391 replies to this topic

[Myworstfear]

What hero mech can mount something that a c-bill variant cannot? I can't think of any but I don't play assault mechs so I could be wrong. Also, I doubt the CN9-AL could be considered pay to win

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

This topic is pure gold. Made me put on my folio hat.

[Thomas Covenant]

Deathlike, on 01 June 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

This is way too much of a sinkhole/quicksand discussion.

If there was a mech that overwhelmingly better than its peers AND requires MC to acquire, you may have P2W.

To quote my post directly above yours

Quote

So the problem is not a question of how well the mechs are balances, but that they are all unique AND sometimes exclusive.

It may seem like a quicksand topic because the mechs balance is not the argument at all. Thus like quicksand, you are fighting yourself.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

SOLUTIONS

•Make it so you can eventually earn a hero mech from a faction.
Perhaps they are faction specific, perhaps with enough faction points you can have your pick.

I'm sure Opus would kill me if I didn't mention there needs to be a way for Mercs and Lone Wolves to earn one too.
Perhaps they would be able to earn faction points from any faction, but faction players earn their specific type, faster.

•Make it so there is a base variant available.
Maybe its double, triple or more, than other variants of the same mech. Maybe it lacks the custom paint and bonuses. Hero mechs having a unique design, perhaps the mechs can only accept a simple solid paint coat.

•Make is so you can get enough MC to get one, within a fair amount of time. If it takes 2 months, that might be fair. If it takes a year or two, not so much.

Any amalgamation of these would work.

Also, even if skilled pilots get rewarded faster, players at any skill level must be able to obtain them.

Also, it might be nice to favor traits other than skill, from time to time. For example "artists of the week" contests, or funniest memer. Find ways to appreciate the ways a diversity of players and people plug in to a community.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Raso]

I think that some of the hero mechs might fair better or worse based on what ever meta is FTW at the moment but I would hardly call them OP or even PTW. I mean even with the up coming Jager what are you going to do the slots on the arms? I figure most will go dual AC20s and they already do that on every other Jager mech. PPC on the arms? A fair bit of a difrence but not by much and, frankly, there are other mechs that can boat dual or even triple PPC better.

What about The-X? Well it lacks ECM and it's one onf those "under powered" mediums you see so many people hating on. It's also fast. Woot.

The Yen Lo? It's a Hunchback. It has a pretty color scheme. It's arm can be shot off and has less HP than the Hunchback's hunch (also no front and rear armor on it's arms.

The Ilya? Triple UACs. Maybe the most powerful of the hero mechs but, honestly, the Cataphract is already a good, all around chassis. It also lacks JJs, which are all the rage these days, but otherwise has energy hardpoints no different than many of the other variants.

Pretty Baby? Death's Knell? Well they're an Awesome and a Commando, respectively, so.... yeah. Case and point. Sorry guys.

Now we come to the Heavy Metal. JJs? Check. Assault class? Check. Can boat several PPCs, ERPPCs and/or a gauss? Check. Can it use missile? Check.... not that anyone cares, though. Can it equip anything that another Highlander can't? Not really, no. The only problem here is that everything that the Highlander can do and do well is part of the FTW meta right now. It's a great pop tart sniper but so are other mechs.

Now if you want to talk about the CB boost, well, frankly I really don't care. Lots of daily players have tons of CBs and nothing to spend them on. Someone like myself, who only plays a few times a week might benefit from the bonus the most but..... well do I really want to spend that much cash on an in game item which I'll only use a few times a week AND might be under powered or otherwise rendered useless in a few patches? Well..... maybe not. Maybe on a medium.

[Deathlike]

Thomas Covenant, on 01 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

It may seem like a quicksand topic because the mechs balance is not the argument at all. Thus like quicksand, you are fighting yourself.

If your issue is that you don't want a discussion, then go figure, we have no discussion.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 June 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[Sephlock]

Myworstfear, on 01 June 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

What hero mech can mount something that a c-bill variant cannot? I can't think of any but I don't play assault mechs so I could be wrong. Also, I doubt the CN9-AL could be considered pay to win

Ilya Muromets can mount 3x Ultra autocannons, which no other mech could prior to the Jagermech's release.

[Thomas Covenant]

Deathlike, on 01 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

If your issue is that you don't want a discussion, then go figure, we have no discussion.

It would have to be a discussion about the same topic, is all. We agree the topic is answering the question "are hero mechs pay to win". We are separate on discussing what aspect makes them so. You are focused on mech balance. I am focused on exclusivity of total number of options, to those that will and will not pay, and how if you can't use your best mech unless you pay, well then in turn it is set so you have to pay for said advantage

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[Deathlike]

The original argument posted is not really a good one. It makes it sounds like free players should be allowed freeload further.

I sympathize with the idea that hero mechs should be accessible to the average free player in some form (I'm technically one that has yet to pay a cent to this game)... trial hero mechs and/or some long, but grindable mechanism and/or with some combination of limited benefits to using a hero mech. Think of the Heavy Metal users that were early adopters. They weren't really OP in the first place, but their benefit to having the first highlander was negated a bit with the absence of being able to elite it (you could only get basics mastered). Something like that could be applied to being able to use a hero mech by any player. They could be limited to having basics mastered only (or none at all, but basics should be good enough for most players). The incentive to actually buy the mech to elite/master that would be there.

C-bills and skin doesn't really interest me too much, as has been said. The reality is that PGI wants to find ways to make money, and that's fine by me. However, I do believe all mechs should be available to everyone, but if there needs to be imposed limitations, then so be it. Give the opportunity for free players to play with the mech and buy it if they like it. The current system does not allow for testing hero mechs, only other variants, which really isn't the same (the BJ-1X for instance plays a lot different than the BJ-1 and BJ-3 by design).

