105 replies to this topic

[Jungle Rhino]

Narc.

Why?

Just why? Has anybody EVER used it? Artemis cancels out most of the benfit anyway??? It just doesn't make any sense and it is soooo heavy!

[Canine]

Game is now broken in favour of snipers and assaults+ ECM

pinpoint weapons need there damaged or accuracy reduced, something needs to happen as I'm taking a break until it's fixed.

See you in 2 weeks/1 month/however long it takes to make the game fun again. Please be soon i love this game

In response to NARC: NARC needs a massive buff, it should do the same as tag (totally cancels out ECM). It is supposed to be a beacon which redirects ALL missiles to the NARC'd target.

[Blandtastic]

Another thing is the lack of in-game economics. Ammo costs money, repairs costs money, dropships cost money. If you re-instate the economic costs, that would do a lot for self-correcting the problems that exist in the game right now. No more Leroy Jenkins rushers, no more missile spamming, no more short range exclusive builds. In the Battletech universe Mechwarriors are constantly aware of their resupply state and costs for doing anything. It should be that way in this game too. With the exception that if you are out of c-bills you are still able to drop. Just without reloads. Free repairs for people who are in the red, but no more reloads. Also, perhaps making matches that are three or five games long.

[Blandtastic]

Make the players that team kill pay for the repairs associated with the damage they do to their team's mechs. Might be nice to make team killers sit out one game for every team kill they do, deliberate or not. Same reason the military moved away from "Accidental discharges" to "Negligent discharges". Control your fires and be aware of the battlespace. Every time you pull that trigger you need to be aware that there are consequences for your rounds going downrange.

[Flapdrol]

Jungle Rhino, on 28 February 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

Narc.

Why?

Just why? Has anybody EVER used it? Artemis cancels out most of the benfit anyway??? It just doesn't make any sense and it is soooo heavy!

nobody uses it because it's not that useful to begin with and ECM counters it completely.

[Suzano]

Major Bug- or not?

2nd time for me that an SRM-Cata strips my Atlas instantly off all weapons with only 1 salvo. The effective damage was low (yellow armor). this sux.

[Homeless Bill]

SRMs do slightly too much damage. ECM is too powerful. Flamers are still useless. The 3L shouldn't be able to mount such a large engine (or be the best Raven in every single way). Otherwise, things are looking pretty good.

[WolvesX]

http://mwomercs.com/...y-way-approach/

Here is a link to a thread about fixing the balance the easy way (in some points).

[Koniving]

"A suggested change (increase/decrease) to the stats to improve balance"


My suggestion relates to Conquest and "Match Score" as a result of playing it.

I just spent a match on Alpine conquest. Given my purely short range but high speed build, I ran and took base after base after base while the team skirmished it out.

I wound up going from Sigma, to Theta, to Kappa, to Gamma, to Epsilon before the match ended. Damage: 0 (I never saw an enemy). End Match Score: "0"

I'm... a little disappointed that playing the objective earns me nothing in terms of a match score. I may as well have stood still on the base.

[Drawfire]

-Since every single post here is complaining about ECM, I'll skip that one. Already said my piece anyway.

-The Stalker varients are a bit odd ballance wise. The 3F and 5S are nearly identical except that the 5S can have 2 AMS and the 3F has far better torso twist than the others. The 5M is an interesting change of hardpoints. Not just number, but also location. The 3H and 4N are just bad. Never buy them. It shouldn't be like that. The best torso twist should be on one of the stalkers with fewer hardpoints. It would make things more interesting.

-As long as PPCs don't have any major side effects, the heat change seems good. If they really do start jamming the target's systems later, they may need to be re-nurfed.

-Legs harder to break from normal movement. Thank you.

-TAG does not seem to work on ECM targets in the 650-750m range. Not sure if that's ballance or bug.

-NARC still useless. Allowing NARC to jam ECM would be a big improvement.

[Drawfire]

Oops, forgot one:

"Warning, Targeted" needs to be removed. While it is nice to know when someone sees you, it takes all the fun out of stalking an assault in a light mech. He always knows you're there. There is no way to quietly spot for your team from an inconspicuous place. There is no way to drop in behind an enemy light and carefully line up a shot. He immediately dodges.

Besides, how would an enemy mech know it was targeted, anyway?

This is all very different from "Warning, Incomming Missiles". There's any number of ways to know when enemy missiles are in the air. It also is an anouncement that you are being shot at. It fits well in the game.

[Sniper061]

I figure this is the best place to ask/inform about this:

Something I have recently found out is that many "Splatcats" (A-1's using SRM-6's) are using what I see as a probable exploit.

Here's the issue. When jumpjetting in an A-1, the spread of the SRM's is significantly reduced. This is not some effect of Artemis as this *only* occurs while the mech is using its jumpjets. What players are doing, is combining this with the large number of SRMs in the Splatcat so that they are able to deliver all their damage to one or two areas of a mech, even when at a significant range.

