105 replies to this topic

[Kyle Polulak]

All Loadout/Mech Game Balance related posts will be merged into this thread for simplified reference and overview.

Please attempt to respond to the following questions in your responses:

• The weapon, upgrade, 'Mech, or variant affected.
  
• The specific stats of that loadout or 'Mech affected.
  
• A suggested change (increase/decrease) to the stats to improve balance.

[DocBach]

First and foremost, most excited to see if Narc actually performs the function it should to make it worth jamming out with an ECM. If we see boosts to Beagle, ECM might be worth taking even without a stealth field generator like it currently has.

Verdict will be out on how well PPC's counter ECM, especially with enhanced Narc capability, will comment more on that when I have some time behind the system.

Still, no major changes to ECM itself, which still means that most strategies (such as PPC countering) still revolve around this 1.5 ton, 2 critical piece of equipment.

[ExAstris]

New Patch, New Reminder: ECM is still out of line.

But as for actual weapon balance, I wrote this up regarding the last patch and made a few modifications to accomodate for the changes we got this patch, the other suggestions still stand.



MWO Weapon Balance suggestions from ExAstris: Patch 1.2.190.

Missile Weapons: Here we have a distinct lack of viability for models below the largest variants. The SRM6 and LRM15/20 dominate the scene, while the 2/4/5/10 are vestigial relics. Furthermore, AMS continues to only be useful against LRMs and LRMs only tend to be useful in boated swarms of 40-80. There are numerous changes I have in mind here that would help draw out the smaller models for use, while simultaneously giving AMS more use across the board.

AMS: Here is the first place I’m going to suggest changes, because without this, the other changes may be more problematic. Currently the AMS does nothing against missiles at point blank range, or even very short range. This makes it only really viable against LRMs, and at that only against the smaller swarms. So, two changes: Make the first bullet of every AMS volley insta-kill the first missile, then the rest of the AMS volley fires as normal expending a chain of ammo before the next missile is destroyed. This will let AMS be more effective against missiles fired at medium/close range (and just a smidge more effective against LRMs as it will get one more missile per group, but that should hardly be problematic when the average LRM grouping is 40+). Secondly, I consider AMS’s reaction time now to be its ‘normal’ reaction time, however, against targets you have locked with “r”, AMS’s reaction time should be instant. Even if the enemy mech is running into you while firing, the AMS should still be able to shoot down the first missile. This guarantees the AMS to have mitigating power against all missiles on the field, making it a more viable anti-missile mitigation tool all-around. This change will also be important given my suggestion for increasing the use of the underused missile launchers.

AMS: Downs first missile instantly + no reaction time against mechs targeted with “r”.

SRM 2, 4, 6: Currently, the SRM6 is the best weapon in the game. In fact, its total damage over time and heat efficiency may well be too good. Thus I recommend increasing its cooldown to 4.25 seconds. Its raw burst potential will still make it an extremely good weapon, but it will take just a little bit longer for it to blast mechs apart at point blank, making it not quite so far ahead of its brawler brethren in point-blank slugfests. This will put the SRM6’s dps at 3.53. Now the SRM2-4 though, are hugely underperforming. They currently have similar damage/ton, but take up one vital missile slot that could go to a tracking SSRM2 or the burst friend, higher dps SRM6. Given that the dps/ton and dps/heat is very similar across the entire SRM family, and the total weight/crit requirements for the largest versions are still fairly small, the SRM6 and SSRM2 are the only options anyone should take. Thus I recommend rate of fire increases to the SRM2 and 4. Specifically; a cooldown of 2 for the SRM2 and a cooldown of 3.25 for the SRM4 should work quite well. This will bring the dps of the entire family to 2.50, 3.08, and 3.53 for the 2, 4, and 6 respectively. Anyone wanting the maximum dps will still take the 6. Anyone wanting the raw burst potential will still take the 6. But, mechs in the light and medium weight classes will now have the option of freeing up a ton or two for a smaller SRM launcher that provides significantly better dps/ton, making them highly weight efficient. The drawback of course, is that they have to be aimed far more often while the SRM6 allows for careful occasional aiming, and defensive maneuvering between shots. Furthermore, with the AMS changes specified above, every volley will lose a missile to an enemy who has equipped AMS and has the attacker targeted. So, while these changes will significantly improve their dps, they will also be significantly easier to mitigate. Also, the heat efficiency will still be in favor of the SRM6, so while the 2 and 4 get better rates of fire, they will also be pushing their user’s heat up faster than the larger six-pack would. And on a final note, the SSRM2’s cooldown should stay where it is. Blame the launch time on needing to feed each missile’s tracking system with the target data. It’ll be a good excuse to have the SSRM4-6 have longer cooldowns than the regular SRM4-6 in the future when they’re implemented, giving us a forward looking balance decision now to minimize bumps in that transition.

