108 replies to this topic

[Stringburka]

Wintersdark, on 20 February 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Maybe I'm just slow... but it's been my experience that once a target is stripped of armor, items in that location (and the location itself) poof extremely rapidly regardless.

If you're in a heavy or heavier 'mech that's true, but as a light pilot I often (as in, maybe twice per game) find myself in a situation where I see a target that will take me quite some time to take down but that has an exposed slot or two - an atlas with no armor on the back RT and an AC20, a catapult with no armor on an arm etc. Usually they've lost armor to people taking potshots from across the map on forest colony or river city, or to some barrages of LRMs.

Now, the issue is that most lights that can mount MG's are pretty suboptimal regardless (raven 4x, spider 5k etc) so if I'm in an optimized 'mech I'll usually not have those weapons anyway, but if I for some reason had a raven 4x (say, leveling it, or if they boost it to be comparable to the 3L otherwise etc) and had to choose between this and this I'd probably pick n2.

Quote

Don't get me wrong. I want MG's and flamers to be worthwhile weapons. They should be at least comparable to a Medium/Small laser in effectiveness, but currently they're not even remotely close.

I still think the flamers suck, but if I have to choose between a small laser+DHS or an MG+Ammo I'll probably pick the MG, though that'd depend on the 'mech of course.

[Taurick]

Esplodin, on 20 February 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'd keep saying there is more than DPS to consider, but . . .

You'd be wrong?

There's three factors that come into play to determine a weapons effectiveness: DPS, Range, Impact (meaning how likely they are to make an enemy panic)

AC2's are superior to MG's in each of these factors, they are worse for weight. But I can still fit 2 on my spider

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Budor, on 20 February 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

This is how crits work for everything:

"2) Each time the internal structure of a Mech takes damage, there is a chance that the hit will cause at least 1 critical hit. There is a 25% chance of causing 1 critical hit, a 14% chance of causing 2 critical hits, and a 3% chance of causing 3 critical hits (for a total of a 42% chance of any sort of critical hit)."

Add MG/Flamer/LBX chances on top = 39%, 22%, 6% (total of 67%). I assume thats how it works.

so whats it matter then? More effective to destroy the part than screw around with the internals till they put rearm and repair back in, then its fun to jack up their repair costs

[Davers]

If structure had been tripled instead of armor doubled there might be more reason to take crit seeking weapons. It just seems easier to take out whole sections than rely on very inaccurate damage scattering weapons to get lucky crits.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Davers, on 20 February 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

If structure had been tripled instead of armor doubled there might be more reason to take crit seeking weapons. It just seems easier to take out whole sections than rely on very inaccurate damage scattering weapons to get lucky crits.

exactly

[shintakie]

Davers, on 20 February 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

If structure had been tripled instead of armor doubled there might be more reason to take crit seeking weapons. It just seems easier to take out whole sections than rely on very inaccurate damage scattering weapons to get lucky crits.

People really need to learn how the crit system works.

Crits do not, I repeat do not do anythin to internal structure. They only do damage to intenal equipment. A crit to the engine wont kill you either. The only way a crit can kill a mech is if you explore an ammo dump and it takes out a section with an engine in it.

[Asmudius Heng]

Sifright, on 20 February 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

........

Hahahahahahha.

Dude dude.

0.4dps thats how much damage that a mg is doing.
Flamer? 0.4 dps as well

Srm6 is 3.75 DPS

if you think the mg or flamer is doing ANY of the damage you are hopelessly deluded.

Or as i like to call it... golded.

The only way the MG or flamer could have been attributed to the kill is if they had ammo stored in the location - but even then the SRMs have just as good a chance of being the cause of the ammo explosion.

... but who stores ammo in their CT?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

shintakie, on 20 February 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

People really need to learn how the crit system works.

Crits do not, I repeat do not do anythin to internal structure. They only do damage to intenal equipment. A crit to the engine wont kill you either. The only way a crit can kill a mech is if you explore an ammo dump and it takes out a section with an engine in it.

thats why XL engines dont hurt your in game time when you lose a torso (not to an ammo explosion)?
Or did they fix it so that "bug" is gone?

[Davers]

shintakie, on 20 February 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

People really need to learn how the crit system works.

Crits do not, I repeat do not do anythin to internal structure. They only do damage to intenal equipment. A crit to the engine wont kill you either. The only way a crit can kill a mech is if you explore an ammo dump and it takes out a section with an engine in it.

But you can only score crits when armor is gone. By the time you lose components, your whole section is pretty much ready to go anyway. A Hunchback has like, what 20 structure on it's right torso? It's easier to knock out the torso than rely on getting a crit on the AC/20. So why take a 'crit seeking' weapon? Not to mention this was supposed to make these weapons more competitive. But I'll take a regular ac/10 over an LB-10 X, a small laser over a flamer, and anything (or nothing!) over a MG any day.

[Mr Rukus]

I've been testing quad MGs all day. And they destroy any weapon on exposed body parts like almost instantly.

[MischiefSC]

An AC10 will do more damage to internals than a 3% chance of max crits with an LB10X. An LB10X can be useful, more or less, just not so much as an AC10.

Flamer and MG are still tier 2 weapons. You don't use them because you want to count on them to do damage. You have them for some alternative reason. I use a pair of MGs on my K2 beamer build because lights tend to scatter faster than they do when they see lasers alone. A sense of impending damage and risk, it motivates people in lights more than others.

