304 replies to this topic

[Taemien]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Okay. Again.

Pugs. They don't follow orders if they don't want to. At no way and in no form, other than only playing in lights or fast mediums myself, can I ever actually be sure someone will respond to a base cap.

Also, if most of my team HATES the capping mechanic in Assault (and they typically do) then they just ignore it. They would rather lose but get some fighting in. They're not running for the enemy base they're looking for the enemy to fight.

So, once again. To clarify. Again. If you go cap. And nobody on the other team responds. It is not. IS NOT. Because. They don't understand. How capping works. How to do it. How to stop it. They do it. Because. They. Don't. Care. They are playing. To fight. Other mechs. Win/Loss. No longer. Means ANYTHING. To them. They. Would rather. LOSE. Than. Play. To a mechanic. They HATE.

It's the same reason you see 3Ls with no Streak missiles. They'd rather play at a disadvantage than participate in a mechanic they don't like.

The point is that they shouldn't be playing Assault. They should be playing Conquest, it's just counter-intuitive. You'd assume Assault was focused on fighting but it's not. Conquest is.

In assault though I still say you are wrong. Scouting is pointless. Yes, in River City you can see which way the other team went and decide to go meet them (bad idea unless you leave someone behind) or skirt them the other way and go for the cap rush.

The whole point I'm trying so hard to get through to you is that many people have absolutely no desire to win by capping. They'd rather lose. So when they chose to go the direction the other team goes to fight and someone still rushes for the cap they can either A) quit fighting which is what they're doing for fun and go do something un-fun or B ) ignore it and get some fighting in before the utterly irrelevant (to them) win/loss screen pops up to interrupt their having fun before they drop into another match to go fight again.

Lots of players would rather lose than win by capping or play to capping at all. It's not fun. They don't want to do it. They don't want to be forced to do it. So what you've accomplished is to make people apathetic to win/loss.

Hence, we need another game mode. I expect one is already on the way.

My point, as I've said before, is simply to point out that winning by capping is not some tactical master stroke. It is exploiting apathy. If the other team digs the cap/block cap tactics of Assault and sends people back or whatever, great. You guys play and have fun. I want you to. If they don't though it's because they didn't care. Not because you outwitted them.

I would believe you if it were 10 or more years ago.

Today's breed of online gamer is casual, touchy feelie, liberal, and has some sort of identity problem. The reason they rather lose isn't because they hate a mechanic, they want to fight only if it is on their terms. When you draw a line in the sand, they call you a bully rather than take up the challenge.

The reason I go for a cap isn't to avoid a fight, but to fight on MY terms. Its to pull the enemy out of their little fuzzball and actually go for a tactical battle rather than a random brawl, or a stand off akin to how wars were fought before the 20th century.

I don't give a damn if you want to fight me in a certain way. You only get two choices when I am on the opposing team. Fight me outside that 'perfect' position you set up, or quit/lose. I am not here to entertain you. I'm not here to make the game fair for you. I'm here to kick the crap out of you and win.

Its not my job to make the game fun for PUGs, soloists, casuals.

For those of you that pull the same stunt on me, I applaud you. If you win, you won fair and square. If I respond quickly enough and demolish you, you are still an honored kill, good try and good game.

To the rest of you that whine and moan about me capping. Go flush yourself down a toilet or man up and face the challenge I am presenting. Or call me a bully again, that seems to be the easy way out of these arguments. But I know one thing. Whining and moaning won't help you keep your worlds in Community Warfare.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Laziness and Pride.


I am guilty of both.

[MischiefSC]

Taemien, on 13 February 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

I would believe you if it were 10 or more years ago.

Today's breed of online gamer is casual, touchy feelie, liberal, and has some sort of identity problem. The reason they rather lose isn't because they hate a mechanic, they want to fight only if it is on their terms. When you draw a line in the sand, they call you a bully rather than take up the challenge.

The reason I go for a cap isn't to avoid a fight, but to fight on MY terms. Its to pull the enemy out of their little fuzzball and actually go for a tactical battle rather than a random brawl, or a stand off akin to how wars were fought before the 20th century.