So, instead of using pretty lame arguments by the OP in this thread, please use better arguments that allow more sensible reactions instead of people wanting to laugh at every argument that make you sound terrible.

I recognize that PGI wants our money, and that's fine. Hero mechs should not be all about the MC (although that's a different discussion to be had), but it should be able giving everyone an opportunity to use a mech. If you see more hero mechs on the field, you can find more people interested in buying it. It's all about the marketing. If you want people to want to buy it, you have to give them the incentive to do so.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 June 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[Sephlock]

The only players that should be allowed to freeload are Founders. They should be carried upon the backs of the poor plebs:

Edited by Sephlock, 01 June 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Quote

The original argument posted is not really a good one. It makes it sounds like free players should be allowed freeload further.

What original arguement. The first post of this thread? I don't think I implied any course of action. I only pointed out the problem in my first post.

Now that we are discussing it, yes, let them 'freeload'. Make it so its a lot easier and more convenient to buy, but a dedicated player that is around long enough deserves to be rewarded. They have increased the number of people for you to play with, and they have likely added to the community by participating in mercenary corps and other aspects of the game.

[Thomas Covenant]

Sephlock, on 01 June 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

The only players that should be allowed to freeload are Founders. They should be carried upon the backs of the poor plebs:

*said poster, is a founder*

lol

[Sephlock]

Thomas Covenant, on 01 June 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

*said poster, is a founder*

lol

I have no idea what you might be implying with that statement. I assure you I am speaking from a purely objective point of view, and have only the interests of the greater whole and MechWarrior in general in mind.

[Thomas Covenant]

Quote

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Volthorne]

Sephlock, on 01 June 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

The only players that should be allowed to freeload are Founders. They should be carried upon the backs of the poor plebs:

I fully support this sentiment. We paid for your entrance into the game. It's high time you space-poors started to repay our kindness for supplying you with stompy-robot goodness. My car needs a wash, if you don't mind. Use your tongue, it gets more dirt off.

[Sephlock]

Aww I can't find a video of Monshiro walking on all those servants .

[Thomas Covenant]

*Sephlock has been appointed official thread bumper, thank you for your services


To the great detest of OMA , I do much love metaphors .

lets take the first one and run with it a little more...

If I give you a sword, a bow, and spear which you have never used either of, and I tell you to train with them...

You come back and say "I like the bow best"

I then give you many bows to train with. Some are longer, some made of harder wood, each one different.

You find one you like best. It lets you shoot farthest. Some may let you shoot harder, or are more accurate, but this is your preference.

Aside: Mechs are much the same way, they are balanced constantly with the goal that none are better than any other, just more specialized, or different.

Another person likes bows, they also like to shoot far, but surprisingly, they pick a different bow to do it. Maybe they are not as good as you, but your bow doesn't work well for them.

So there is no best bow for shooting far for everyone.

You see another bow. This bow is only permitted for some people, sadly in ths example we'll say its not for you.

This bow is made of a wood that you are able to shoot far, and of a string that helps you to that end aswell.

You see the bow that you will have the most advantage with, but cannot have it.

Other people can have what ever bow they want. So when you are asked "is this exclusivity fair, does it [not take away any advantage]?"
What is the truth?

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[Devin Takkar]

I'm very amused by the...let's say philosophical aspects of this discussion. Is there the one true mech to achieve your full potential as a mechwarrior? Thinking about it, it reminds me of swords like Excalibur, Glamdring, Anduril, Balmung and so many others, named swords that made the man wielding it a hero, a king....but you know what? They are all fictional. In reality, the wielder defines how much his sword arm is worth, not the sword.
It's even worse as a mechwarrior...it is not the mech, it's a specific combination of weapons and engines that fits best to your preferred playing style. There is no player in the whole world with a skillset that limited that he can only be his best with one specific mech.
So no. Hero mechs are not pay 2 win. And there is not the One Mech out there that unlocks a players true potential.

[Thomas Covenant]

Devin Takkar, on 01 June 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I'm very amused by the...let's say philosophical aspects of this discussion. Is there the one true mech to achieve your full potential as a mechwarrior? Thinking about it, it reminds me of swords like Excalibur, Glamdring, Anduril, Balmung and so many others, named swords that made the man wielding it a hero, a king....but you know what? They are all fictional. In reality, the wielder defines how much his sword arm is worth, not the sword.
It's even worse as a mechwarrior...it is not the mech, it's a specific combination of weapons and engines that fits best to your preferred playing style. There is no player in the whole world with a skillset that limited that he can only be his best with one specific mech.
So no. Hero mechs are not pay 2 win. And there is not the One Mech out there that unlocks a players true potential.

A fair clarification. But you do acknowledge natural talent and preference do you not? I take it you are responding to the original post. I don't expect you to have read every post that has come after, but since I just finished writing it, take a look at the post above yours.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 01 June 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Sephlock]

Devin Takkar, on 01 June 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I'm very amused by the...let's say philosophical aspects of this discussion. Is there the one true mech to achieve your full potential as a mechwarrior? Thinking about it, it reminds me of swords like Excalibur, Glamdring, Anduril, Balmung and so many others, named swords that made the man wielding it a hero, a king....but you know what? They are all fictional. In reality, the wielder defines how much his sword arm is worth, not the sword.
It's even worse as a mechwarrior...it is not the mech, it's a specific combination of weapons and engines that fits best to your preferred playing style. There is no player in the whole world with a skillset that limited that he can only be his best with one specific mech.
So no. Hero mechs are not pay 2 win. And there is not the One Mech out there that unlocks a players true potential.

Argghh you had to post that as I was looking for the right Fate Clip on youtube... .