55 replies to this topic

[blinkin]

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

@Blink; Those things you say about me are true (that I sincerely want the game to succeed), and that I play an awful lot (I'm in a competitive unit and we aim to be one of the top-tier units in the game, so that means a lot of pugging to work on personal skills, and even more 8-man practice sessions using RHoD drop-decs (2/2/2/2, 3/3/0/2, etc..).

However, in the spirit of fairness, I wouldn't want to be in a game, where just because I'm a founder and some other guy isn't my opinion is magically seen as more "valid", and to be fair to you, I'm sure you don't see it that way either.

i was directly referencing some statements made by codejack about you not ever playing the game. i try to avoid mentioning founders tags in the forums unless they are directly relevant in some way. in this case as evidence that it is very likely that you have played the game at some point.

i get tired of seeing people (myself included) being called trolls or morons because we have reasons for enjoying this game and don't entirely agree that "(insert random game aspect here) is OP and kills puppies"

Edited by blinkin, 12 February 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

And yet none of those things are considered OP, at least ive never seen anyone claim they were.

All those benefits you listed are minor at best. The more skilled pilot will still win the fight.

The streak dependency removes skill from the equation in light battles. What used to be (arguably) the highest skill position on the team has been dumbed down to nothing.

I don't want them the change ECM. I want them to make other equipment have some sort of counterplay with it. same for streaks.

Ideally, id like AMS to work much more effectivley against streaks at short range.

BAP greatly increasing the detection range, and making the minimum range smaller as well, would be a great tweak too.

You're under the frame of mind I'm calling ECM OP. You are mistaken. I'm simply stating other reasons for taking ECM besides that of blocking of LRM/SSRM. As a mostly non-light pilot those things I posted makes a larger difference. Us, larger guys go a bit beyond running in circles and SSRM each other to death.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 February 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Volthorne]

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Indeed, and for scouts, those are negligible bonuses - hardly OP. Worth 1.5 tonnes? I'm easy on that - I could happily see ECM cost like, 1.t on a commando, 1.5 on a spider, 2 on a Raven, 2.5 on a 3M, and say, 5 or 6 tonnes on a DDC; That would be fine, but even as it is, it's still not over-powered.

First of all, you can't just go arbitrarily changing tonnage on things. It ***** up a whole whack of stock load outs if you do.

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Anyway, back to scouts, which is my focus in this thread.

Yes... Scouts... If everyone was FORCED to play Light 'Mechs, this would be valid. Last I checked I was allowed to pilot whatever the hell I wanted, and could expect to do reasonably well provided my IQ is over 100. That included LRM boats without being forced to bring TAG as well.

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1) Guided missiles - We mean LRMs here, as streaks will be carried by enemy Ravens, countering ECM, the point of my post.
LRMs have never been a major threat to any scout worthy of the name.
Been covered so many times on these boards I hope you'll forgive me for not spending much time on this point (not being flippant, just aware of not trying to spam a massive thread )

Ys, it's true that LRMs have never been much trouble to a decent Light pilot. This was further reinforced by any decent LRM boat pilot not firing at Light mechs because he knew it was a waste unless you got lucky and they had been knocked down (I quite literally vaporized a Commando once. I think the only thing that had any Internal Structure left was one of his arms). This is not new news, so.... MOVING ON!

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Second point - if a scout is walking at a measly 50-80 kph with his team, using his umbrella to "hide" them, then you have nothing to complain about.
They've taken one of their greatest assets off the board, wasting him utterly.
They've made him an easy target for gauss or direct-fire, and they've given your scouts complete map-control.

Excuse me? I don't follow your logic. Scouts are all about collecting information, yeah? So then wouldn't a secondary function include denying information to the enemy team? I would agree with your reasoning IF ECM didn't provide a safety blanket of protection from LRMs, which are - sorry, WERE - the best way to engage an enemy force at long range. So... Wait, didn't Lights also used to be for distracting LRM boats from delivering their payload down range? Oh, that's right, ECM, so LRM boats are a non-factor unless they take TAG, which denies them one slot for backup weaponry...

