71 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Solis Obscuri, on 18 February 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

When are we getting C3 computers, anyway? They're in the timeline, but I've yet to see anything on them in a devblog or the command chair.

Thought it was what we already get with target sharing and communications? Isnt that what that c3 in game comms thing is supposed to simulate?
But thats impossible cause if in game coms cut out with ecm then theyll just use teamspeak which wont.
then will ts become an exploit??? roflmao
(this whole thing is sarcastic by the way)

[Rashhaverak]

Red squirrel, on 18 February 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

At least the topic gets some attention this way.
And since the community is still waiting for an answer from the devs why not hold the flame of "ECM is broken" high so that all can see it may the flame begin...

That's not really accurate. The devs have answered this question, most recently in the "ask the devs 30 answers". The answer might not have been the answer some people wanted, but it was an answer none-the-less. The answer was, "There are a lot of personal opinions about how ECM should work. ECM is currently under review and will undergo minor tweaks along with additions to help counter/disrupt the ECM effects."

Just because it's not the answer you might have given doesn't mean it isn't an answer. But by all means, keep asking the question anyways.

Edited by Rashhaverak, 18 February 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[DocBach]

Red squirrel, on 18 February 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

1) A Streak SRM and NARC counter with reduced target information for the enemy on short range plus interrupted C3 target sharing

This is pretty much exactly how it's suppose to function, minus the blocking of Streak missiles.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 18 February 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Thought it was what we already get with target sharing and communications? Isnt that what that c3 in game comms thing is supposed to simulate?
But thats impossible cause if in game coms cut out with ecm then theyll just use teamspeak which wont.
then will ts become an exploit??? roflmao
(this whole thing is sarcastic by the way)

The book TechManual describes that all 'Mechs can share target information without C3 -- a C3 system would go above and beyond what we have now. Right now when you target a 'Mech, that's the only information your team mates receive, even if you have five other enemies on radar. Teammates can only target what other teammates are targeting. Implementation of C3 would allow you to target what your other teammates detect on radar.

Edited by DocBach, 18 February 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Kousagi]

cdlord, on 18 February 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Right now ECM does the job of three pieces of equipment: Guardian EMC, Angel ECM, and Null Signature (you can find these on sarna.net). Currently ECM weighs in at 1.5 tons and 2 crits. Sarna does not list weights or sizes for the others so I use what is available as a guide.

If you do not know anything about TT, do not bring up TT. Guardian does NOT.. I repeat NOT do the job of Null sig. They both have the same effects in TT with a level 3 rule called double blind, which is the rule set for sensor detection. Now Guardian does pick up a single rule from Angel, but its not as powerful as a Angel suite. Also, We lose a few rules from TT to MWO as well....

That being said, Do not use TT as a reason to change or not to change something. TT is used as a base line for balance then they modify it as needed...

[DocBach]

Kousagi, on 18 February 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

That being said, Do not use TT as a reason to change or not to change something. TT is used as a base line for balance then they modify it as needed...

I say use TT's electronic warfare as a base line, starting with enhancing the Beagle and Narc to actually do what they are suppose to do.

By the way, went to the Classic Battletech forums and asked the writers what they meant about that rule we disagreed over saying you had to be within the radius of the Guardian ECM to disrupt sensors. I asked:

"For clarifications sake, though, can anybody tell me if the line "to be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM... LOS does not affect this radius," means ECM interference with sensor spotting rules on page 224 requires the spotting unit has to be within the 180 meter ECM bubble projected by the Guardian to be affected by ECM, or does any line of sight crossing in to it get countered by the ECM, like how ECM defeats attacks augmented by Artemis that cross through the bubble?"

They said:

"In order for ECM to have an effect in Doubleblind rules, the affected unit must be within the ECM's bubble. It is not sufficient for an ECM bubble to be in line of sight.