LB10X is not useful. Not even close to useful. Not in the context of a weapon that nearly the same weight as an AC20 but literally half the viable range. I used a pair of them in my Atlas. it was like putting kid gloves on. Yes, I can still hit hard enough to kill people but you couldn't seriously compare even two LB10xs to an AC20 for firepower, killing power, damaging power and usefulness.

Increasing crit chances on weapons that are not actually supposed to be dangerous is one thing. On a weapon that's supposed to fit around the AC10 weight-class it's pointless. An AC10 will be more successful since it'll just blow the location out before the LB10X does enough crits to be useful.

[Davers]

Mini Rukus, on 20 February 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I've been testing quad MGs all day. And they destroy any weapon on exposed body parts like almost instantly.

The ability to knock out a PPC on my LT is not much compared to destroying the LT and my XL engine though. Maybe if you could knock out my arm actuators and limit my firing angles or something in addition to regular component loss it might be worth a little more.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

flamers SHOULD heat the target more than the firing mech not be a crit seeker.

[Sable Dove]

MGs are still somewhere between worthless and liability (due to exploding ammo).

Flamers literally hurt you more than the enemy.

Haven't used the 10X since the patch, but probably no real noticeable improvement because crits aren't very useful for low-damage weapons.

[Chaos Bringer]

burned a stalker to death one time and loved it.... gonna try out the new buffs for the mg althought its really hard to tell any changes to it.

[Asmudius Heng]

Davers, on 20 February 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

The ability to knock out a PPC on my LT is not much compared to destroying the LT and my XL engine though. Maybe if you could knock out my arm actuators and limit my firing angles or something in addition to regular component loss it might be worth a little more.

I believe in TT you could crit actuators, gyros, angines and all others leading to problems for the mech. I think the critical peices in MWO are too simplistic - so is the heat scale not hurting speed and accurcy mind you but i digress ...

So yea i agree with you - but the concept of a crit seeker is still something I would like to see done well.

They are adjusting the health of internal components though I have noticed but unarmoured torsos just die so fast anyway

[Davers]

If they put in the ability to crit engines, then these would be decent weapons, especially the 10X.

[Selfish]

shintakie, on 20 February 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

People really need to learn how the crit system works.

Crits do not, I repeat do not do anythin to internal structure. They only do damage to intenal equipment. A crit to the engine wont kill you either. The only way a crit can kill a mech is if you explore an ammo dump and it takes out a section with an engine in it.

This is how it works. If you're looking for tons of damage don't look for crits. They have their purpose, and it's more subtle than direct damage.

I feel that the MG got the most out of the buffs. LB10 has too many drawbacks compared to the other AC's despite the buff. Flamers are hot, low damage, and I still don't think they apply heat properly yet. MG's have no heat, require little tonnage, and en masse can now efficiently crit everything in the game in a very quick manner. Better yet, they are already easy to fit on low end mechs with superfluous ballistics hardpoints. They aren't really a "top tier" solution to anything. They're for opportunistic playstyles like scouts/strikers who are often not concerned with face-brawling and often don't have the tonnage/slots to fit heavier/other weapons.

I've been using my CDA-3C, and it's pretty fun. 4x MG (1 ton), 1 ER PPC, AMS (1 ton), XL325, DHS, FF, ES. The speedy ER PPC is nice, and when I need to I can crit all the equipment out of components in mere seconds. If you aren't familiar with the way people build mechs (where they stuff their ammo, where weapons will be, etc) then the machine guns will be under par. Just don't go around expecting to level cities because you can crit really well.

Edited by Selfish, 20 February 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[Davers]

Selfish, on 20 February 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

This is how it works. If you're looking for tons of damage don't look for crits. They have their purpose, and it's more subtle than direct damage.

I feel that the MG got the most out of the buffs. LB10 has too many drawbacks compared to the other AC's despite the buff. Flamers are hot, low damage, and I still don't think they apply heat properly yet. MG's have no heat, require little tonnage, and en masse can now efficiently crit everything in the game in a very quick manner. Better yet, they are already easy to fit on low end mechs with superfluous ballistics hardpoints. They aren't really a "top tier" solution to anything. They're for opportunistic playstyles like scouts/strikers who are often not concerned with face-brawling and often don't have the tonnage/slots to fit heavier/other weapons.

I've been using my CDA-3C, and it's pretty fun. 4x MG (1 ton), 1 ER PPC, AMS (1 ton), XL325, DHS, FF, ES. The speedy ER PPC is nice, and when I need to I can crit all the equipment out of components in mere seconds. If you aren't familiar with the way people build mechs (where they stuff their ammo, where weapons will be, etc) then the machine guns will be under par. Just don't go around expecting to level cities because you can crit really well.

But most people don't target the legs, so you have to wear them down by yourself. And if you did that, you could have cored out a side torso.

[Archphor]

I think the bigest problem (like most have stated) is that you cant get crits until armor has been striped, and by that point that part of the mech is a target anyway and will vary quickly be gone. I dont know if raising the dmg on these wepons will fix anything, and the crit rate seems fine, its just hard to notice since a part of a mech that has no armor will quickly be removed.

I suggest that the LBx and MG have a chance to have a armor piercing effect say 10%-15% (this number could be higher or lower i dont care), and give an increace to the amount of heat a flame will give an opponent.