SRM2: cooldown -> 2
SRM4: cooldown -> 3.25
SRM6: cooldown -> 4.25

LRM 5-15: Same story for these two guys, with one additional caveat. Reducing cooldown times makes these much more appealing to smaller machines that can’t afford 20-30 tons for 2-4 of the largest launchers. My suggested reload times are 2.25 seconds for the LRM5 and 3.25 seconds for the LRM10. This puts the dps of the 5/10/15/20 at 4.00, 5.54, 6.35, and 7.58 respectively. The one last caveat; up the LRM5’s heat to 3 from its current 2, so that the heat of the family from small to large runs 3, 4, 5, 6. This means that the largest launchers stay the same, and high tube-count boats remain the same. It also means that larger launchers trade crits and tonnage for heat efficiency and burst damage. The upshot is that mechs that want to do some LRM support and have an impact, but not dedicate most of their loadout to it can now do so. A pair of LRM5s will provide more dps than an LRM20 for far less tonnage and crits. But it will require 2 hardpoints instead of one, and will be vastly less heat efficient (over twice as much heat!). This level of heat generation is fine for a mech that only plans on supporting while at long range, then swaps to brawling weapons once in close, but the heat generation will be unacceptable on LRM heavy loads as the heat generation would be unmanageable with 4 launchers of any size due to crit limitations for larger launchers and the huge heat generation of smaller ones. And again, the smaller launchers would be streaming missiles every couple of seconds instead of piling them up in larger salvos, so smaller mechs can provide viable support firepower with smaller launchers, but AMS systems will chew through the vast majority of their support, while still not truly denting the brutality of 40+ launcher mechs. This makes LRMs a more viable weapon across all tonnages, not just the heavy/assault boats, while simultaneously ensuring the small launchers are not simply better, and leaving AMS room to properly counter LRMs should these huge boosts in performance for the 5 and 10 models lead to any proliferation as a pair of 5s can be almost, if not completely, negated by a single AMS. Much like the changes to SRMs, these will benefit light and medium mechs the most, but given the prolific number of heavy and assault mechs in the game after largely fixing the so-called lag shield, I think these changes are in order both because the game can physically accommodate it now, and because it will bring roles to all our missile options instead of dust-binning the smaller launchers entirely as they currently are.

LRM5: cooldown -> 2.25 and heat ->3
LRM10: cooldown ->3.25

Energy Weapons: Last balance pass on these was fantastic. None of the affected weapons seems out of line and all seem usable on the right mech. But there are a couple of stragglers that missed the pass.
The flamer and small pulse laser in particular. The flamer is a complicated beast since it messes with heat and may supposedly have some crit tweaks in the patch that overhauls the crit system. So I’m going to leave it alone as it will need to be balanced with an entire system in mind that we have no access to yet. Similarly, I think weapon hitpoints need to be looked at in several cases, but with the upcoming crit-overhaul this is being done anyways, so I’ll refrain from detailing cases where weapon health seems relevant given it will be adjusted soon anyways.