Note that the updated Ghost Target rules can provide for a de-facto screening operation with ECM suites.
You can find more here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,18161.msg603814.html#msg603814"

So pretty much, the rules governing ECM say that outside of 180 meters a target is able to be targeted and tracked, but the scanning rules say that the target's identity is concealed, which could be implemented in MWO as disguising the chassis type, damage and loadout information from a targeting 'Mech. When you close into the 180 meter bubble, there is a high chance that your standard sensors will be confused and unable to lock, in which case you should be able to use other scanners (which have been announced to be released in the future as modules) to track an ECM protected enemy.

A third mode, Ghost Target mode (which the Battletech developers linked their most recent rules to), should be implemented to provide a screen against LRM's/Streaks and what not, but shouldn't provide a hard counter against them (ie lock invulnerability) for the sake of game balance. It could be implemented in several ways, the easiest to provide the lock time increase that ECM currently gives without having to be in Ghost Target mode.

A more complex way to implement Ghost Targets would be for fake targets to appear on the enemy's minimaps, that are targetable that the enemy would have to cycle through to find a valid target. Like the source material describes, Beagle could help see through the ghost targets, making Beagle useful against that mode of ECM.

Edited by DocBach, 18 February 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Deamhan]

It'll continue to be beaten until the Dev's get a ******* clue.

[Hekalite]

Rashhaverak, on 18 February 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

That's not really accurate. The devs have answered this question, most recently in the "ask the devs 30 answers". The answer might not have been the answer some people wanted, but it was an answer none-the-less. The answer was, "There are a lot of personal opinions about how ECM should work. ECM is currently under review and will undergo minor tweaks along with additions to help counter/disrupt the ECM effects."

Just because it's not the answer you might have given doesn't mean it isn't an answer. But by all means, keep asking the question anyways.

Everything is always "under review." I'm sure if I dug around long enough I could find a quote to support that. The developers are free to continue to just not talk about it, and unsticky the ECM feedback threads in the each patch feedback section, but there are consequences to every choice. We are currently witnessing one such consequence: a never ending supply of ECM complaint threads.

[Umbra8]

Rashhaverak, on 18 February 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

That's not really accurate. The devs have answered this question, most recently in the "ask the devs 30 answers". The answer might not have been the answer some people wanted, but it was an answer none-the-less. The answer was, "There are a lot of personal opinions about how ECM should work. ECM is currently under review and will undergo minor tweaks along with additions to help counter/disrupt the ECM effects."

Just because it's not the answer you might have given doesn't mean it isn't an answer. But by all means, keep asking the question anyways.

Actually, let me put their response here in its entirety from 'Ask the Devs':


Q: [insert question about ECM]
A: There are a lot of personal opinions about how ECM should work. ECM is currently under review and will undergo minor tweaks along with additions to help counter/disrupt the ECM effects. We are prepping a Command Chair post with details soon.

I have yet to see any Command Chair post outlining their approach to ECM or their position on it's current power level or their review process. PGI's idea of an answer is to give lip service followed by... nothing? Much of the fervor over ECM (as well as PGI's poor communication with the community on the issue) was assuaged by this answer in Ask the Devs with the good faith that more information would be forthcoming. Given that none seems to have materialized (unless they were referring to the upcoming PPC ability, which would do so little to address the concerns voiced in the three months of ECM feeback pages as to be meaningless) then I see no reason not to raise the issue again and again until it is adequately addressed. That horse is going to be beaten until it is not only dead, but ground into dog food, because this is an issue that is not going to go away.

Edited by Umbra8, 18 February 2013 - 06:18 PM.

[Mackman]

Heck: You could even leave it on the mechs it's already on, but just make it so that ECM makes it so you can't fire missiles.

"The powerful electronic countermeasures, while targeted towards enemy mechs, are simply too powerful to allow the mech carrying the ECM to use missiles. " or something like that.

Yeah? It would make a whole lotta sense, as well as eliminating the problem of ECM Streak Mechs eating all the other lights alive.

[Davers]

Other than ECM having the abilities of other pieces of upcoming equipment (What will Angel ECM do now?) I really don't get all the hate. While I usually use direct fire builds, I have to say that I really haven't had any problems running LRMs thanks to TAG. Do people just love SSRMs so much?

