304 replies to this topic

[OneEyed Jack]

I'll tell you why this argument rages on. A complete lack of reading comprehension by every single person defending the base-rush. If they had the brains of a turnip they could figure out that only a very few people that have EVER posted against base-rushing give a crap whether it was a win or loss (at least pre-ELO).

"Hurr, hurr, if you don't like it, play defense, durr!"

Annnd how exactly did that stop some jackhole on my own team from base-rushing?

"I'll always cap if it's the best chance to win!"

What did the win get you again? An extra 200xp? Um... gratz....



The real case is simply that these people are too worried about the size of their epeen to risk a chance of a loss playing fighting robots... or they really, really need that 300xp, since it's the same 25K for winning as for losing.

I'd rather have a good fight and see "Defeat" on the screen than dodge a fight and see "Victory." But then, I don't feel the need to compensate for anything.

[Suko]

I absolutely HATE it when people whine about base capping. I understand that it may not be as lucrative as murdering the entire enemy team, but a win is a win, and I'll take a win over a loss any day.

The base cap adds an alternate, tactical option to the game. Most of the time I see people whine about a base cap, they're in lumbering assault mechs and were ready and looking for a slug match.

I have lost PLENTY of matches to base caps when we were up 5 mechs to their 2, but I never once thought it was bullsh*t. They tactically out-maneuvered us and won. Usually I will even tell the enemy pilots, "Good job pulling a win out of this match". They deserve the praise, IMO.

[Antony Weiner]

The real issue is the symmetrical Assault mode. Assault has been an asymmetrical mode since freaking Unreal and worked like magic. Symmetrical Assault without respawns is essentially TDM plus cap, which is essentially two modes in one. So, what, you say? Well, in current Assault mode you have people who want to play TDM play TDM.

tl;dr Symmetrical Assault is a fail by default. There should be TDM and asymmetrical Assault.

ShadowVFX, on 13 February 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I absolutely HATE it when people whine about base capping. I understand that it may not be as lucrative as murdering the entire enemy team, but a win is a win, and I'll take a win over a loss any day.

The base cap adds an alternate, tactical option to the game. Most of the time I see people whine about a base cap, they're in lumbering assault mechs and were ready and looking for a slug match.

I have lost PLENTY of matches to base caps when we were up 5 mechs to their 2, but I never once thought it was bullsh*t. They tactically out-maneuvered us and won. Usually I will even tell the enemy pilots, "Good job pulling a win out of this match". They deserve the praise, IMO.

The issue here is that some people do not want to play a cap game mode, and a game mode without cap is absent. Essentially, TDM crowd is forced into the bs Assault.

Edited by Antony Weiner, 13 February 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Cache]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

I'd rather have a good fight and see "Defeat" on the screen than dodge a fight and see "Victory." But then, I don't feel the need to compensate for anything.

Running 8-mans last week we went for a tunnel rush with our heavies in Frozen City while our scouts ran around the back of the dropship (not Jenner Highway). Nobody had any contacts all the way in. Then the opposing team started whining about our capping, challenging us to fight it out. We backed off just before capping to see what they were all about. We had three assaults, two heavies, and three lights. They had 8 Atlases. Didn't seem like a good fight to me. We capped after trading a few shots.

[Terran123rd]

Maybe I'm just weird, but I actually like capping the way it is. One of my favorite matches of all time was, surprisingly, one that my team lost to a cap. They sent 4 of their team to distract us while the rest capped. That kind of tactical play is fun, even if you're on the receiving end.

[Mercules]

First I'll address the, "You can't stop a cap in a PuG."

Evidence offered to counter said statement. I do all the time while PUGging. The whole "I can't count on a PuG to stop it." So don't... stop it yourself. It is obvious when you have 6+ mechs fighting 4 that something is up. That isn't a "Good Fight" you are embroiled in, that is a distraction.

The easiest way to stop a cap in ANY team is to figure out where the enemy is coming from. Do that and you will almost never get capped. I don't mean, "Oh there is a K2 over there with an Atlas." make sure you know where the enemy team is. Do you know how many people I watch pilot their mechs without looking left of right. It's like there is a Navigation marker on the map and they need to stare at it to get there. Look around and people won't be able to sneak up on you, or past you to get to your base.


Now, the whole "It's not fun for someone to cap while I'm fighting." No, it isn't. So why didn't you stop them and get your fight? You decided to blindly rush the Atlas and ignored the Centurion/Cicada/Dragon/Commando/Raven/Jenner/Spider briefly spotted to your right... that is assuming you even bothered to look for anything other than someone trying to meet you in a face to face brawl.

I promise you. Intercept those people trying to cap and you will get your fight you wanted and no capping. Don't bother to change your game play and you will forever be whining about "capping". Most of the time I end up capping is because I decided to flank the enemy, cut around them, and distract a few. Last night I killed an LRM cat after flanking the main force and was 15 meters from the base. I figured someone would come running if I stood there. Nope. Instead I bet they came and posted how boring and awful it was that I wouldn't come fight them.

I started capping another time and had someone say, "come fight don't cap" to which I replied, "You know where I am."


