112 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

The fail is strong with your post.
Archer
Hunchback
Urbanmech

Those are three specialists right off the top of my tongue from lore. Most of the mixed build mechs in tabletop sucked, and sucked hard. Please play Mechwarrior Tactics. You can play tabletop and complain about the rules there and your bitching might make sense. Because for a first person shooter, you maker ZERO sense.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Rhent, on 15 February 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Urbanmech

Those are three specialists right off the top of my tongue from lore. Most of the mixed build mechs in tabletop sucked, and sucked hard. Please play Mechwarrior Tactics. You can play tabletop and complain about the rules there and your bitching might make sense. Because for a first person shooter, you maker ZERO sense.

As opposed to the Urbanmech, which isn't noted for being a huge joke and one of the most worthless mechs in Battletech or anything.

[Wales Grey]

Zharot, on 15 February 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

As opposed to the Urbanmech, which isn't noted for being a huge joke and one of the most worthless mechs in Battletech or anything.

It's a great mech! Dirt cheap, and you can plug a bunch of houses into it for power to boot. It's also easy to maintain and...

Oh, you meant fighting. Yeah, Urbanmech is kind of a trash mob outside it's designated environment: specially designed Capellean cities. And numbers, can't forget that either.

[Zordicron]

Lukoi, on 15 February 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

My recommendation to all of the naysayers and canon-keepers....develop a lore for MWO based on OUR actions in game and stop worrying if someone deviated from canon-TRO and took an extra laser to replace their LRM5 (especially since many of the TRO entries were obviously just written and never playtested anyway, as their builds actively contradict their TRO descriptions...something that's been pointed out numerous times by others on this forum already). Its our MW universe to write the story of, so let us write the story.

OP, I realize you're not the one complaining but this thread has plenty of it and we always go down this road when someone brings up min/max or canon-variants on the forums as if they're somehow sancrosanct and untouchable for immersion's sake.

Write some lore based on an MMO you say? It would be more realistic?

Lauren approached the smoking heap that was the Centurian she had just been sparring with. That mechwarrior had some guts, taking on her Atlas alone.
The fight had started abruptly. Lauren was making a routine check in with the forward base when the Centurian powered up to her right from under a well made camo foxhole. He got the first shots in, stripping a fair bit of armor from the right arm of her Atlas. The smell of burnt armor and munitions smoke was still fresh in her nostrils.
That would be the last time her opponent had the upper hand in the fight. While the Centurian had speed on her big Atlas, Lauren had experience in solo sparring. She turned her mech to face her foe, but instead of chasing the Centurian into the open field he was crossing now, she backed towards the dense woods she had emerged from when she stopped to make that check in.
Try as he might, the Centurian was not going to be able to flank her Atlas. It was only a matter of time after that. Lauren simply concentrated her fire on the Centurian's legs. After a few volleys of SRM fire, she saw the exposed frame. With one well placed LL blast, the Centurian's speed was cut to almost nothing.
Now she put her Atlas into full forward. The Centurian had turned, trying to get behind the hill nearby for cover. There would be no escape. Lauren took a few more hits from the Centurian, but big Al just shrugged them off. Pinpointing the engines of her foe was childs play now that her prey was virtually immobilized. Two volleys from her LL and 3 ML and it was over.
Lauren looked over the heap. No escape pod ejection. Perhaps there would be a live pilot for interrogation. But first...
Lauren positioned her big Atlas. Crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand.
Lauren gloated over her mechs loudspeaker before she called forward base for a salvage team,"Lrn 2 play, n00b."

[Wales Grey]

Eldagore, on 15 February 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Lauren positioned her big Atlas. Crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand-crouch-stand.
Lauren gloated over her mechs loudspeaker before she called forward base for a salvage team,"Lrn 2 play, n00b."

Crouching in an Atlas is actually quite hard, iirc. Battlemechs ain't exactly gundams.

[xX_Nero_Xx]

this is what team play is all about if you have fire support mechs in the back dedicated to that roll then you have dedicated brawlers then you have mix to fill in the gap boats have and all ways will be apart of mechwarrior games its the the teams ability to play well and mix skills that set them apart from winners and losers

[Snowblack]

THX Rhent. I finnaly found what I wanted to make of this post.

2 mechs Urbanmech and lets say Razorback

Uranmech is a pro city fighter in close quaters and confined space. It can kill bigger targets in its territory. Like a shark in the water. But get it out in to the open and it suks! LIke the little fish cripling about on dry land.

Razorback while may perform poorly compared to Urby in closed space it can outperform Urbi in a lot of other situations.

So urbi wins in closed space or in an ambush fight but Razo beats in poosible other situations.

Take a Lance of 4 mech Urbies into a city and u can take out bigger lances with good pilots. But the same lance will be usless in Caustic walley.