[DocBach]

I don't think the missile blocking is a bad as the fact that it completely denies all information of an enemy force, and cripples team work, especially for casual players not speaking over 3rd party VOIP. To have a piece of equipment cause that much pandemonium for casual or new players is a great way to cull people from your game.

[Eddrick]

Davers, on 18 February 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

What will Angel ECM do now?

Angle ECM Suite has a bigger bubble. 240m instead of 180m. Also, blocks Bloodhound Active Probe, unlike Guardian ECM Suite. Not sure of any other thinks it would do.

[Davers]

DocBach, on 18 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

I don't think the missile blocking is a bad as the fact that it completely denies all information of an enemy force, and cripples team work, especially for casual players not speaking over 3rd party VOIP. To have a piece of equipment cause that much pandemonium for casual or new players is a great way to cull people from your game.

So when C3 is finally implemented that will solve all the ECM problems? Shouldn't there be more 'Work on C3' threads then instead of more 'Fix ECM' threads?

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

wow!

I see a pattern around these parts. More so than any other game iv played.
The long time players want what they have powered up and what they dont like nerfed. If they dont run it and it kills them its got to be nerfed. If 7 guys can lobb everything BUT missiles at the last standing mech with a ecm its OP! So you STEAM ROLLED every one but the ECM then the ecm is way 2 op... lets not mention no one has ever said why the ecm is OP just that it is. You know because some mech cant even equip missiles nor should any mech have only have one type of weapon and no backup! If your running 6 srm6 and no lasers...well... no you can not nerf ecm!

[DocBach]

Davers, on 18 February 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

So when C3 is finally implemented that will solve all the ECM problems? Shouldn't there be more 'Work on C3' threads then instead of more 'Fix ECM' threads?

It'll be less potent then, unless they extend ECM's ability to counter the C3 VOIP as the ECM blocks C3 in the rules.

The fact that a 1.5 ton piece of equipment can negate any LRM system of a stock 'Mech that a new player may find themself piloting is still a pretty overpowered feature. Imagine if the STK-3H Stalker was the trial assault for the month, with its twin LRM-20's and inability to use TAG for itself? How would that make you feel as a new player to find out your main weapon system (20 tons of missiles) is made useless by one suite that weighs 1.5 tons?

[Davers]

DocBach, on 18 February 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

It'll be less potent then, unless they extend ECM's ability to counter the C3 VOIP as the ECM blocks C3 in the rules.

The fact that a 1.5 ton piece of equipment can negate any LRM system of a stock 'Mech that a new player may find themself piloting is still a pretty overpowered feature. Imagine if the STK-3H Stalker was the trial assault for the month, with its twin LRM-20's and inability to use TAG for itself? How would that make you feel as a new player to find out your main weapon system (20 tons of missiles) is made useless by one suite that weighs 1.5 tons?

Well there is the 'Disable Comms' module...

It's true that that would really suck for the Stalker pilot. Worse if it was a stock A1 Catapult as a trial mech. But what can we say about stock mechs? Few of them are even close to viable in MWO.

[DocBach]

Davers, on 18 February 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Well there is the 'Disable Comms' module...

It's true that that would really suck for the Stalker pilot. Worse if it was a stock A1 Catapult as a trial mech. But what can we say about stock mechs? Few of them are even close to viable in MWO.

If you decided to learn how to play when you had 'Mechs with LRM's as your choices with ECM as currently included in the game, do you think you'd be inclined to "stick with" the game until you could afford your own 'Mech, or say "hey this game is incredibly frustrating, for some reason all the weapons they gave me don't work, **** this!"

I know all the people I tried to introduce to the game and guide them through decided they didn't want to play after about a week. It was only 20 or so players, but out of them, 0 still play this. And that was when they had the choice of 'Mechs that still had secondary weapons besides LRM's (STK-3F, CN9-D). The fact that they were completely taken by surprise by cloaked ECM 'Mechs, and couldn't use their weapon systems they were stuck with, was enough to make them think they'd have more fun playing other games.