I don't give a damn if you want to fight me in a certain way. You only get two choices when I am on the opposing team. Fight me outside that 'perfect' position you set up, or quit/lose. I am not here to entertain you. I'm not here to make the game fair for you. I'm here to kick the crap out of you and win.

Its not my job to make the game fun for PUGs, soloists, casuals.

For those of you that pull the same stunt on me, I applaud you. If you win, you won fair and square. If I respond quickly enough and demolish you, you are still an honored kill, good try and good game.

To the rest of you that whine and moan about me capping. Go flush yourself down a toilet or man up and face the challenge I am presenting. Or call me a bully again, that seems to be the easy way out of these arguments. But I know one thing. Whining and moaning won't help you keep your worlds in Community Warfare.

Wow. Some sweeping generalizations there.

You're not presenting a challenge. You're not some tactical genius. You're not here 'to kick the crap out of you and win'. You're some guy or gal playing a computer game with big stompy robots based on the Battletech fantasy universe. The mechanic of Assault is in fact the least tactically challenging of any mode and a throwback to the most basic FPS game mechanics from the 80s and 90s.

The whole point is that everyone who's played 20 games gets how Assault matches work. A child could. It's not tough. It's not challenging. Conquest is far, far more complicated and tactically challenging.

You're not being asked to make the game fun for anyone. Nor is anyone here required to be impressed or even care much for your opinion about how you feel other people should feel about the game. The question is what options is PGI looking into for making the game enjoyable for people who want something more (or less even) than Assault.

The debate here is over options for game modes other than Assault and exactly why so many people don't like the Assault game mode. I could get into a debate with you on the psychology of behavior on the internet and what aspects of anonymity, self projection and anger disassociation make people think it's okay to behave in a entitlement minded, narcissistic way on the internet but that seems pretty off topic.

[CrashieJ]

I hated cappers and capping due to the fact that it takes away from the fighting. What I thin kis funny is that PGI took out the R&R costs because there was too many base caps not enough fighting. now since we don't have R&R, NOTHING HAS CHANGED, even when the WHOLE FREAKING COMMUNITY with their FATLASES and UNAWESOMES, their GAWKERS and their kitties whined and complained that they cant run a good fight because of "costs" and now those same people pop in the biggest XL engine that they can get their gruby hands on and run around capping the base... I had a match where a 4 man STALKER TEAM capped the enemy base while I had to hold off 7 other guys coming to my base as an Medium. 4 Assault mechs with 0 damage to their name.

not fun, and what the hell is wrong with you people?

[PerfectTommy]

I still think the cap timer should stop if an opponent is on your base.




-PT

[Shaddie]

Well...
- If you don't like cap-wins, then do something about it - run back and fight. Use some tactics that will prevent it. Trying to do nothing but type insults at the capping team is probably going to probably result in a predictable outcome.. you lose to a cap, and the other team may laugh at you (and they get a bit more xp than you do)

- Trying to argue that your opinion is right and someone else's is wrong, is even dumber... think about it. Everyone has their own preferences, and it's great to say why you feel the way you do, but trying to argue it... well...

[GalaxyBluestar]

not another argument about caping the rewards involved maybe pitiful but i'm not gonna sook in game and jepodise a win and benifits to my team mates so i can pew pew and lose, that's what cap is for, for exposing idiots for the lack of defensive awearness that they have cause they're mindless brawlers.

the more you get capped the more you have to look at yourself and say, gotta stop picking fights in obvious places and start to follow mission directives to protect base and swat smartarses when they don't go to those obvious shoot outs.

really 2 power blobs continuosly colliding is just as boring as constant cap racing so whilst caps are in assault we actually have to think about what we're doing and where to go, tactics happen and that's what the game's about so learn or get rolled by "trolls" who actually know better.

[Waladil]

Let me tell you a story.
This story revolves around a group of eight MechWarriors, all with the fire of war running through their veins. Damage and death had reduced their company to just two lances, with no replacements on the horizon. Orders came down to deploy on some 200 degree Celsius rock nicknamed "Caustic Valley." As they geared up for the drop, the company made cracks and jokes about how they'd be piloting their Commando commando to stave off the heat. On the rock, arrayed around their DropShip, they waited. And waited.

