112 replies to this topic

[Tahribator]

As long as we're able to fit AC20s in the machine gun slots of a catapult in this game, boating will be viable and even superior.

There should be sublimits for each weapon type slot.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

Does it matter? Can people play the way they want without unneeded scrutiny? Lore AND TT didn't take several key factors into play at all when they were written. In lore and the novels, it's about telling a story. More options for the lead characters in a brawl to deal with opponents added to the drama and suspense of fights. In TT, it was based on turns. An attempt to tell the story of combat on a hex map where people had plenty of time to make decisions and movement and fire took place at separate times. Neither of which replicate reality.

Human reaction, human precision, the ability to do several things at once...this MMO is trying to maintain the feel of BT/MW while allowing people to play in real time. It's a huge constraint in many ways and being that its competitive, it will always result in a percentage of players "boating" for the sake of simplicity and effectiveness. By doing so, they trade alphas at a given range for flexibility and they pay for that in game....it's just that most players are cognizant enough of these trade offs to work ardently towards maintaining those ranges etc.

Ever play the board game squad leader? One of, if not the most revered of TT games to try and represent small unit combat in WWII (and in other modern timelines later). Guess what....nothing like real combat.

Roles develop over time from the actions of the players as they figure out what works and what doesn't.

My recommendation to all of the naysayers and canon-keepers....develop a lore for MWO based on OUR actions in game and stop worrying if someone deviated from canon-TRO and took an extra laser to replace their LRM5 (especially since many of the TRO entries were obviously just written and never playtested anyway, as their builds actively contradict their TRO descriptions...something that's been pointed out numerous times by others on this forum already). Its our MW universe to write the story of, so let us write the story.

OP, I realize you're not the one complaining but this thread has plenty of it and we always go down this road when someone brings up min/max or canon-variants on the forums as if they're somehow sancrosanct and untouchable for immersion's sake.

[Wittyname Terribad]

We are fighting only mechs, and many of the designs we know and love actually are specialized boats; rifleman, jagermech, catapult, archer, masakari, black hawk, awesome, etc etc.

[zraven7]

Canon mechs are built not knowing what situation they are going into, or sometimes, who they will be fighting with. It's kinda not the situation in this game. If the scenarios were as predictable in the novels as they are in the game, mechs would probably be a bit more specialized. It's just circumstantial.

[Lootee]

There are plenty of specialized mechs in the TROs. Look up Komodo or Salamander. One is a 10 medium laser ECM medium mech designed to put the pain on elementals and mechs that close to short range. The other has 3 LRM20s.

Play whatever you like. There are plenty of generalist and specialist canon mech variants.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I don't have a problem with boating, while those players may be strong in one area they make their builds weak in many many more. The big leagues normally don't cripple themselves with boats.. sure they may be very effective killers, but what's even more effective than designating one or two players to a certain job (and then possibly loosing those assets) is designating all players to multiple roles through technology and weapons load.

Take it from a veteran when I say that after lots of gameplay passes and you acquire all the tech/mechs... you start to shy away from those easy kill bots many of use got our feet wet with in favor of a much more well rounded build that can fulfill many roles, such as light hunting, ranged sniping, and brawling (oh that wonderful instant damage!).

It's always fun to go back and re-configure that boat that is OP (in it's own way), and if you can play those strengths 'n also understand your weakness then those builds can be used to great success by solo players.. let alone well organized groups. But it's very frustrating when the Match Making gods put you in a situation there is no walking away from, only running and probably butt-sore at that.

When you walk away from a fight you want to feel honorable, and like you won or lost deservingly so. Not like, aaaweee my ssrm cat met ecm and poop... or, i was in my srm6 cat and then enemy placed themselves on the map so I couldn't approach them on my own without being killed... "I'm a walking waste of 65 tons." So you feel cheap, + your enemy usually tells you you're cheap while they enjoy plucking you apart.