Edited by DocBach, 18 February 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[Davers]

DocBach, on 18 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

If you decided to learn how to play when you had 'Mechs with LRM's as your choices with ECM as currently included in the game, do you think you'd be inclined to "stick with" the game until you could afford your own 'Mech, or say "hey this game is incredibly frustrating, for some reason all the weapons they gave me don't work, **** this!"

I know all the people I tried to introduce to the game and guide them through decided they didn't want to play after about a week. It was only 20 or so players, but out of them, 0 still play this. And that was when they had the choice of 'Mechs that still had secondary weapons besides LRM's (STK-3F, CN9-D). The fact that they were completely taken by surprise by cloaked ECM 'Mechs, and couldn't use their weapon systems they were stuck with, was enough to make them think they'd have more fun playing other games.

Hopefully with Elo we won't see trial mechs being set against experienced custom mechs.

So the 'ECM is broken' argument basically comes down to 1. ECM is bad for trial mechs and 2. ECM is bad because C3 is not implemented. Sound right?

[DocBach]

Davers, on 18 February 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Hopefully with Elo we won't see trial mechs being set against experienced custom mechs.

So the 'ECM is broken' argument basically comes down to 1. ECM is bad for trial mechs and 2. ECM is bad because C3 is not implemented. Sound right?

Also, ECM negates equipment that weigh several times its own weight, provides a complete stealth screen for an entire team, has homogenized the gameplay experience by requiring all builds and tactics revolve around it, homogenized the variants of 'Mechs we see in the game as the majority of players flock to one of the few ECM capable chassis, is unavailable to new players, has much more function than in the source material, the equipment it is made to counter like Beagle and Narc do much less of what they are suppose to do in the source material, it has no counter besides more of itself, and the modules they introduced to "counter" ECM cost not only c-bills, but a completely different currency that ECM itself does not require in the form of GXP, which is acquired at a much slower rate than C-bills, or by paying real currency.

I personally don't have much of a problem fighting ECM enemies. I don't use LRM's, or Streak missiles -- I however can see how poorly balanced this piece of equipment is, and your statement of ECM being bad for trial 'Mechs should actually be "ECM is bad for new players, stuck in trial 'Mechs." If you haven't noticed, the affect ECM has to new players stuck in trial 'Mechs has caused many to decide not to play the game anymore.

Edited by DocBach, 18 February 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[Davers]

DocBach, on 18 February 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Also, ECM negates equipment that weigh several times its weight, provides a complete stealth screen for an entire team, has homogenized the gameplay experience by requiring all builds and tactics revolve around it, homogenized the variants of 'Mechs we see in the game as the majority of players flock to one of the few ECM capable chassis, has no counter besides more of itself, and the modules they introduced to "counter" ECM cost not only c-bills, but a completely different currency that ECM itself does not require in the form of GXP, which is acquired at a much slower rate than C-bills, or by paying real currency.

I personally don't have much of a problem fighting ECM enemies. I don't use LRM's, or Streak missiles -- I however can see how poorly balanced this piece of equipment is, and your statement of ECM being bad for trial 'Mechs should actually be "ECM is bad for new players, stuck in trial 'Mechs." If you haven't noticed, the affect ECM has to new players stuck in trial 'Mechs has caused many to decide not to play the game anymore.

While you do have some good points, I really don't feel it has homogenized the mech selection as much as you think. I would argue that heavy mechs are probably the most fielded of all the classes, and none of them have ECM. The upcoming PPC EMP buff is totally designed for hurting the DDC, making more assault chassis more viable.

Honestly, if they kept ECM at a very basic level with modules allowing the 'game breaking' effects I don't think there would have been nearly as much outcry- and combined with matchmaking would keep ECM out of matches with players stuck in trial mechs.

I guess the problem is the Devs wanted a powerful game-changing piece of equipment, but that doesn't work as well in a system without 'tiered' equipment.