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2) A scout spending more than a few seconds within radar range of enemies is a bad scout, unless he's playing tactically, and using it by hiding close behind enemy lines as a disruption technique while his team flanks or manoeuvres in some other way - Which I feel is an utterly admirable use of ECM, and this kind of tactical play should be encouraged.

Except ECM isn't supposed to disrupt baseline equipment, only advanced war gear (NARC, Artemis IV, BAP, and C3).

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Under normal circumstances though, a scout using his ECM at such close range will be focussed to death in a couple of seconds, so having your radar blocked for those few secs is hardly going to ruin your game.

Ha. Ha ha. Hah hah hah. You're joking, right? Under "normal" circumstances as they are right now, anything that ISN'T a Light or Fast Support is far, FAR more concerned with what's about to come over the ridge and not shooting his friends than murdering an ECM-carrying scout.

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3) As above - A scout trying to use this will get splatted, quickly. Bad scout pilot gets himself killed by thinking ECM stops bullets.

See above.

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4) That's some hold over from TT rules which doesn't really interest me tbh - That effect could be scrapped and I don't think anyone would notice if it wasn't in the patch notes.

That "hold over" was the whole damned POINT of taking ECM in TT. Negating war gear that provided bonuses was THE reason it was implemented in the first place. What it DIDN'T do was also provide the effects of Stealth Armour and Null Signature systems (those were add-ons that had their own drawbacks for providing bonuses that ECM is currently providing free of charge), along with some features of Angle ECM, which isn't even on the drawing board in the current in-universe timeline.

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Again, I'll say - most of the hatred comes from those massive scrums where you get ranks of DDCs all in a blob, and the enemy don't know how to back-cap, or focus without a big red triangle, or whatever.
That's not OP, that's just not liking something.

No, the hatred comes from ECM being a 1.5 ton piece of godware that does the jobs of three extra pieces of equipment, and all this other extra ******** that it was never supposed to do in the first place.

For further reference, read the Master Rules (revised), specifically pages 85, 136, and 147.

[Codejack]

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

You're going round in circles here - You say being able to use streaks is the major reason to take ECM, and then go on to say streaks wouldn't be needed if ECM wasn't so shitballs OP.

Now you are twisting my words; no, being able to use streaks while your opponent cannot is ONE component of ECM that is OP; not being able to detect them before they are too close for some weapons to even work, preventing IFF identification, preventing in-game communication....

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

I'll take a risk here, by asking one question - If what you say is correct, what is so shitballs overpowering about ECM?
In other words; If ECM is the root cause, then what is it's problem? What makes it so OP?

The fact that it does too many things, and too well:

-If it cut detection range to 400m, that would be powerful; 200m is crazy.

-If it extended lock-on times, that would be fine, but preventing them entirely is stupid.

-If it ONLY countered NARC, Artemis and BAP, that would be a respectably powerful piece of equipment; in addition to everything else it does...


The devs themselves admit that almost half of 8-man groups are ECM mechs. 40% of them are playing only 10% of mechs, at best (more like 3% considering they are all 3Ls and DDCs).

The best question so far: If any mech could carry ECM, is there any mech that you would not put it on?

[blinkin]

Codejack, on 12 February 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

The best question so far: If any mech could carry ECM, is there any mech that you would not put it on?

my catpult c4 with srm and many other fast mechs that i wish to use for actual sneaking. ECM emits a 180m proximity warning to any other mech in the area. yes you can switch to the other mode but most of my mechs use dumbfire weapons so that mode is useless. once i am in close lrm are not a threat. streaks don't really matter much anymore except against light mechs (i do think they need a rework to make them interesting and require more skill but that is for another thread: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1 ).

ECM only helps to hide you when you are within line of sight, also known as NOT HIDING. when you are actually sneaking the 180m radius is highly detrimental. i often hunt down ECM mechs by using their jamming radius to guide me.