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 15 February 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[jay35]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Alas, it's not as practical in a first-person shooter game that is accessible to the general gamer audience. Too many buttons to press and too many ranges to remember means smaller interest base. It's much easier if you can keep to 1-2 weapon types that can be bound to the LMB and RMB and only have 1-2 ranges to keep in mind. That's simple enough for most people to handle.
So this is one area where variance from canon is a benefit to the overall gameplay and user experience, while those who want to be all traditional can still have up to six weapon groups. I'd say PGI has covered both preferences nicely by keeping a variety of slots on the chassis to allow for a variety of builds that can meet the needs of both types of players.

Edited by jay35, 15 February 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Khobai]

MWO needs to offer bonuses for playing mechs canonically and it fails to do that. The result is you end up with min-max builds instead of builds that make sense canonically.

I have nothing against min-maxing. But I think people who want to run stock mechs or builds close to the stock design that follow the spirit of the tabletop game shouldnt be at the huge disadvantage they currently are. So thats why I think every mech needs to grant bonuses for using its canonical loadout... so you have both the option to min-max or run the mech as it was intended.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[TheForce]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

Every multiplayer implementation of MW has been MinmaxWarrior. It sucks for Btech/MechWarrior fans because instead of playing out games like in the lore, we are forced to build splatcats and PPC boats to be effective.

The only way around this is to enforce specific rules for each game (ie: no more than 2 of one weapon type, etc.), or stock mech battles.

It turns out a lot of people are interested in stock mech battles: http://mwomercs.com/...only-game-mode/

[Snowblack]

jay35, on 15 February 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Alas, it's not as practical in a first-person shooter game that is accessible to the general gamer audience. Too many buttons to press and too many ranges to remember means smaller interest base. It's much easier if you can keep to 1-2 weapon types that can be bound to the LMB and RMB and only have 1-2 ranges to keep in mind. That's simple enough for most people to handle.
So this is one area where variance from canon is a benefit to the overall gameplay and user experience, while those who want to be all traditional can still have up to six weapon groups. I'd say PGI has covered both preferences nicely by keeping a variety of slots on the chassis to allow for a variety of builds that can meet the needs of both types of players.

During closed beta after a reset, we had to grind 50+ matches for a commando. During these times I had the chance to try out the Atlas 5R. Trial mech, only trial mech were avalaible until u bught ur first one so I said the bigger the better and lets do some damage.

WG 1 2 large laser
WG 2 AC 10
WG 3 SRM 6
WG 4 LRM 10-15 dont remember

I loved the desing 4 diferent ranges and types it was hard to manage but had the most fun ever since. Got 6 kills in 1 lucky game. It was mixed loadout and I admit sometimes the SRM 6 was unused but there were times that it saved my *** in a brawl.

ui Im a dedicated Dragon and Centurio pilot

Edited by Snowblack, 15 February 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[DaZur]

Sorry... While romantic and fluffy in novels and TT, MW:O is a competitive FPS online arena. As such until systems are in place to necessitate balanced builds (Alpine may be such a situation to urge balance IMO) it's ridiculous to expect someone not to filed the most devastating maxed build to achieve the most wins and most damage...

Nature of the beast...

That said, I do support the proposition of stock build arenas. If for no other reason than to provide a opportunity for more drawn-out strategic engagements.

[Nightfangs]

I am no friend of boating.

The ASRM-Cat may be brutal, but if you have played one yourself, you quickly find out that it is quite frustrating to sit behind cover for most of the match because you would get slaughtered before being able to use your weapons at close range.
Most good LRM-Platforms are boats too, because they behave so differently from all other weapons you really can't combine them efficiently. But it is quite possible to use them together with a few energy weapons. I also know a few centurion LRM-mechs that do over 500 damage most of the time, so it IS possible to play them.

With those exceptions, I don't think boats are the pinnacle of mech design, even if you just want to min/max your damage potential.
All of my mechs (I play heavies/assaults 90% of the time) have at least 3, often 4 weapon groups with different types of weapons. My "standard" Cat has 3, my Stalker 4 weapon groups/types of weapon.
I get far better results than with 2 different classes of weapons, and only 1 weapon type would result in desaster, I'm sure of that!