The long-range sensors crackled to life -- an enemy DropShip was disgorging two lances of 'Mechs on the other side of a large caldera. The MechWarriors made their prayers, and powered up.

The battle was not long, but it was fierce. When the smoke cleared, our company consisted of four 'Mechs that could still stand, and two MechWarriors that successfully ejected. Seven enemy 'Mechs lay dead on the ground. The ejected pilots were found, and the team returned to base to mourn their losses and praise their victory. But disaster awaited them -- a single 'Mech, unnoticed and undamaged, had slipped past their lines and sabotaged the DropShip! The engines were irreparable, and the radio transmitter was scrap, too.

Eventually they hunted down and killed the transgressor, a Raven hiding amongst the steam vents, but the damage was done. All six pilots eventually died of starvation, heat stress, and chair sores.

The moral: DEFEND YOUR GORRAM BASE OR YOU'LL DIE OF STARVATION.

[Mystere]

Huntsman, on 13 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

It is beyond me why anyone would cap in assault. Aside from simply being less fun than fighting, the c-bills you earn vs the time spent to earn them is no longer equitable by capping in assault.

For some folks, it's not the c-biils or XP. It's the copious amounts of male nerd rage tears, rivers upon rivers of them.

[Znail]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

The debate here is over options for game modes other than Assault and exactly why so many people don't like the Assault game mode.

Plenty of people likes Assault, as can be seen by the arguments both way. There already is another mode then Assault called Conquest, that you actually like.People are free to deselect any mode they don't like. So what is the problem again?

[Commander Kobold]

Spawnsalot, on 13 February 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Capping is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. Without it matches would descend into the situations Hou described and "Find that last ECM/jump jet light hiding in the corner."

It should be a last resort until they make the capping objective more challenging.

People keep spouting things like "If you don't have someone to defend, then of course you're going to lose." and "I don't need the XP/C-Bills, so why do anything else?"

Go ask a PUG player to sit on the cap to defend it at the start of a match, while the rest of the team moves off to shoot mechs with lasers and let us know what they say.

A lot of us playing who are against capping don't need/care about the wins (and possibly not the XP/C-Bills), we're here to get stuck in and fight each other in massive walking tanks. "It's the journey, not the destination" and all that...

You want to cap? Fine, why not just hold off for a few minutes and let your team mates have a good scrap first? You could even contribute to the fight (in your base-capping atlas...) and *then* go cap - that's not completely unreasonable is it?

but no one has a problem with the cap being used to avoid playing find the squirrel, it's when they shut down the match within the first few minutes, or while the fur ball is in full swing and no one can break off to go stop them.

[Taemien]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

The debate here is over options for game modes other than Assault and exactly why so many people don't like the Assault game mode. I could get into a debate with you on the psychology of behavior on the internet and what aspects of anonymity, self projection and anger disassociation make people think it's okay to behave in a entitlement minded, narcissistic way on the internet but that seems pretty off topic.

It would be pretty offtopic, though I wasn't making a generalization, more like a stereotype, but I digress.

Though I can understand people prefer a different game mode. Thats fine, I can deal with that. What I do not like is when other players use peer pressure to get others to play how they wish. Saying things like "Oh you suck, you don't want a real fight, thats why you cap." That seems to be a popular tactic and those players are who my statements are directed towards.

I can deal with a logical and well thought out discussion on the topic of additional gamemodes. Though I wonder why there would be any debate. I mean variety is great I think everyone can agree on that.

Assault has its place though. I'd love for it to remain as a gamemode for scrimmaging. A gamemode like that would lead very well to a planetary league that uses it say for a planetary raid. You can wipe out your opponents, or sneak in and grab the goods, aka capping.

I'll give you credit though, you saw what I said as what it was, a shotgun blast over the head.

[Jake Stark]

I think the real point of contention from this thread is the lack of any real mission with substantive results, like clan wars.

Obviously clan wars being in the future, I would settle for more mission oriented fights, like team A defend the weapons plant, Team b destroy the weapons plant. Much like the missions in the old school Mechwarrior PC games like Mercenaries.

Everytime I was playing single player I wished all other mechs were actual humans. Now that we have the technology we have forgotten that feeling and falling into the standard death match type of play that is copied by TOO many games.