Lets not lie. I AM out to ruin your game and your fun. Why? Because tactically, playing to your strengths is dumb. If you are all grouped up now you have to decide if you can finish off my teammates and still have enough time to come back or break off a couple mechs to deal with me. That puts you on your back foot. Capping is throwing down the gauntlet to me. Come stop me since you didn't seem to be smart enough to watch your flanks. Now you know I am here, what are you going to do about it?


I would much rather fight you than cap, but I am not going to pass up the chance to teach you to watch your back. I am not going to pass up the chance to discomfort you, my enemy. In that match you are my enemy and if what I do gets you angry and making mistakes, that is exactly what I am going to do.

[DegeneratePervert]

I dislike base caps because it feels like I wasted my time booting up the game, even if we win via cap. If I knew we were doing a base rush, i would have started Conquest instead.

[MischiefSC]

Here's the thing.

There's already a 'Conquest' map if you want to cap. That's great, do Conquest. You can select it.

The problem is that we have two versions of Conquest right now - Conquest Full, where there's 6 positions to cap, re-cap and the like, and Conquest Lite (also erroneously called 'Assault'), with only 2 cap locations.

In either map you can also win by fighting but the fastest way to win is actually usually capping.

So there is not a map currently available for people who want to fight. There are two options to cap.

Generally when I point this out someone gives the BS line of 'well, there's only capping on Assault to prevent people griefing by going and hiding and powering down' shortly before it gets pointed out to them 'then why don't you make it 1 capping position that doesn't activate for 10 minutes into the match' at which point they suddenly shift their excuse to 'hey, if you don't defend your base you deserve to lose!'

Wait, I thought the point of cap locations was to prevent being griefed by.... oh. Yeah.

I hate capping ON ASSAULT because it's a cheap CoD mechanic that cheapens the overall tactics available in the game. Why not just have flags to capture that slow your mech down to carry and the like. I mean if you're going to do over-simplified Doom style tactical objectives why even have the pretense of realism to it?

Cap rushing in Assault is the ultimately superior tactic that trumps all other use or application of tactics and makes any pretense of using tactics other than rushing to stand for 60 seconds in the other guys box pointless unless you happen to drop in a map where the other team, like you, wants a more complicated tactical encounter -OR- a chance to actually, you know, do a bunch of combat in a game designed completely around combat.

Pretending by the way that MWO is about anything other than fighting is disingenuous. If you're fast and a scout then your primary job is to scout to aid your team in combat. Spot for LRMs, find out the enemy makeup and tactics, etc. Also to run off or chase down enemy scouts. After the battle is going your job is to shoot people in the back. That's tons of reasons to need a faster engine. So is capping in Conquest maps.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Capping in Assault is a match mechanic harkening back to the most over-simplified FPS games. If you like that then great. The true question here is can we have some other more tactical game match modes like have been recommended, repeatedly, here and in other places? I'm not even asking for a TDM though that would be fun sometimes.

Standing 60 seconds in a square to win is cheap. You can say that cheap victories are still victories but cheap is still cheap. Win on Conquest; that's a good tactical example of that. Win in Assault by, well, Assaulting. The design of Assault as is though is cheap.

[OneEyed Jack]

ShadowVFX, on 13 February 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I have lost PLENTY of matches to base caps when we were up 5 mechs to their 2, but I never once thought it was bullsh*t. They tactically out-maneuvered us and won. Usually I will even tell the enemy pilots, "Good job pulling a win out of this match". They deserve the praise, IMO.

You seem to be suffering from a communication failure. While many people are using the word "capping," it's not the cap itself that is an issue. It's the base-rush to cap as quickly as possible and avoid the fight. Pretty nearly everyone accepts that stealing a win with a cap when you were losing is legitimate and a good play. But when both sides barely get a shot off before it's over, everyone loses.

Not to mention the times when you're winning 5-2 and some ***** on your own team ends it with a cap. It's already very nearly a lock, and generally won't take long to finish and that guy just cost his own team a considerable amount of XP, Cb and, more importantly, fun for absolutely no reason.

[Konrad]

Sure it's a win condition. However, consider the following.

• boring
  
• way less rewards 30,000-40,000 instead of 200,000+ for a kill win (nevermind the minimal xp)
  
• waste of time
  
• no repair bills

And calling people pugs for not wanting to cap is ignorant.

Edited by Konrad, 13 February 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[Esplodin]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Nerdrage

I'm trying to think of a way you could pack more offensive non-productive discussion into one post and get past the filters. Nope, can't do it.

I don't like cap rushes. Even when I was leveling my ravens I always touched the cap for the lulz of heavies and assaults pulling off the skirmish line for little old me. I can count on my hand the number of times I've won by cap out of two thousand matches. What all the anti-cappers don't realize is that this adds dimension to a game that would devolve even more into the dropship/caldera/upper or lower city Mexican standoff. In the real world you protect your evac routes and supply lines even when the mission is close with and destroy the enemy. Why is this hard to grasp?

I'd like to see a TDM mode as much as anyone, but with ZERO details about community warfare no one here has any notion if the two modes we have currently will even be around then. It's a valid win. Things will change when community warfare is released. Quit it with all the ********* and just load up another match. Personally I think all the anger is from the former light pilots that rushed to heavies and assaults when they could no longer make top numbers.

