111 replies to this topic

[Orzorn]

KuruptU4Fun, on 14 February 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

If L v L battles are one dimensional that would mean M v M/ H v H/ A v A all suffer from the same problem.

Not true. L v L battles are one dimensional because keeping locks with a streak is trivial. This doesn't effect mediums or heavier mechs as much because those mechs don't often run 140 kp/h. When I can enter and leave the center, or even 20 degrees of center on either side, within under a second, yet you can maintain a lock just fine, something is wrong.

As I said, I've tested it, and its about 45 degrees on each side. You don't even have to be paying attention to the locked target to keep a lock. Using speed to avoid SSRM locks, is thus, essentially impossible. Additionally, we've all see the crazy spinning SSRMs against Spiders. Speed does not help, and thus, L v L is very lopsided in favor of SSRM users, because speed DOES help against every other weapon in the game.

[Ilwrath]

The failed Tribes game just released a patch that includes:

• Three new CTF and Blitz maps available!
  
  • CTF Bella Omega
    
  • CTF Blueshift
    
  • CTF Canyon Crusade Revival

• Three new Arena maps available!
  
  • Arena Fraytown
    
  • Arena Undercroft
    
  • Arena Whiteout

• Four Rabbit maps have been added to the queue:
  
  • Inferno
    
  • Nightabatic
    
  • Outskirts
    
  • Sulfer Cove

This non-failed game will hopefully give us 1 new map next week and then a month before the next (if we are that lucky).

[Deamhan]

I can only assume people who complain about LRMs being "skill-less" have only had to deal with them on the recieving end.

Even with ECM removed from the game...

If you want to make use of their range, odds are you will be trying to get a lock off of a team mate's target. If your team doesn't press R, you're gonna have to get line of sight and within range to do it yourself.

That one is pretty minor...

You have to maintain target long enough to get a lock.

Again another minor...

Now that you fired after getting a lock, you have to maintain that lock or else your missiles will no longer track the moving target and miss.

This is more than a minor but not a major, let's say a medium....

So you have a good team that all pressed R on the "focus", so you know you won't have a problem with maintaining lock for the missiles' flight to target. However, they get that most annoying and but greatly benefitial "incoming missile" warning and position themself next to cover and every single one of your missiles fail to hit.

This is a major....

If two minors = a medium and two mediums is a major than you have a combined total of two major drawbacks to the use of LRMs.

What makes LRMs a problem are bad pilots. That is, the LRMs are a problem for bad pilots.

Avoid open terrain until you have identified and removed the LRMs from play. Too often I see people out getting long shots as the LRMs are inbound and therefore take hits before they have time to get under cover. These guys are easy to spot because on a map like forest coloney when the two teams are at either side of the boat and there are LRMs a plenty on the other team, these guys who are out in the open for too long get killed by those LRMs. There is nothing I enjoy more than popping out long enough to hear "incoming missile" and get right back behind cover to hear them all hit that building or hill side just for me to pop back out and repeat the process. All the time wishing RnR was back so that every volley that misses is c-bills wasted.

Unfortunately those who expose themselves and die ends up making the team go from 8vs8 to 8vs5 or 8vs4 and that's when the rest of the team that was smart enough to stay under cover is simply rolled over by numbers. Then, those that lose to a team making heavy use of LRMs blame the LRMs instead of the real blame. Those pilots that allowed themselves to be hit by them and die.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Orzorn, on 14 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Not true. L v L battles are one dimensional because keeping locks with a streak is trivial. This doesn't effect mediums or heavier mechs as much because those mechs don't often run 140 kp/h. When I can enter and leave the center, or even 20 degrees of center on either side, within under a second, yet you can maintain a lock just fine, something is wrong.

As I said, I've tested it, and its about 45 degrees on each side. You don't even have to be paying attention to the locked target to keep a lock. Using speed to avoid SSRM locks, is thus, essentially impossible. Additionally, we've all see the crazy spinning SSRMs against Spiders. Speed does not help, and thus, L v L is very lopsided in favor of SSRM users, because speed DOES help against every other weapon in the game.

