391 replies to this topic

[Byk]

Sephlock, on 31 May 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Yen Lo Wang and Pretty Baby are PTL though.

Disagree. Yen-Lo-Wang is an extremely good mech in the right hands.

[The Platypus]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Well conidering about 10% of mechs are hero mechs it more like 10% of the community. If someone "with the skeelz to make the Death's Knell strike like the fury of nachomachoman" has to pay to do so, how is it NOT pay to win?

Because it's not the hero mech itself that is inherently powerful, just the pilot. The DK(let's stick with this) doesn't have more tonnage to spare or more efficient heat sinks than a regular COM-2D. What it does have is a slightly different set of hardpoints that facilitates a different play style.I'll admit that the IM was pushing P2W when it first came out for reasons stated in other replies before mine but in most cases, cbill variants perform as well if not better than their Hero counterparts. P2W would be something like making Clan tech available only through MC (please God, don't let this be the case in the future).Hypothetically, you pay to get a clear cut advantage(less weight, less crit slots etc) over regular IS cbill variants of weapons.

[Thomas Covenant]

One Medic Army, on 31 May 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

Let me put it this way:
Hero mechs are less P2W than good computer hardware and/or a gaming mouse.

Therefore I consider them under the threshold for what I consider P2W on the scale of in-game purchases.

Everything's shades of grey, the question is when you start calling something black or white.

Currently the issue is shades of grey, as you said, and I am willing perhaps to entertain a discussion of to what degree.
The fact remains there wouldn't be any grey at all if the issue was just removed. Many will find $30 is a fairly large pay wall for an in game item, with no other means to obtain.

Thank you those that have participated. I am sorry if I do not give you a swift reply but know I appreciate the dialogue.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[Pater Mors]

Thomas Covenant, on 01 June 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Currently the issue is shades of grey, as you said, and I am willing perhaps to entertain a discussion of to what degree.
The fact remains there wouldn't be any grey at all if the issue was just removed. Many will find $30 is a fairly large pay wall for an in game item, with no other means to obtain.

Thank you those that have participated. I am sorry if I do not give you a swift reply but know I appreciate the dialogue.

It's not a shade of grey at all.

Nothing in this game is even close to P2W. All of the hero mechs die just as easily as a c-bill purchased variant, the only difference is that they get a 30% c-bill bonus for supporting PGI through a cash payment. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If they suddenly introduced a Daishi with a bunch of clan weaponry and 1000pts of armor that you could only buy with MC, that would be P2W.

[Thomas Covenant]

James DeGriz, on 31 May 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

I don't think you did it on purpose so I'll respond. Pretty much every quote you used of mine you took out of context(thought I was talking about something I wasn't)

Take a look again.

[Gelion]

Well the ability to upgrade all mechs to Hero variants is highly unlikely due to the route taken by PGI. I also believe the OP is not trying to say that the Hero mechs create an advantage in the game, merely that there is a possibility that your best mech also is the mech which you cannot ever afford. However, the difference in variants or mechs is not great enough in my opinion to create such a disparity and a 'want' from people to get a mech they can never get. There is enough variety and enough similarity to discount the need, want, and opportunity cost of a Hero mech compared to non-Hero mechs.

[Junkman7mgte]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

It is not a question of the mech but the man.

There, you just said it .... It's not the Mech - AT ALL . Just because it comes stock with a different layout, that another mech cannot mimick, does not make it better.

/thread

[MustrumRidcully]

Pay-To-Win is about objective advantages, not subjective qualities.

If for some reason you are utterly incapable of calculating lead with ballistics, and have to always use LL, giving you a 12 laser heavy mech is not pay-to-win just because that's the best mech for you.

It's pay-to-win if equipping 12 lasers is superior to all other weapons combos, because, say, with 12 lasers you can deal more damage in shorter time and sustain it for a longer period without any sacrifices in armour or engine speed then any other weapon combo.

[James DeGriz]

Thomas Covenant, on 01 June 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

I don't think you did it on purpose so I'll respond. Pretty much every quote you used of mine you took out of context(thought I was talking about something I wasn't)

Take a look again.

I quoted it in the order you posted it with no omissions. Saying it as I saw it. So no, I have no intention of revision. Your premise and your logic is flawed. I just gave you examples to illustrate that fallacy.

[LockeJaw]

Thanks James. I didn't have the time nor inclination to do that, so my hat is off to you.

[TurinAlexander]

In the incredibly overrated books, Thomas Covenant is an anithero, victim, and not particularly bright. The fact that this guy would choose to name himself after him pretty much tells me all I need to know about him.

[Sephlock]

Byk, on 01 June 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Disagree. Yen-Lo-Wang is an extremely good mech in the right hands.

And a toothpick is extremely deadly in the right hands.



That doesn't make it a good weapon.

[Thomas Covenant]

James DeGriz, on 01 June 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

I quoted it in the order you posted it with no omissions. Saying it as I saw it. So no, I have no intention of revision. Your premise and your logic is flawed. I just gave you examples to illustrate that fallacy.

I will point you in the right direction. You thought I was pointing out what makes a hero mech pay to win. No. In those examples I was infact pointing out what makes a hero mech still valuable still if they made the variant purchasable with cbills also. Do you really believe I was stating paint makes them pay to win? Of course not. That doesn't make any sense. Take another look.