[BigJim]

Codejack, on 12 February 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

The fact that it does too many things, and too well:

-If it cut detection range to 400m, that would be powerful; 200m is crazy.

-If it extended lock-on times, that would be fine, but preventing them entirely is stupid.

-If it ONLY countered NARC, Artemis and BAP, that would be a respectably powerful piece of equipment; in addition to everything else it does...

Maybe I'm playing the wrong people, but those bonuses do precious little for you when you're playing vs a decent team - I know, because I spend most of my time playing either a Raven (hate it), 3M (love it), Hunchie (no ECM) or Cataphract (no ECM), and if we're playing half decently, ECM doesn't play a large role in the game at all, outside of the Light battle.
I've been in many a league drop where we don't bother with ECM other than the scouts, who are out, scouting.

Those attributes might seem powerful in puggie matches but hell if any of that will do you an ounce of good when the SRs and Kaoses of this world turn on heat-vis and light you up, when their DCs seem to be psychic and know where you are, regardless of LoS, ECM, or anything else (map control is key)..

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The best question so far: If any mech could carry ECM, is there any mech that you would not put it on?

Very good question.
At 1.5t? Some. Only my pugging builds. My competition builds (apart from the scouts, I give you that) are already tweaked so far that I couldn't spare the tonnage for what amounts to so little bonus in return.

In fact, I think this highlights one of the key differences here - when pugging, in those horrible handbag slap-fights that come from nobody having any control or clue what's going on, then that stuff you listed probably seems way OP, but vs a real team, it would be a waste of tonnage on every mech.


I mean, no mech is going to break from the main group in a real match, or the DC would bawl him out, so protection from LRMs is useless, as you won't ever not be in cover, and a decent DC won't let you get into a position where enemy LRMs have a chance to be fired, let alone locked-on.

Scouts report the position and intended course of the mechs using eyeballs, not red dots, plus vs good players who know the maps they know where you are via LoS or inference (if you're not at position-A, then you must be at position-B, etc..), so being invisible to radar is no real bonus most of the time.

Teams who are awake have eyes all over and report all heat-sigs so detection range is limited by distance-fog, not radar.

Enemy DCs already know the maps, many have printed copies by the computer, so they don't need little red triangles to know where you are, if they have scout mechs doing their job (which btw is what I'm talking about Volthorne when I say a scout is one of the teams' greatest assets and not to be wasted babysitting the main force).


Forget taking a medium and doing some bold flanking manoeuvre under ECM cover - Leave that to the fan-fiction, real matches come down to the positioning of your main force and focus-fire/DPS.

If one mech tries a flanking move, like we do all the time in pug matches, the enemy team will eat him alive, and now you're a man down.
Splitting your force is a prime way to get each half eaten in bite-size pieces.

ECM sounds like a good idea in all mechs, but practically, it wouldn't make a difference as one or two mechs would never make the moves that ECM makes possible.


So I guess my answer would be as I say, only in pug matches.
If I had the tonnage free, then why not? I admit it sure beats AMS, but I don't bother with AMS either, for the same reason, LRMs are too situational vs a decent team and the map you get, so it's not worth building a strat around it.

Edited by BigJim, 12 February 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Codejack]

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Maybe I'm playing the wrong people, but those bonuses do precious little for you when you're playing vs a decent team -

I'll just stop you there; you just moved the goalposts, and nothing you build on that assumption is relevant.

Oh, so you can counter a 1.5 ton, 2 slot piece of equipment with only yourself and 3 of your friends? AND THAT'S BALANCE?!

[Ropya]

Personally I always had a problem in TT that it only effected advanced equipment.
I always believed it should effect targeting some if only a +1 to hit.

But only in its active range.

Which brings me to my opinion of ECM in MWO.
There's nothing wrong with what it does now IMO.
What's wrong is it effects you from a kilometer away.
It should do everything it does now but only within 200m.

[Gulinborsti]

I can't remember when I got killed by an "Oh my god so OP Raven with Streaks" last time.
ECM is fine, adapt or die.