So with that reasoning, if any mech can carry ECM to protect itself from SSRM fire then it should itself not be able to use SSRM's because of the same jamming. A point I have stood behind myself many a time.

[Orzorn]

KuruptU4Fun, on 14 February 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

So with that reasoning, if any mech can carry ECM to protect itself from SSRM fire then it should itself not be able to use SSRM's because of the same jamming. A point I have stood behind myself many a time.

Or ECM could just not jam SSRMs (within 180 meters, at the very least), and SSRMs could be balanced in the way I said before.

It doesn't have to be so black and white. I can't stand ECM because it cuts missiles out of so much of the game, but that doesn't mean I like how missiles work right now either.

The way I see it, they all need changes, along with BAP, NARC, and TAG. Artemis changes are coming down the tube.

[hammerreborn]

KuruptU4Fun, on 14 February 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

So you achieve the same goal either way, by destroying the ECM or the mech itself. Allowing LRM's and SSRM's to be used accordingly.


Tikka this isn't TT, SSRM's are a guaranteed hit to LT/CT/RT. All you need is a short time to lock on.

If L v L battles are one dimensional that would mean M v M/ H v H/ A v A all suffer from the same problem.

There's nothing one dimensional about MvM/HvH/AvA. Each of those have various builds and setups that allow many different avenues of attack. For instance, fast M/H/A vs non-fast. The faster dragon can out manuever the slower cataphract, that's one dimension. The weapon loadouts can be vastly different, from the guasspult at range to the splatterpult at point blank.

The only fights in LvL are streak v streak, non vs non, and non vs streak. Only one of those fights is actually fun and requires skill of it's participants, and thats the non vs non. The other two are a joke. The first just requires luck rolls to get more L/RT hits to core the XL faster than the other guy can core you, and the third is the non praying to god he can actually hit the raven with stronger alphas (in the case of a spider this is where the spider just gives up because it'll never beat the damage of a raven) and that the streaks will hit everywhere rather than a focused spot.

As all lights go the same speed its just a circle of luck and death.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Ok, I see your point Hammerreborn, though my Jenner's never held SSRM's (I preferred MPL's) in going thru a couple of matches where lights were the primary mech that was the case.

[MischiefSC]

Tennex, on 14 February 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

its ridiculous. i play a 3L and i can tell you, once u get that first lock. there is no effort besides pressing the fire button and moving your sights once every 5 minutes to cross the target.

I saved up and spent around 8 million on a Raven 3L, all tricked out....

and I can't make myself use it. It's so easy, the thing really shines at stealing kills and effortlessly slaughtering other lights. My 3rd run in it, 3rd run I had 4 kills and about 400 damage. I had 2 matches out of the 50 matches I played in it where I didn't easily kick the crap out of people.

I just can't make myself play it now, it just feels so cheap. After working so hard to get decent in a Jenner, I hope in a 3L and do far better than the Jenner ever could out of the game. People say 'A good Jenner pilot is scary'.... no, a good Jenner pilot is almost as good as a pretty average 3L pilot. It's just that all the incompetent light pilots went to 3Ls and it requires no skill to get better at so they're not improving.

You rarely run into a truly talented 3L pilot because you don't have to get talented. When you do that's the 3Ls you see dropping any mech they see on the field. Quite hit and run, you don't even have to try and look at them or aim. You just pop out enough to get your SSRMs off and back behind cover. Your shots will largely hit CT, you just play a waiting game. If the opportunity to put a laser in their back shows up you take it.

It's not that the 3L is 'hugely OPed'. You can beat a Raven. However what if you traded all the Cicada 3As lasers for missile mounts and gave it ECM? 6xSSRM2s and ECM with high speed? Would it be 'balanced'?