I believe this is an exploit as jumpjets should have no effect on the spread of SRM's and this is likely a problem with the code. I searched the forums for this issue and have not seen it listed so I just wanted to make sure the devs were aware of it and maybe they could provide some clarification as to whether this is an exploit or an acceptable form of gameplay.


To reproduce:

1. Build splatcat (6x SRM-6's)
2. Add maximum number of Jump Jets
3. While in game, hit jumpjets and then fire SRMs while jets are active.

Edited by Sniper061, 02 March 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[WolvesX]

BAP

AMS

ECM

1.5 tons, 2 slots!

BAP = 25% increased target range, 25% faster information, detect shutdown mechs under 120m

AMS = Shot down 1-8 LRM, 0-3 SSRM

ECM = Well, as there is no discussion about its OPness anymore I'm going to skip this part.

---

ECM should be = decrease the range your mech is targetable by 25%, 25% slower information from you, can not be detected when you are shut down. Every mech should be able to get it.

That is a fair solution.

or make ECM hit both sides equally (same effect on both sides), no counter mode just ON / OFF and give BAP the counter.

http://mwomercs.com/...l-among-equals/

Edited by WolvesX, 03 March 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[WolvesX]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Fixed balanced of mechs (mass)

[WolvesX]

I wonder why this topic is so small, I mean if this game wants to beat LoL one day, which I hope, wouldn't be balance one of the most important things?

[Sahoj]

I feel like the Centurion is too wide. LRMS are underpowered (you shouldn't have to equip 60 to do reasonable damage) and poptarting with a gauss/2xerppc's is too effective.

[ExAstris]

WolvesX, on 03 March 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Its not this simple. If the only thing that needed to be balanced about a mech's geometry were its forward profile, then you'd have a point, but its not. Mechs chassis geometry necessitates different sizes for balance purposes.

The Jenner is the same height as the Commando because its torso area is larger from the front and enormous from the side. So even though its total hitbox from head-on is the same, its still drastically easier to hit from the side, and successful hits to its front area are much more likely to hit its torso than its arms.

Similarly, the Raven is taller yes, but its legs are thinner and harder to hit, while its torso and arms have roughly the same dimensions as the Jenner, so again, total available hitboxes are about the same.

And the Cicada is just 5 tons heavier and volumetrically much larger, but again, its geometry counteracts this nicely. Its arms provide significant protection to its aft side torsos, making defensive maneuvering a much more viable option for it, and again, much of its height is made up by extremely long legs, its torso is only an appropriately bit larger overall.

The hunchback needs to be smaller than the Centurion for three reasons. The first is that the Hunchback's center torso is "longer" than the Centurion's, making it much easier to hit from the sides. Combined with the second reason of the mech's respective arm geometries. The Centurion's arms almost completely block the torso from hits when properly angled to the side, while the hunchback and Dragon do not, meaning a good Centurion pilot can make much more effective defensive maneuvering and absorb alot more damage from enemies before its torsos get blown out. And finally, the Centurion's Center torso is a fair bit smaller than almost any other mech. Piloting it laterally to your opponents makes you pretty hard to drop via center-torso sniping, thus, shrinking the mech overall will only magnify this already significant advantage.

Yes, the Catapult model is huge, but it has to be in order to be fair. Its hull geometry is so completely different from other mechs that it needs an entirely different set of advantages and disadvantages. For weapons that deal spread damage, or against opponents who are not fantastic shots, the Catapult already has some of the absolute best hull geometry in the game, spreading damage wonderfully across all torso sections, combining this with its huge torso twist, and you have a mech that is very easy to pilot defensively. The only way to balance that is to make the mech bigger overall, so crack shots with precision weaponry can now properly hit its center torso when they try to. Combine this with cockpit vulnerability and you end up with a mech that has distinct and powerful upsides (the Catapult is insanely effective at spreading enemy LRM and SRM damage, torso twist makes it great at putting fire on enemies regardless of defensive maneuvering), but sharp downsides (easiest CT to hit, most exposed cockpit, arms cannot defend torsos).

And finally, the Stalker does not need to be made more vulnerable, it is already just as easy to target individual components on it as it is an Atlas, and the Stalker is less maneuverable to boot. No change needed here.



Summarily, the mech's geometry and scale are fine.


What isn't fine (and has kept me from even booting up the game in over a week) is ECM. Until that changes, even legitimate balance concerns such as the usability of smaller missile systems, machine guns, flamers, etc, will be second tier concerns not worth much effort in sorting out.

[MustrumRidcully]

WolvesX, on 03 March 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

I wonder why this topic is so small, I mean if this game wants to beat LoL one day, which I hope, wouldn't be balance one of the most important things?

So much has already been said, so little has happened. The topic may have the right size (if not too large already) for the speed at which balance is improved in M:WO... Think about how long we've been saying PPCs were too hot, and how long it took for this to be implemented.

And we all know how long ECM threads are popping up...