[FrostCollar]

Gulinborsti, on 12 February 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I can't remember when I got killed by an "Oh my god so OP Raven with Streaks" last time.
ECM is fine, adapt or die.

So many have adapted. Non-ECM variants of lights that can carry ECM are a rarity and generally the sign of a new player, lights that cannot carry ECM are rare, LRMs are used to a far lesser extent, AMSes are seen far less, and streaks are generally confined to ECM carrying mechs.

The real question is, are we better off than before?

[focuspark]

The answer is no, we are not better off. I don't pilot non-ECM lights. I don't use LRM or SSRM anymore. The game has become drastically reduced from what it once was. Less diversity, less opportunity,

[General Taskeen]

[BigJim]

Codejack, on 12 February 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

I'll just stop you there; you just moved the goalposts, and nothing you build on that assumption is relevant.

Oh, so you can counter a 1.5 ton, 2 slot piece of equipment with only yourself and 3 of your friends? AND THAT'S BALANCE?!

3 friends? No, make it 7, us versus 8 guys in a team who train together frequently, have a knowledge of the game mechanics that rivals that of the devs and are as competitive as rats in a sack - What did you think I was talking about? Pug matches? Screw them.

In fact I was being diplomatic - I still don't think ECM is anywhere near OP, I just said it might seem that way in puggie matches to be a little less combative, and to try and appreciate that some people might have problems with it.
Bone, thrown.
That's all, just trying to be nice.

Edited by BigJim, 12 February 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Volthorne]

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

3 friends? No, make it 7, us versus 8 guys in a team who train together frequently, have a knowledge of the game mechanics that rivals that of the devs and are as competitive as rats in a sack - What did you think I was talking about? Pug matches? Screw them.

In fact I was being diplomatic - I still don't think ECM is anywhere near OP, I just said it might seem that way in puggie matches to be a little less combative, and to try and appreciate that some people might have problems with it.
Bone, thrown.
That's all, just trying to be nice.

Oh, good, 8mans, the one place where LRMs are MORE useless than pugs. Yes, that makes a whole hell of a difference. NOT.

[Headlessnewt]

So, BigJim, in the interest of representing the other side of the field, here.

I've never played on a premade team. I don't have any friends who play this game with me, it's just me and my mech going out and accepting that I'm going to get my face eaten by premades 90% of the time. I don't have the maps memorized. I don't have scouts feeding me enemy position data. I don't know exactly where to stand or not stand, or where enemies must be by process of elimination. I'm also not really interested in learning all that stuff; I want to get into a giant robot and blow up other giant robots.


You're talking about very high-level play. I'm talking about very low-level play. Shouldn't ECM be balanced for both of those, rather than just for yours?

[blinkin]

Headlessnewt, on 13 February 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

So, BigJim, in the interest of representing the other side of the field, here.

I've never played on a premade team. I don't have any friends who play this game with me, it's just me and my mech going out and accepting that I'm going to get my face eaten by premades 90% of the time. I don't have the maps memorized. I don't have scouts feeding me enemy position data. I don't know exactly where to stand or not stand, or where enemies must be by process of elimination. I'm also not really interested in learning all that stuff; I want to get into a giant robot and blow up other giant robots.


You're talking about very high-level play. I'm talking about very low-level play. Shouldn't ECM be balanced for both of those, rather than just for yours?

i mostly pug as well. i think ECM could use some work but it is not the game ender that many describe. i do not have any ECM mechs.

the ECM mech usually tells you where it is at. watch your hud and the minimap. when a friendly player tag disappears it beeps and that tells you that the ECM mech is within 180m of him. when this happens to multiple mechs you can sometimes establish a rough position. pay attention and the ECM mech will tell you where he is hiding without using any coms or coordinating with players. and you get a beautiful warning whenever he is anywhere within 180m of your own mech.



oh yeah i went there!

Edited by blinkin, 13 February 2013 - 02:41 PM.