But take 2 lances 1 Urbi lance and 1 lance to cover their long range weakness and it becoms a great ambush team.

I tried boating a few things too. LRM for example but it really suks when jenner circle u and u cant do nothing. I hate it so a dont prefer boating stuff. I hate it when im helpless. Or with my Yenlo with ac20 and mls And om in castic walley and cant do nothing because lrm boats and ppc botas all around me.

This post was never about which is better boating or balanced. This was about that I miss the balanced setups because boating becoms mainstream these days.

Nowdays it like: Catapult LRM or SRM boat? ....Catapracht Acboat my favorit is the Atlas LRm boat. It funny lots of armor and a 100 sieg breaker sitting behind line and spannig LRMs. Funny and awkward. No hate for these desings thou except the SSRM2 cat.

Edited by Snowblack, 16 February 2013 - 12:24 AM.

[ArmandTulsen]

AS7-D

After numerous builds, I've settled on this one as the best all-arounder:

Gauss w/ CASE and 3 tons ammo.
4 ML
20 LRMS (15 + 5... saves one ton) w/ 4 tons ammo.
AMS w/ 1 ton ammo

300 standard engine
Standard armor values
19 DHS
Standard structure

This seems to do the job in all maps and in nearly all situations.

[Wales Grey]

I think this is a better generalist atlas

[Woska]

In the table top game the mix of weapons was much more important. You couldn't close to your prefered engagement range quite so reliably.

That has made specialized mechs more viable, the ability to choose your engagement distance to some degree. However, there are always trade offs. If you have only LRMs in your mech, a commando can kill you if he gets close. If you have only short range weapons, you run the risk of being mostly dead before you get a chance to shoot effectively.

So 'boats' are not needed, not over powered. They are simply one choice you can make in choosing your mech.

[Dr Killinger]

The stock loadouts were never made with combat in mind. They were made as balanced machines with quirks and nice sentiments, not to be stripped down and built from the bottom up again by players.

[Walk]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

The big difference is the fact that one is written to be realistic, and the other is game. In canon, the mechs have to be able to deal with any situation because EVERY situation is their last one. If in canon you lose your mechs, your in deep ******* ****. Its not just "oh well, better load up next match". Your mech or your career, if not your life, would effectively have ended. In game if a scenario doesn't go well and you end up losing, you just play the next game.

Also, by specializing mechs, you get a whole **** ton more firepower at a given range. As long as a) you are good enough to force fights at this range and your enemies are bad enough to allow you to force fights at your chosen range, the min-maxed build will always be better. In the end, it all ends up coming down to personal preference and individual skill. If you are good enough to be able to recognize someone with a specialized mech and force them to stay at a range where they are suboptimal, you will win. However, if they play in a way so that you are forced within their specialized kill zone, you are going to get torn apart with ease. It's all about playing your strengths, and exploiting your enemies weaknesses.

Personally, I prefer very specialized builds. I run my 6 ML Jenner and my 9ML Hunchback and do extremely well because I am good at using my highly concentrated, accurate burst damage to inflict maximum damage to an enemy(I usually come from behind . However, this is because it suits my playstyle, I have always been extremely good at forcing engagements in my favor, regardless of what game I am playing, so I have always and always will use specialized builds or playstyles. Others might not be so good at determining when they are at an advantage and should engage, so might be used to being engaged upon themselves. For these players, they would do far better with a generalized build that can be effective at any range or in any situation.

[Hellen Wheels]

Apoc1138, on 15 February 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

My Atlases tend to go with something along the line of;

2 large lasers - good at range and in close (though higher heat per damage than say 4 mediums)
2 UAC5's (again, good at longish range, great up close as well)
2-3 SSRM2's / SRM6's - dedicated short range punch / light mech counter

seems pretty balanced to me in terms of ranges and abilities

Ya, that's like my Atlas w/

2x ER LL
3x SRM4
2x AC5

I think its a fun mech, maybe not the best, but its fun.

Edited by Hellen Wheels, 16 February 2013 - 01:01 PM.

[ArmandTulsen]

Wales Grey, on 16 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I think this is a better generalist atlas

I'm gonna assume that's a joke. That Atlas is a brawler with most of its firepower useless at med range. The Gauss rifle is as useful at 600m as it as at 20.

[Vassago Rain]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

Lore isn't PvP combat.
Also in lore, you can kill 8 wasps with a single atlas.

[xhrit]

arkani, on 15 February 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

As a hint, you will see that some battles rage for hours, with both sides trading blows, until now i have yet to find a game that lasted more than 10 minutes. And usually when the battles begins its a matter of minutes to have 8 mechs blown to pieces.

Except when there was R&R and high XL repairs - then everyone played turtle in base and half the matches ran the timer out. Which is exactly what would happen if not only you had to pay for R&R, but you don't get to keep your mech if it is destroyed.