[DukeRustfield]

I'm going to disagree with just about everyone. I like the concept of ECM. I like an Atlas can have it. Because on huge maps a slow-as-poo brawler is basically a gigantic paper weight waiting to die.

The reason some light mechs can get it is because they can presumably do sneaky stuff and not be seen. But if you're 200% faster than anyone what does it matter if they see you? You can also get into cover. If you step out from cover in an Atlas only to start getting plinked by gaus/LRM/PPC you're going to take 100dmg before you can even get in cover again. You'd probably never deploy such big/slow mechs to wide open maps, but you don't get a choice of course.

I see two conflicting issues. LRMs are crazy powerful. I spam them myself and it's by far when I do the best. I hit tab and hold fire. Sometimes I move my mouse. Without ECM, I can't imagine how this would be stopped. Every other weapon would be superfluous unless you only got on tiny maps. And it just helps you approach. Getting Gaused in the face when I'm 1200 away and know it's going to take me 3 mins to walk there, is just disheartening.

*NOTE: for the record, I own no ECM mechs. Though I may buy an Atlas-DC. I mostly use Fast Awesomes as a way to avoid perma-snipe. But I move nearly 100% faster than my Atlas-r and can much easier get to safety.

I don't know if Narc is part of the canon or not. If it is, sure it should stay. But the idea of giving up a missile slot for it, it better do something damn good. I think maybe it should be applied to missile slots like artemis. Either that or it also provide a radar of enemy mechs for the duration. Though on one hand, I don't want weapons/tactics that no one in a pug will ever take. Because then a few organized people can simply devastate pugs. People take tag now because it helps them. Same with artemis. But you need a designated, somewhat selfless, narc.

[StalaggtIKE]

DukeRustfield, on 04 March 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

I'm going to disagree with just about everyone. I like the concept of ECM. I like an Atlas can have it. Because on huge maps a slow-as-poo brawler is basically a gigantic paper weight waiting to die.

You're not as much of a maverick as you think. I believe everyone here likes the concept of ECM, with disagreements only on how it has been implemented. There are plenty of slow brawlers in this game. Should they all receive it?

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The reason some light mechs can get it is because they can presumably do sneaky stuff and not be seen. But if you're 200% faster than anyone what does it matter if they see you? You can also get into cover. If you step out from cover in an Atlas only to start getting plinked by gaus/LRM/PPC you're going to take 100dmg before you can even get in cover again. You'd probably never deploy such big/slow mechs to wide open maps, but you don't get a choice of course.

When piloting an Atlas one must realize that he may get more than his paint scuffed up. You're a big slow target. How do you counter it? With a stronger offense. ECM is a tool for the lazy that do not want to torso twist while moving from cover to cover. Instead they rather run directly to their target, in the open, get within kissing distance and SRM their target to death.

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I see two conflicting issues. LRMs are crazy powerful. I spam them myself and it's by far when I do the best. I hit tab and hold fire. Sometimes I move my mouse. Without ECM, I can't imagine how this would be stopped. Every other weapon would be superfluous unless you only got on tiny maps. And it just helps you approach.

LRM is not powerful, however LRM boating is; As is anything else that is boated. Have you ever faced a PPC boater? I'd say that's far more powerful. LRM are easy to use; get target lock and fire. However this does not guarantee a kill nor damage. I've seen players fire 100s of missiles only to end the game with 300 damage and 0 kills. Knowing when and where to fire is a skill in itself.

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Getting Gaused in the face when I'm 1200 away and know it's going to take me 3 mins to walk there, is just disheartening.

Again that's just the cost of piloting a giant slow mech. You may get snipped. You must learn to advance from cover to cover better. Even Alpine has considerable cover as long as you play it smart.

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*NOTE: for the record, I own no ECM mechs. Though I may buy an Atlas-DC. I mostly use Fast Awesomes as a way to avoid perma-snipe. But I move nearly 100% faster than my Atlas-r and can much easier get to safety.

This may be why you have such an unsuitable opinion of ECM. I have a D-DC that I solely piloted for a month or so. It allowed me to sneak up on my enemy's flank as if I was in a Jenner. Most of the time they didn't even know I was there until I alpha into their back. It was really that easy. Now that I decided to elite some of my other Atlai, I have noticed some really bad habits of mine picked up from the utilization of ECM. Point is, I realized just how much ECM did for me and concluded how powerful it is. The better the pilot the further he can exploit its advantages.

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I don't know if Narc is part of the canon or not. If it is, sure it should stay. But the idea of giving up a missile slot for it, it better do something damn good. I think maybe it should be applied to missile slots like artemis. Either that or it also provide a radar of enemy mechs for the duration. Though on one hand, I don't want weapons/tactics that no one in a pug will ever take. Because then a few organized people can simply devastate pugs. People take tag now because it helps them. Same with artemis. But you need a designated, somewhat selfless, narc.

NARC is canon and currently sucks. It needs to be buffed in some way.