[Galland]

There are situations where both specialized and generalist 'Mech designs would make sense. An LRM Catapult A1 will undoubtedly bring a world of hurt on targets beyond 180 meters, but if an opponent manages to get under the LRMs' minimum range, the A1's a sitting duck. The same is true for a stock Hunchback 4G, beyond 270 meters, his weapons do significantly less damage and an opponent with multiple long range weapons like an Ilya can seriously damage it before it can close the distance. A 'Mech with a mix of multiple weapons, like a stock Centurion can be more effective at all ranges and situations. I would rather be prepared for all types of engagements so I will usually pack multiple range weapons on my builds. PPCs or lighter ACs for long range, Medium Lasers for medium range, and SRMs for that little extra short-range kick in the balls.

I'm also for a C-Bill or XP bonus for pilots who choose to run with stock designs. That way there will be some incentive to using them rather than just everyone min/maxing everything.

Edited by Galland, 15 February 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[UraniumOverdose]

Boating is fine, and you can make a non boating mech that competes because EVERY SINGLE BOAT has weaknesses.

Examples of boats: Dual 20 cat, Splatcat, Laser Hunch, PPC Stalker, LRM boats.

Weaknesses:

Dual 20 cat: Slow, Most likely limited armor in legs, Most likely has 49 or fewer rounds.
Analysis: Target soft legs, ammo will explode. Otherwise keep 20cat at range with superior speed. If the 20 cat faces you aim for the gigantic cockpit. If the 20cat misses, take advantage of this costly mistake.

Splatcat: Limited range, very hot, ammo expends quickly. Big weapon pods are easy to target.
Analysis: Even at 271 meters the splatcat is completely harmless. Prioritize arms for targeting, removing even one missile pack hampers damage output by a large amount.

Laser Hunch: Hot build, Hunchback brawlers are easy to hit.
Analysis: When fired at, spread laser damage around by torso twisting. Right torso should be priority target. After one or two alphas the hunchback will have to fall back on to single fire, or they will shut down.

PPC Stalker: Limited torso twist, Very hot build, Usually slow
Analysis: Stay out of their torso arc, and close to within 90meters. Once they fire they have a considerable cool down time or they will shutdown. Always test their leg armor, most ppc stalker pilots lower leg armor.

LRM boats: LRM's are easy to evade, require a spotter. ECM makes it difficult to use. Relatively low damage even if boated. Lot of heatsinks and ammo required.
Analysis: Move cover to cover taking potshots as you go. Getting close means LRM's won't arm. Any limb you knock off could trigger an ammo explosion so focus your fire on one part at a time.

[Zolaz]

I suggest you play and play and play, till you find a style that puts you on the top of the charts.
You could read the forums and find the common builds for the mechs you play. You could stay after you die and see other more successful builds.

Or I suppose you could cry on the forums to make the game easier. Your choice.

[RedMercury]

Problem is the maps. Each and every map has a mixture of long range and short range domains and enough cover to make use of each. That way, on any map, any specialized mech can find a role. If maps had only long range or only short range (but there may be different maps with different attributes), people would be much more careful about running a short range only or long range only design, because some of the time they would be screwed. This reflects "real" battletech combat: armies don't usually know what kind of battlefields they must fight on, so they take jack of all trades to reduce the risk.

[Loxx]

Apoc1138, on 15 February 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

erm... you've actually agreed with me... the apache is primarily designed to be an anti tank helicopter gunship... however it ALSO carries other weapons, all the time, because it's more cost effective and mission critical to carry more than one weapon type for when it frequently meets non-tank enemy units (it can also carry sidewinders if enemy aircraft are expected in theatre by the way)... if it were purely a tank killer then they wouldn't be using them in Afghanistan would they

every picture I can find of an AH in Afghanistan shows it not only carrying Hydras, but in fact NOT carrying hellfires, and often ONLY carrying Hydras, so you might want to check your facts before spouting at someone that you know more about mil-kit than they do