Small Pulse Laser: This guy is a direct competitor to the medium laser, not the small laser. It has precisely the same loading requirements as the medium laser, so it has to offer something worthwhile in comparison to it. The medium laser is the ubiquitous signature energy weapon of MWO, the go to default, so I don’t think we should make the splas significantly better than the mlas in any particular way. Thus I recommend reducing its cooldown to 2 seconds and reducing its heat to 2.5. This will make it 96% as heat efficient as the mlas and have 96% of its dps, but retain its firing duration advantage. The duration advantage is, currently, never worth it given the performance gap, but putting it this close will make the splas a viable option for mechs that plan on engaging small fast targets or are themselves fast and often have minimal windows to make shots in without sacrificing the full 20% heat efficiency and 25% dps as they currently must.

Small Pulse Laser: cooldown -> 2 and Heat -> 2.5

Ballistic Weapons: I have no major overhauls here, just a few minor underperformers. Well, besides machine guns, but we all know they are amazingly terrible. But since they are getting a damage buff, and are getting an overhaul with the new crit system, I’ll wait to see the changes in that pipeline before beating that horse more. Though a crit buff alone will not save them, they need to do damage to armor to be worth taking on anything with more than a randomly left over ballistic slot and several tons free (i.e. almost no good mech build). The last two minor tweaks I suggest are to underperforming ACs.

AC 5, 10: Both of these guys are just a bit outclassed by the UAC5 and AC20 respectively. The UAC trades consistency for potentially incredible performance, but even on its worst day, the UAC5 still tends to perform well enough to not justifying taking the regular AC5. So I would recommend just very slightly lowering the cooldown on the AC5 to 1.6. This will bring its dps up to 3.125 from 2.94, just a bit more incentive for the consistency. Similarly, the AC10 costs nearly 5/6s the AC20 in mounting costs, but gives only 4/5s the dps and has the disadvantage of spreading it out over twice as many rounds. If you’re going to need to aim that often at that range, you just take the UAC5, if you want the burst or raw dps, you take the 20. So I would suggest lowering the AC10’s cooldown to 2.25 from 2.5. This will increase its dps to 4.44, still 0.56 short of the 20, and still needing to use twice as many rounds for the same damage (meaning more aiming and less concentrated damage on average), but given the drop in performance will be more in line with its respectively small drop in mounting costs compared to the AC20.

AC5: cooldown ->1.6
AC10: cooldown ->2.25

Specialty: NARC has finally gotten one of the buffs we’ve all been waiting for, broadcasting enemy locations for the duration of the beacon. However, as a balance it now breaks with 35 damage. Furthermore, since it is still entirely nullified by ECM, I have trouble seeing this as being worth the weight yet, but it’s at least a move in the right direction. Need more testing to comment more.

[StalaggtIKE]

I like how the EMP effect was reduced by 1 second. Because 5 seconds would be too much of a bother for the ECM master race.

ExAstris, on 19 February 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Specialty: NARC has finally gotten one of the buffs we’ve all been waiting for, broadcasting enemy locations for the duration of the beacon.

Wow! I knew NARC was bad, but I assumed it already did this. This is considered a buff!? Creating a targetable beacon for your team was its sole purpose.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 19 February 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[TwigTech]

I've run a few games in my SDR-5k, and I'm finding that machine guns still are nowhere near effective enough. My maximum score was a measly 96 damage, of which my Med. Pulse Laser was primarily the damage-dealer. I didn't succeed in destroying any components, and out of 4 consecutive matches I only succeeded in critting an already crippled Raven's XL engine.

I don't know if this is a biased opinion, but I think Machine guns need to still need more.

[Cycleboy]

MGs aren't to remove the armor, they just shred the internals once the armor is gone. Yes, your ML has to open the hole for the MG rounds to work. MGs on armor = spitballs on brick wall.

[Nerf Harder]

Mechs affected: My whole team
Enemy loadout: 1 ECM
I do not consider this balanced.

[Sable Dove]

StalaggtIKE, on 19 February 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Wow! I knew NARC was bad, but I assumed it already did this. This is considered a buff!? Creating a targetable beacon for your team was its sole purpose.

Yeah, after reading the patch notes, I had to sit back and wonder what exactly NARC did do before now. I haven't tried it yet because I'm roughly 100% sure that it's still worthless, considering the fact that it's still completely countered by ECM. and has a ridiculously short duration still, plus, they nerfed it so that the effect also ends if the enemy takes too much damage. So, they buffed it in a way that improves the functionality in a way that is still completely invalidated by ECM, while also nerfing it.