No, no it wouldn't at all. It has 6 energy mounts, you could give it 6 missile mounts instead, or whatever loadout option you want. ECM and SSRMs though, because of how badly balanced ECM is makes any sort of combo of them highly effective with no skill requirement.

A Catapult with 6xSSRM2s isn't OPed. SSRMs are not so much the issue. ECM is the issue and its effect on SSRMs. Auto-hit plus general immunity to enemy targeted weapons (tag lasts a couple of seconds. Any fast mech will be under cover and out of tag before the LRMs are half way to him 80% of the time) equals a blaring example of the issues with ECM/Missile balancing.

Please fix it. Please.

[hammerreborn]

KuruptU4Fun, on 14 February 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Ok, I see your point Hammerreborn, though my Jenner's never held SSRM's (I preferred MPL's) in going thru a couple of matches where lights were the primary mech that was the case.

I despise SSRMs, not just because they lack skill, but because I prefer ripping a person apart one piece at a time, and streaks won't allow that. Even my 3L that I sold nearly instantly after buying ran a SRM6 and an SSRM because lets face it, there's nothing else to put in that NARC slot.

I'll still take my Jenner over any light in a 1 on 1 fight (with 2 meds a TAG and 2 SRM4s with 2 tons of ammo). As long as they aren't from Europe or downloading their **** for 300 ping lagshield goodness I'll shred them nearly everytime.

[Rina Fujimoto]

OH BOY.

I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post the moment you said autos are better than spinfusors.

As someone who played Tribes: Ascend since alpha I can tell you right now to not listen to a word he says, he's as good as the people who complain ECM somehow cancels out their SRM's or Ballistics.

Using autos in T:A is probably one of the most hardest things to do in the game, and I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone who complains in-game about autos being OP.

If they're so OP, why doesn't everyone use them? The default Technician submachine gun is the best weapon in the game with the highest DPS out of all the autos (it can drop a Heavy in under one clip iirc, compared to the SEN auto which takes around 3, Raider 2), yet why doesn't everyone use it over the Thumper, which is an unlock weapon?

Why does no one use the default Infiltrator load-out despite also being one of the best weapons in the game?

Because its hard as **** to lead and hit a tiny tiny *** flying high speed target shooting explosives with knockback at you.

[Adridos]

Tribes never failed. There are many dudes playing the game to date and it had made a great mark on the FPS genre.

Now, Tribes: Ascend is something that leeches off the name, but that's all the similarity it has with Tribes/Tribes 2.
Simply another Tribes: Vengence. Smaller, UT engine using and worse than the previous games.

[Ilwrath]

haruko, on 14 February 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

OH BOY.

I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post the moment you said autos are better than spinfusors.

As someone who played Tribes: Ascend since alpha I can tell you right now to not listen to a word he says, he's as good as the people who complain ECM somehow cancels out their SRM's or Ballistics.

Using autos in T:A is probably one of the most hardest things to do in the game, and I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone who complains in-game about autos being OP.

If they're so OP, why doesn't everyone use them?

We don't use them because we want to play Tribes. Not play some cod-kiddie shooter.
Automatics are THE noobtube in Tribes Ascend and you should feel like a little ****** cod kid if you use them. A pathectic cod kiddo that take the easy way out instead of using grace weapons. Yeah you stink.

But this thread is not about Tribes, its only used as an example so better get back on track.

[Robottiimu2000]

imho Tribes failed for three reasons:

(1) Not listening to the pro-gamers, making the game more easy and less skill based patch by patch, thus driving away the "elite" tribes players.

(2) faling to provide good content for clans, metagaming, something to fight for in the long run.

(3) not giving the solo-players any bigger picture to fit in.

[lsp]

Tribes failed because it was a terrible game to begin with.