Edited by xhrit, 16 February 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

The modern military issues it's run-of-the-mill grunt with an assault rifle with a few attachments like a specialized optic or a grenade launcher. The assault rifle: it's a weapon that doesn't perform as well as a handgun, SMG, or shotgun in door-to-door combat, nor does it back the accuracy or lethality of a large battle rifle at range. But it does, however, perform OK when kicking in doors, and it does perform OK when shooting at targets 400-600 meters out. So now one soldier has the ability to engage multiple ranges with decent flexibility, and then multiply that by 12 men to a squad and 3 squads to a platoon. Every military has their specializations, but those are an exception. Not the rule.

Why would a military a thousand years into the future discard an efficient model?

[Lukoi Banacek]

JohanssenJr, on 16 February 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

The modern military issues it's run-of-the-mill grunt with an assault rifle with a few attachments like a specialized optic or a grenade launcher. The assault rifle: it's a weapon that doesn't perform as well as a handgun, SMG, or shotgun in door-to-door combat, nor does it back the accuracy or lethality of a large battle rifle at range. But it does, however, perform OK when kicking in doors, and it does perform OK when shooting at targets 400-600 meters out. So now one soldier has the ability to engage multiple ranges with decent flexibility, and then multiply that by 12 men to a squad and 3 squads to a platoon. Every military has their specializations, but those are an exception. Not the rule.

Why would a military a thousand years into the future discard an efficient model?

So my 5 LL Phract is good even though it's a min/max build as it's good at most ranges right? Thanks, figured as much

[Vilheim]

I'm personally much more of a well-rounded pilot, preferring to be able to engage at all ranges. For example my Cataphract 2X has 1 ER PPC, 1 Gauss rifle, and 1 SRM6. The PPC allows me to fire indefinitely at long range, and at mid-long range the Gauss joins in symphony. If I get into a tight corner or a brawl, the SRM 6 comes in mighty handy.

If you put me in a duel under 270 m with a splatcat, then I'm sure to die. But that rarely happens to me as I try to choose positions which will allow me to deal the first punch (or two or three) before the dedicated brawler is on top of me. And that makes all the difference.

[Lukoi Banacek]

JohanssenJr, on 16 February 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

The modern military issues it's run-of-the-mill grunt with an assault rifle with a few attachments like a specialized optic or a grenade launcher. The assault rifle: it's a weapon that doesn't perform as well as a handgun, SMG, or shotgun in door-to-door combat, nor does it back the accuracy or lethality of a large battle rifle at range. But it does, however, perform OK when kicking in doors, and it does perform OK when shooting at targets 400-600 meters out. So now one soldier has the ability to engage multiple ranges with decent flexibility, and then multiply that by 12 men to a squad and 3 squads to a platoon. Every military has their specializations, but those are an exception. Not the rule.

Why would a military a thousand years into the future discard an efficient model?

p.s. your analogy here is too narrow in focus to be a fair one.

A rifle platoon in the 82nd Airborne Division for example, has 39 personnel but several are specialists with their flexibility compromised by the weapon systems they carry and roles they are responsible - M240B Machine gun teams are not going to go door to door at all in the manner in which you imply and in fact are not going to typically run and gun at all (all movie and video game references aside). M203 grenadiers also are not well suited for many portions of basic squad level tactics due to the weight and balance of the M4 with grenade launcher attached (or if the grenadier is using the M320, our newest underslung grenade launcher). Squad Designated Marksmen utilizing the M14 derivative M39 EBR are also not going to excel at the close and quick fight. Within one platoon that's 8 personnel, not including the RTO usually carrying two ASIP radios (cuz one is just too light lol). M249 SAW gunners use modified barrels and compression stock systems to allow for greater mobility in close quarters situations but at a cost to their ability to lay down accurate suppression at long ranges for their respective fire teams in many cases. Add that all up, and based on the task organization of that particular unit (depending on if they are working towards a Full spectrum operations mission or a COIN-centric mission) and it's at least 25% of that platoon's personnel are not "jacks of all trades" and the % can be significantly higher.

Point being the exception is much more common than you give it credence and a rifle platoon is a combined arms capable platform that fights as a unit (when you consider the enablers, such as FO, medic, etc). Comparing it to a Mech is off-base imo, simple because it's the sum of a great many disparate parts and the Mech is one platform.

A more apt comparison would be the lance/star -- in which disparate roles can be balanced by the various mechs within it. An 8-man of just min-maxed Splatcats, 6-spark Stalkers, Gausscats or Pop-sniping Phracts (to name just a few of the current super optimized builds) would get ***** in competitive play almost every time simply due to the one trick pony nature of those builds.

But a mixed 8-man of containing some or all of those builds can be extremely effective in truly competitive matches.