Now, if they dropped the time limit altogether, and made it counter ECM, it might be worth taking; at least until they put rearm costs back in.

[ElLocoMarko]

TwigTech, on 19 February 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I've run a few games in my SDR-5k, and I'm finding that machine guns still are nowhere near effective enough. My maximum score was a measly 96 damage, of which my Med. Pulse Laser was primarily the damage-dealer. I didn't succeed in destroying any components, and out of 4 consecutive matches I only succeeded in critting an already crippled Raven's XL engine.

I don't know if this is a biased opinion, but I think Machine guns need to still need more.

(BIG EDIT)
Engine's still have no health value and only go away when the torso below it loses its internals, but that is beside the point. Let's do some math.

Patch Notes said:

- The Machine Gun has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the Machine Gun crits, it will deal 12.5x the amount of normal damage per bullet to an internal item.
- The Machine Gun crit damage is 12.5 x 0.04 = 0.5 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 1.5.
- Due to the rate of fire, the Machine Gun is now a heavy crit seeker and will be VERY effective vs. items on non-armoured locations.

So convert those single crits to DPS by multiplying by 10 (shots per second)...
75% chance of 0 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
14% chance of 5 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
8% chance of 10 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
3% chance of 15 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure


Expected DPS versus "internal items" is 0.75*0 + 0.14*5 + 0.08*10 + 0.03*15...
1.95 DPS of crit and 0.4 DPS to structure.
UNLESS a crit also multiplies against internal structure, but the notes are pretty clear to say "items" every time.

Single MG vs ammo (10 health), nothing else in location (at DPS of 1.95): 5.2 seconds
Single MG vs Raven side torso (16 health at DPS of 0.4): 40 seconds
Single MG vs new AC20 (18 health), nothing else in torso (at DPS of 1.95): 9.2 seconds

Would be nice if endo-steel was a critable item (according to user guide it isn't) and that multiplier was applied to the damage versus internal structure. That would knock down your Raven's side torso in 8.2 seconds instead of 40.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 19 February 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[Rumrunner2]

There was a time we had MWO "MissileWarOnline"
Next phase was "SniperWar"
Now we have "JumpSniperWar"

Thats not Mechwarrior thats just ******

[Kassatsu]

Whichever team has more jump jet snipers will win since the changes to jump jets. I'm seeing more and more people mounting dual ER PPCs and the like on jump jet equipped mechs and just sitting way back taking cheap shots at people from across the map.

Machine guns and flamers are also still useless. Saw a cicada with 4 MGs and an ER PPC firing on an armorless enemy cicada, used around 3 tons of ammo. Red torso was flashing non-stop but never destroyed, weapons and such were also never destroyed. Took an ER PPC to the CT to finally finish the enemy cicada off.

Thanks to the jump jet changes, the trebuchet outclasses every other medium. Non-jump jet equipped mechs are at a severe disadvantage, and the only things that can really counter them are either jump jet equipped mechs on your own team or certain light mechs. Seeing as how most lights wouldn't last more than a few seconds rushing straight through the enemy's line there's no real counter to this.

Edited by Kassatsu, 19 February 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[That Guy]

SSRMs are still broken as ****. these have only been the most complained about weapon system since, i dont know, October? and that little "fix" in December certainly made it worse. and ECM just makes them even worse.

there have been dozens if not hundreds of suggestions to fix the SSRM, please take a look at them

please can we have a dedicated dev post addressing this? like why they have done nothing these past few months? thank you

Edited by That Guy, 19 February 2013 - 03:22 PM.

[ElLocoMarko]

Kassatsu, on 19 February 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Whichever team has more jump jet snipers will win since the changes to jump jets. I'm seeing more and more people mounting dual ER PPCs and the like on jump jet equipped mechs and just sitting way back taking cheap shots at people from across the map.
...

