight them, but you cant make any mistake and even if you win you'll have a lot of damage. But not all raven pilots are stupid, they'll just get a nice volley in at 250m and run back to the team.

How about a fight between a jenner D with 2x srm4, 4 medium lasers versus a jenner D with 2x ssrm2, 4 medium lasers and 2 extra heatsinks (assuming the ssrm jenner carries one ton less ammo). Cant really force that into cqb very easily.

Edited by Flapdrol, 08 February 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Disapirro]

Vlad Ward, on 08 February 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

The current "downside" to the crutch is the fact that your firepower is cut in half. Half. On top of that, you lose access to the strongest Light chassis in the game. That's a huge freaking downside. Streaks are absolutely not worth using beyond the training wheels stage.

An honest mistake of over simplification at best, an obvious attempt at distorting the facts at worst. Your statement of half damage assumes that the medium lasers don't miss. The expected value of damage output would have to be multiplied by some sort of accuracy factor lowering the damage of the Jenner. So, not quite as big a loss of firepower as you say.