[jay35]

Or maybe variety/diversity in gameplay modes is the spice of life and the path to longevity for this game.

And maybe sometimes people just want to play TDM without the basecap mechanic lurking around to ruin their game.

Maybe the game needs a proper match configuration interface where users can select a game type from a more diverse list (Assault, Conquest, TDM, CTF, etc), not to mention choosing the map instead of it always being random, and can resolve this entirely by providing alternatives to Assault.

Edited by jay35, 13 February 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

The only time I ever touch a cap point is when the opposing team is full of pussehs that take up a fortified position and refuse to budge, as if expecting my team to come into their little trap.

I'll tickle the cap point to force them to move. Once they do--the fight's on! Capping is boring. Killing mechs is fun. Besides, when in NBT was capping a legitimate strategy? About the only time I can think it was okay might have been wayyyyyy back in 1997 on Spy's City or Appetite for Destruction where you had to DESTROY base items that TOOK A LOT OF TIME to do. Not sit on a silly point and watch a clock count down.

I'll admit capping is very useful to prod pusseh teams that want to sit and pick their bungholes until enemies come to them.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 13 February 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[SI The Joker]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

You seem to be suffering from a communication failure. While many people are using the word "capping," it's not the cap itself that is an issue. It's the base-rush to cap as quickly as possible and avoid the fight. Pretty nearly everyone accepts that stealing a win with a cap when you were losing is legitimate and a good play. But when both sides barely get a shot off before it's over, everyone loses.

Not to mention the times when you're winning 5-2 and some ***** on your own team ends it with a cap. It's already very nearly a lock, and generally won't take long to finish and that guy just cost his own team a considerable amount of XP, Cb and, more importantly, fun for absolutely no reason.

If you're getting a mech to your base before anyone gets a shot off... and you can't or won't turn around to go kill it (clearly a small, very fast mover) then you are at fault for your own loss.

I don't disagree... I have more fun fighting... but who am I to dictate to anyone what they need to do to have fun? If one finds fun in capping the base, then so be it. Accept it, and move on. One day you may have TDM which will support all your deathmatch needs... until then, this is the game mode provided. There's always conquest if you don't like it.

[OneEyed Jack]

Mercules, on 13 February 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

I promise you. Intercept those people trying to cap and you will get your fight you wanted and no capping.

I refer you to my post above. Reading comprehension FTW. It's not about winning or losing. A cap win isn't any more fun than a cap loss, though either one can be fun if it was preceded by a good fight.

[Mercules]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I refer you to my post above. Reading comprehension FTW. It's not about winning or losing. A cap win isn't any more fun than a cap loss, though either one can be fun if it was preceded by a good fight.

Irony FTW! Comprehend what I wrote.

Don't allow people to cap you. You ALWAYS get a fight. Allow people to cap you... that is right, your team allowed it. You get no fight. Stop complaining and start doing.

[IceSerpent]

Taurich, on 13 February 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

You're wrong, and I wonder why you're so oblivious to the real reason people don't like cap rushes


It's because dropping into a match, spending three minutes forming up then walking towards the enemy, only to fire 2 shots before losing OR winning the match on cap is freaking boring for everyone involved.

I am not playing MechJogger Online, a robotic jogging simulator. I'm here to shoot stuff

So, you want to shoot stuff, but instead of shooting whatever mechs are trying to cap your base you decide to wander off in a random direction and complain on the forums about it being boring? If you really wanted to shoot something, you would be actually trying to find an enemy to shoot at, right? And that "base is being captured" warning tells you exactly where those enemies are...

[De La Fresniere]

Mercules, on 13 February 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Don't allow people to cap you. You ALWAYS get a fight.

False.

If a couple fast mechs on my team decide to go cap and opponents don't stop them, I only get a fraction of a fight. Everyone loses.

[Deathlike]

If you really want to stop base capping, you should really learn to scout and defend your base. It's not that complicated.

With that said, there are issues with capping that are usually related to having no scouting and/or complete avoidance of engagements (River City is usually prime for something like that). So, instead of the really bad idea of locking out capping, why not simply reduce the rate of capture by 50% in the first 2-3 mins in the match? Instead of having a light mech being able to cap early (to see what happens as a response, which can be a useful tactic), it would hopefully demand from light mechs to distract the opponents from a flanking position (or from behind, preferably). Halving the capture rate also gives the opposing team an opportunity to respond to the threat of multiple mechs capturing in the early game.

Believe it or not, it is actually more beneficial for a team to defend their base in response to an attack, than to cap the opposing team's base as a response to having your own base capped. The ability to simply stop or slow down the capture process is significantly more effective than actual capping, and you are practically guaranteed an engagement with the enemy. There's no bonus for partial capping... it's all or nothing.

[Mystere]

For those who hate losing to a cap, why not mount a base defense instead of rushing to map center or wherever else you want to go PEW-BANG-BOOM?

Also, I have said it before and will say it again: I cap to win and to p1ss people off. Based on many of the responses to the OP, It looks like that is still working extremely well.