We are going to have to put away our Atlas-D-DC until the novelty of the new PPC effects wear off. Everyone is going to mount them for a while. And ECM Atlai were PPC magents before this patch.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 19 February 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Kassatsu]

ElLocoMarko, on 19 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

We are going to have to put away our Atlas-D-DC until the novelty of the new PPC effects wear off. Everyone is going to mount them for a while. And ECM Atlai were PPC magents before this patch.

Not even because of the ECM hard counter added to them. They pop up over cover, fire off their ER PPCs and are behind it before you can even target them, let alone get a lock or fire back.

Matchmaking has also done a much better job of matching 1 premade per team since the update, but it's not guaranteed, nor is it where I feel it 'should' be. Some matches are ridiculously stacked for one side because of the fact it no longer force-matches weight classes so one team might end up with one trial light vs three ECM ravens.

Edited by Kassatsu, 19 February 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[arghmace]

ElLocoMarko, on 19 February 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

75% chance of 0 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
14% chance of 5 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
8% chance of 10 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
3% chance of 15 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure

Flamer, MG and LBX received 14, 8 and 3 percent _increase_ to their crit chance. Every weapon has chances of 25%, 14% and 3% for 1, 2, 3 crits.

So I suppose the new chances for these three weapons are now 39, 22 and 6 for a total of 67% chance of critting. I doubt a 3% increase means exactly that, which would make 3 critter just 3,09%. The increases are obviously percentual units (not sure if proper term in English), not percents.

Edited by arghmace, 19 February 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[ohtochooseaname]

ElLocoMarko, on 19 February 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

(BIG EDIT)
Engine's still have no health value and only go away when the torso below it loses its internals, but that is beside the point. Let's do some math.



So convert those single crits to DPS by multiplying by 10 (shots per second)...
75% chance of 0 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
14% chance of 5 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
8% chance of 10 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure
3% chance of 15 DPS crit, 0.4 DPS to internal structure


Expected DPS versus "internal items" is 0.75*0 + 0.14*5 + 0.08*10 + 0.03*15...
1.95 DPS of crit and 0.4 DPS to structure.
UNLESS a crit also multiplies against internal structure, but the notes are pretty clear to say "items" every time.

Single MG vs ammo (10 health), nothing else in location (at DPS of 1.95): 5.2 seconds
Single MG vs Raven side torso (16 health at DPS of 0.4): 40 seconds
Single MG vs new AC20 (18 health), nothing else in torso (at DPS of 1.95): 9.2 seconds

Would be nice if endo-steel was a critable item (according to user guide it isn't) and that multiplier was applied to the damage versus internal structure. That would knock down your Raven's side torso in 8.2 seconds instead of 40.

IMO, crits should damage internal structure once all components are gone.

[TwigTech]

Cycleboy, on 19 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

MGs aren't to remove the armor, they just shred the internals once the armor is gone. Yes, your ML has to open the hole for the MG rounds to work. MGs on armor = spitballs on brick wall.

I'm wholly aware of this, and was using the MGs only on exposed internals the entire time. I still did not succeed in critting anything of note.

Edited by TwigTech, 19 February 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[outofit08]

There seems to be a real increase in Head Dmg with the Cataphract mech. I have taken 3 head shots sense the new patch.
I have been playing for a few months and never died from head shots so either people magically became the greatest snipers on the planet over night or this patch just about ruined the Cataphracts abilities in any form of brawl.
Just take a look at it and make sure you didn't break something OK ??

[BVRCWolf]

Since the new patch I was in a map were the teams were 8 vs 5. Not a very fair split. Also they damage shown on mech seems to be on the wrong arm when looking in the cockpit. I had all my weapons gone from my left side but it showed my right side gone.

[BlueSanta]

Please just fix ECM instead of offering all these BS counters to it. Seriously, if you would just remove the ability for it to cut you off from the rest of your team, I think that would dramatically cut down on the amount of flack you receive about it. You know ECM is too powerful, as evidenced by all you've tried to do to affect it, but you've refused to touch the device itself except for decreasing its durability. Fix the problem itself!

And the fact that it isn't factored into the matchmaking system with the strength of that one piece of equipment is nonsense. I dropped against a team tonight with 3-4 ECM mechs. We were slaughtered. Max limit of one per lance, if not only one per team.