I never said the M3 was a tank killer, I said it has multiple weapon types for engaging multiple enemy types

all you've done is repeat exactly what I said but telling me I'm wrong in saying what I said, in response to someone who said that "BT mech loadouts make no sense because real world military vehicles never have multi capability packages"

many (but not all) Mechs are designed primarily to tackle other mechs, under a wide range of circumstances, their weapons are also designed and capable of engaging at mulitple ranges and enemy types... is this the "best" thing for MWO where it's easy to restrict the ranges and enemy types? no... but that's not what I responded to

tl:dr, someone said BT loadouts make no sense because real mi-kit only has 1 weapon type, I listed 2 pieces of mil-kit that often or always carry more than 1 weapon type, and you jumped all over me telling me I'm wrong, but actually listing multiple weapon types on the vehicles I highlighted (so infact repeating what I said yet telling me I was wrong in saying exactly those same things)

Still apples and oranges - combined arms warfare to single platform warfare. There's no reason to carry multi-purpose weapons platforms in this game. You're only killing mechs. At what range, is up to you. Just because you see a light mech doesn't mean you're going to engage it with smaller weapons because it's cost effective. No - you're going to blast the snot out of it with everything you have. Combine this with the doubling up of armor values away from tabletop and it makes zero sense generalize your weapon systems.

There are two combat types: Brawler or sniper. Trying to combine them isn't effective as a true-to-role mech. The load outs that PGI are putting in game (machine guns, flamers etc) are superfluous. The only reason they are doing so is because they are being true to the lore load outs of tabletop.

You can "question" my knowledge of 21 years of retired US Army service which includes combat tours in Afghanistan Iraq, Desert Storm, and Panama as a forward Observer all you want with your pictures and wiki searches. I'll stick to what I've actually seen and called in on real battlefields.

The "pictures of Apaches" you see carrying Hydras in Afghanistan, IS their secondary role. It's just stupid, given the terrain, to leave an air asset on the pad when it can be adding to your combat effectiveness. Furthermore, Artillery assets can't range some of the more remote locations.

However, Modern Apaches can't carry sidewinders. It was tried in the 80's along with stingers but the fact of the matter is they just couldn't get them to work right due to the infra-red targeting method/range detection so they moved away from them.

[Apoc1138]

Loxx, on 15 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Still apples and oranges - combined arms warfare to single platform warfare. There's no reason to carry multi-purpose weapons platforms in this game. You're only killing mechs. At what range, is up to you. Just because you see a light mech doesn't mean you're going to engage it with smaller weapons because it's cost effective. No - you're going to blast the snot out of it with everything you have. Combine this with the doubling up of armor values away from tabletop and it makes zero sense generalize your weapon systems.

you're still not reading what I actually wrote, or what the person I responded to wrote

I am in no way arguing that specialised builds are not more efficient at killing mechs than stock variants

the person I quoted said that stock variants make no sense in the BT universe at all ever BECAUSE real world military kit never has combined arms capabilities... ALL that I said was that BT universe DOES have combined arms capabilities as does the real world, which is exaclty what you are saying too... we agree on this point, but you keep making the same point and then calling me a liar for making the same point

although... I do run mixed capability mechs... I have medium lasers for tackling light mechs, no point in using UAC5's on them... I run medium lasers on my missile boats and I run streak 2's on my brawler mechs...

for me personally, I'm far more effective using different weapons on the same mech against the targets they are effective against, rather than boating a single weapon type and being a one trick pony

Edited by Apoc1138, 15 February 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I'm really coming to the conclusion that this game would benefit immensely from lobbies where people could make specific game types.

Combine that with Community Warfare for an over-arcing story and this game could explode.

There are just way too many different styles of play clashing at this point and creating a bad experience for a lot of people.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 15 February 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[MischiefSC]

There are a couple of issues that drive it.

Pinpoint accuracy out to a weapons maximum range allow you to deliver multiple shots of the same weapon type on target together for a hitloc popping alpha strike.

Lack of any consequence for dying. It doesn't matter if you are set up to exploit only one tactical situation because if you're jumped and killed it costs you absolutely nothing save a bit less money and 2 or 3 minutes of play time - if you run different mechs all the time, not even that. You don't NEED a backup plan. You just play to take advantage of your wins and blow off the losses.

Small maps. I can drop an AC20 round onto someone, possibly even the hitloc of my choice, at ~500m - that's most the range on any map. LLs, 600 or 700m pretty comfortably. There's terribly little benefit to long range weapons since almost all combat takes place within a viable range of almost all weapons save the shortest range ones.