[MischiefSC]

Znail, on 13 February 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

Plenty of people likes Assault, as can be seen by the arguments both way. There already is another mode then Assault called Conquest, that you actually like.People are free to deselect any mode they don't like. So what is the problem again?

For me? Nothing. I think most people who are raging over Assault need to just select Conquest, it's a bit counter-intuitive but it's going to be a better choice for them.

Most of my comments are pointed at the people who's response is 'Pfft, if you were as uber cunning as me at the brilliant tactics of the Assault cap/counter cap it wouldn't be a problem'.

Not pointed at you, really.

Taemien, on 13 February 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

It would be pretty offtopic, though I wasn't making a generalization, more like a stereotype, but I digress.

Though I can understand people prefer a different game mode. Thats fine, I can deal with that. What I do not like is when other players use peer pressure to get others to play how they wish. Saying things like "Oh you suck, you don't want a real fight, thats why you cap." That seems to be a popular tactic and those players are who my statements are directed towards.

I can deal with a logical and well thought out discussion on the topic of additional gamemodes. Though I wonder why there would be any debate. I mean variety is great I think everyone can agree on that.

Assault has its place though. I'd love for it to remain as a gamemode for scrimmaging. A gamemode like that would lead very well to a planetary league that uses it say for a planetary raid. You can wipe out your opponents, or sneak in and grab the goods, aka capping.

I'll give you credit though, you saw what I said as what it was, a shotgun blast over the head.

I can absolutely agree that Assault needs to stay. My main point is that people raging about Assault are not so much saying Assault needs to change as they are saying they want a different game mode. Conquest is a dedicated base cap mode, Assault seems like it should be a more combat-centered map so people play Assault for fighting. It's not though, Conquest is better for that. People don't assume that though, they figure there's a capture mode and there should be a combat mode and so play Assault.

Winning via capture in Assault though isn't a tactical coup. Winning via caps in Conquest when outnumbered 5 to 2 is. People are frustrated with Assault because they want something else and want Assault to be it.

What we need is the 'something else'. Fortunately I have faith in PGI to provide it.

[SpiralRazor]

Imperial X, on 13 February 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

+1 to this suggestion

Thats true...it would still get rid of stalemates, which was its intended function.


Please one base on Assault...it would be an hour of work, tops.

[D3athsong]

There is a simple solution for all those wanting to play a tdm style game. Play conquest. While there might be a light or 2 that run around avioding enemy mechs, everyone else caps a base or 2 then meets in the middle for an all out slugfest. Then whats left of the team that didn't have the lights running around avoiding the enemy moves to the base that the lights are capping and tears them apart. Far more victories are due to the other team lying in the smoking ruins of there mechs in conquest then in assault. It's a simple solution for those of us who after working all day, just want to sit down with a drink or 2 and play a few games stomping around in a giant war machine and shooting stuff.

[MustrumRidcully]

Esplodin, on 13 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

How about we bring in and expert opinion?

http://suntzusaid.com/book/6

"If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve."

and http://suntzusaid.com/book/8

"The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable."

I would highly suggest to anyone on this forum to pick up a copy, read and meditate (think) on the concepts therein. My FAVORITE translation with beginner essays, annotated and unannotated manuscript:

http://www.amazon.co...ntt_at_ep_dpt_4

I believe Sun Tzu was talking about war, something you want to win the fastest, easiest, and safest way possible for your side, and are not doing it for "fun". We, on the other hand, are playing a war game, that's all about the fun of zapping each other with lasers and other weapons.

[Adrienne Vorton]

honestly, i hate it..

especially when it´s a few of MY team who cap the enemy, while the rest of us has a good fight, and probably have a good chance of winning anyway... even if you ask them not to cap, if they still do it, that just plainly suxx ... just like yesterday, the score was 2:2, the fight just started, we were about to kill the third one...match over... sorry guys, but it just suxx, nothing else to say about it... sure it´s a win condition,but one that should be the very last priority

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 14 February 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[Kaspirikay]

Well right now theres no Team Deathmatch, so all is fair if people want to rush cap.

[Craftyman]

troll thread