Note you will need to look at the original post rather than just your own, to see the original poster's question that was directed for me. Go on.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Sephlock, on 01 June 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

And a toothpick is extremely deadly in the right hands.



That doesn't make it a good weapon.

This, actually.

[Thomas Covenant]

In a very extreme example. You imagine 5 superheroes that all use a weapon. One a bow, one a whip, ect and so forth. All are at about even in level of skill with their respective weapons.

If in a fight we take away all of their weapons, but then let them choose any of the five weapons(with 5 copies of each), but one doesn't get to use the one he naturally does(say the bowman may only choose the whip or other four weapons), he is at a disadvantage in the fight. Even if the 5 weapons are themselves balanced.

In truth it would be more alike 10 weapons. As if the bowman had 9 to choose from and the bow was forbidden.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Barghest Whelp]

El Bandito, on 30 May 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

Before the introduction of JM6-DD, Ilya was borderline P2W. I loved UAC5 and Ilya was the ONLY mech (MC only) with 3 of them for the longest time and frequently topped the damage charts. Only CTF-4X was similar but everyone knows 4X blows.

Just saying.

Yes, now: WTB 70 ton JM6-DD with 3 energy hardpoints.

Edit: and what this is really about is what kind of tactical options you have at your disposal. It doesn't matter to me, because I'll just pay for what I want, but that's hardly the point. There should be a CB version of each hero that has the default camo and colours, and no CB earning bonus.

Edited by Barghest Whelp, 01 June 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

There are two discussions here. Those that don't see a problem, at all, as in 0%. Then there are those that see the problem, but discuss to which degree it affects the situation.

If you are in the first group, the idea that is trying to be conveyed is that it doesn't matter if the mechs are all balanced and considered to have an equal chance of winning. The problem starts in that they are all unique. As with anything unique that someone may use, they will find the one they like best. The problem is that not everyone gets the same number of options without paying, so they may not be able to choose the one they like best, even if others do. If the word "like" is slipping you up, replace it with "perform best in".

Haven't you noticed you do better in one mech more than another? There is probably a mech you are able to do the most damage in a round in, on average. Or one you live longest in on average. Paying players have access to 10% more.

So the problem is not a question of how well the mechs are balances, but that they are all unique AND sometimes exclusive.



If you are in the group that acknowledges this problem and are considering how much of a problem it actually is, these are some points to consider.

•Natural skill vs Acquired skill.
&
•Increasing assortment of available diversity.
Perhaps it doesn't matter, it could be argued, that you may not have access to 10% of the mechs, because even if you would be more natural at performing a certain task in one of these, there are enough secondary choices that you can get enough skill to be better with a mech with enough practice.

My thoughts are that for many this will be true. I do feel, though, there will be situations in which certain mechs are just so unique in what they do, there will be disparity from what is offered, in the eyes of the pilot, by the second choice, if there even is one. The pilot may be able to take advantage of certain mech quirks and traits together to accomplish something, maybe perform a strategy just not truly replicated in anything else. They may be able to determine this just by examining the mech, without ever even piloting it. I see this as a problem, and worse a probable outcome, as I see it, a side effect of the uniqueness of mechs. This doesn't become an issue until you restrict their availability just to those that will pay.

•Affordability and Patronage
Maybe $10, $20, $30 for a mech isn't a lot. Maybe, some might present, is a decent contribution to a game such as this, if you really want to get everything you can possibly get out of it.

My thoughts is I would agree if I had signed up to a game that didn't claim to be entirely skill bases and entirely not pay to win. As I have proved, albiet not with numbers but with reasonable logic, the exclusivity of hero mechs does constitute a level of pay to win.

•It could be worse
Yes! And the game makers have done absolutely terrific, not just when compared to their peers. Perhaps this is why I have the confidence to bring up this issue.

tl;dr
learn2read

-Spence

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Deathlike]

This is way too much of a sinkhole/quicksand discussion.

If there was a mech that overwhelmingly better than its peers AND requires MC to acquire, you may have P2W.

However, pretty much every hero mech to date isn't really that special compared to its peers... just special enough to be different.

Unless you have some legitimate argument that a particular hero mech is overwhelmingly better, you have no case.

All opinions on mechs in general are subjective... but when you consider the frequency of their appearances... I have never been able to discern an advance. I'm able to figure out that MGs still tickle my mech (they are a little threatening, but not much more than before).

I'm only annoyed on hero/founders weekends where I don't have any hero mech available.. and I did see them in force then... and are still no different than the normal mechs.

Here's a quick breakdown of the hero mechs and counters:
Death Knell - COM-2D is more of a threat
X5 - It's still a Cicada, the 3M/2A is a bigger threat
Yen Lo Wang - I try to leg all Cents I come across
Flame/Fang - Still easily to core, CT or side.
Ilya Muromets - CTF-3D is more of a threat in the current meta
PB - It's still an Awesome
Misery - Easy to deal with even when you brawl, like most Stalkers
Heavy Metal - It has the less overall firepower than the other Highlanders, despite the optimal direct fire hardpoints are in the arms

In any case... meh to the entire post.

[RG Notch]

HATS!

[LordBraxton]

for a while Ilya was pay 2 win (best phract)

then PPCs got buffed

and the muppets realized it had less energy hardpoints

Edited by LordBraxton, 01 June 2013 - 02:45 PM.