[Ave Hax]

Mad max the patch is right but not very informative of how if my ecm raven is bubbeling an enemy next to me he cant lock any of my allies in his lrm boat with tag

[Fuzzbox]

LRMs are low skill to use, but just lowering damage is not the way to go. If you lower the damage too much that just means LRM5 will become useless in most situations. If we look at the standard 'Mech configurations we will find many mech with a single small launcher, they had a purpose so lets not kill the purpose just because there are boats around.

Many say that economy is a bad way of balancing, I'd say that should be one of many parts, others being reload costs (gone), rounds per ton, space per ton, etc.

My point is that there is no single way of "fixing" lrms; the more they depend on; the more they can be tweaked. Unfortunately rearm/reload/repairs are now gone (not to be reintroduced) so that is one dimension less. Without BV another dimension is lost. So now we are stuck with only damage per missile and missiles per ton. So for now I guess we will see if we get loads of boats, then damage will be nerfed, else I guess all is good.

[Fut]

Tennex, on 14 February 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

but the result is binomial gameplay. where if you bring LRMs, and the enemy has ECM. match is decided before it begins.

disclaimer: i do not boat LRMS

The biggest problem with MWO is the fact that people insist on spreading misinformation. There's no way to tell if the misinformation is being told intentionally (as a joke, or just for *****/giggles), or if the posters are ill informed on the subject.

Don't take this as me trying to accuse you of anything, I'm just trying to point out that what you're trying to tell people is 100% false. I don't boat LRMs either, usually only use 1 LRM10 or 15, yet I've managed to destroy several ECM equipped 'Mechs - while using my LRMS.

Please, stop spreading the misinformation that ECM completely negates LRM use.
Please, stop spreading the idea that ECM decides the outcome of battle before the match begins.
All of it is just wrong.

I'd like to add that I don't think ECM should stay the way it currently is.
I think that the game would benefit from having ECM broken into specialty units.
Either that, or more EWAR equip should be added to help balance ECM slightly.

[Adridos]

Ilwrath, on 14 February 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

That depends. Tribes Ascend has about 800 players going at all times. That is less than this game.

Why don't you read the entiriety of the post before responding?

Tribes ('98 game with 64 people per map)!=Tribes Ascend ('12 game with 32 people per map).

[lsp]

Tennex, on 14 February 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

The effort to reward ratio was not very well thought out.

Spin fusors required a lot of skill and effor to use, however, after hours of gameplay mastering the spin fusor. you can easily get shot down by an enemy automatic weapon. which just required a bit of leading, where as the spin fuser required the enemy to land on the ground before a hit or preform a very hard blue plate special in the air.

There are a lot of similar issues in this game. For example, the effort required to use LRMs is minimal compared to other weapons. Sure you can say well if someone has ECM its "harder" to use LRMs, but not really. Its situational, either you can use LRMs in the absence of ECM or you can't in the presence of it. theres no middle ground and no skill required. All of this is decided before the match begins.

Similarly in light mech brawling situations. A huge amount of effort is required to down a ECM sSRM raven, in a mech without either of those equipment. And in the end, even if you have the skill, you will likely still die. But for the 3L effort is minimal and reward is great.

Both of those scenarios you described would be failures as a pilot. There's no counter to lock on missles(ssrms), unless they come out with flares for mechs... Balance does not make good games, I don't where all you people keep getting that from. If you know a raven 3l is going to kick your ***, then don't fight it alone.
Not everything should be a 1:1 ratio. The Arma series is a perfect example of it doesn't take game balance to make great games. The same thing you said about the raven 3L can be said about many other mechs. Any form of cat boater, ac20 ,gr ,srms, ssrms. I wouldn't try to take one of those on if I was alone, unless I could get above or below him. These things require team work and a little thing called f o c u s f i r e, after all this is a team oriented game this isn't rambo's game.

[Zolaz]

[REDACTED] ... SSRMs are easy mode. If you like easy mode use them. If you dont like easy mode dont use them. They are suppose to hit 100% of the time. That is what Streaks do.

[REDACTED]

Edited by mcann, 14 February 2013 - 02:55 PM.
Insults/ad hominem