109 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

More hardpoints means the capacity to carry more lightweight, short-range weapons -> means more use overall of those Mechs and more brawling. The Stalker, for example, can carry more firepower than most Mechs simply because it has many Hardpoints (hardpoints is a much greater factor than Mech Weight when it comes to Brawling Energy Weapons and SRMs)

Sweeping through the Medium Mech class and providing an overall-infusion of more hardpoints would give them the capacity to hold their own against Heavier Mechs because the Meds could carry more powerful-but-short-ranged weapons to counteract the Heavies'/Assaults' loadouts.

If Mediums get more hardpoints, then more Mediums will be on the field using their speed and maneuverability to deliver the hurt from their short-ranged weapons. This will curb the Sniper Meta a bit, too, because a Medium Mech bristling with MLs and SRMs can out-firepower a Gauss+ PPC sniper of a heavier weight class.


How do others feel about this?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 July 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Sybreed]

doesn't this prove just how bad the hardpoint system is? Like I said before, if PGI doesn't want to give hardpoint limits, just give full customization. Having a limited set of hardpoints means it's better to use them to fit bigger guns than smaller guns. If we have to artificially increase the number of hardpoints on certain mechs so they're more viable, might as well give unlimited HP to everyone and call it a day.

It's an arbitrary system that doesn't make sense. It felt rushed in CB, still feels rushed now.

[OneEyed Jack]

Exactly which "more" weapons do you think they'd be carrying and still keeping up a decent speed?

[Felicitatem Parco]

The Limited Hardpoint system does have a decent enough function, though, of preventing Mechs with 30 MG, 15 MLs, or 10 SRM packs.

[hammerreborn]

Why would this help? And how do you suppose a mech have speed/maneuverability while also using more weapons? It is a choice between one or the other.

The game already has a too many weapon problem, I'm not sure how making it worse would help

[Evax]

Nope!

[Mongoose Trueborn]

They would still die before they could get into short range. Speed is what mediums are missing.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Sybreed, on 16 July 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

doesn't this prove just how bad the hardpoint system is? Like I said before, if PGI doesn't want to give hardpoint limits, just give full customization. Having a limited set of hardpoints means it's better to use them to fit bigger guns than smaller guns. If we have to artificially increase the number of hardpoints on certain mechs so they're more viable, might as well give unlimited HP to everyone and call it a day.

The Limited Hardpoint system does have a decent enough function, though, of preventing Mechs with 30 MG, 15 MLs, or 10 SRM packs.

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Why would this help? And how do you suppose a mech have speed/maneuverability while also using more weapons? It is a choice between one or the other.

I think the Hunchback 4J and 4SP should have more missiles, the Cent AL should have more energy, the Ballistic Hunches and Cents should have more Ballistic points... I don;'t have enough experience with the BJ's though, to judge.

I just frequently find myself getting mad that my Hunchback Missile "Boats" only have 2 hardpoints each, while the Heavies and Assaults get 4+ missile hardpoints for their boats. If the Hunchies want to carry more than 2 SRM6, they should be allowed to because they are Short-Ranged fighters. They had 4 hardpoints back in Closed Beta, but those were toned down during a tuning pass. i think they should be brought back, now.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 July 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[jakucha]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 16 July 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

They would still die before they could get into short range. Speed is what mediums are missing.

Mediums aren't supposed to be able to compete with most heavies and any assaults unless in bigger groups. I don't think I agree mediums need more firepower also.

What's missing is strict weight restrictions per team; closer to lore which would be good in this case. Very few assaults, few heavies, many more mediums and lights.

Edited by jakucha, 16 July 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

jakucha, on 16 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

What's missing is strict weight restrictions per team; closer to lore which would be good in this case. Very few assaults, few heavies, many more mediums and lights.

There wil be weight restrictions coming up, but I still think Medums should have many many hardpoints to encourage the use of many smaller weapons, and bigger Mechs should have fewer/equal hardpoints to encourage the mounting of Bigger Weapons.

Big Mechs can spend weight on big weapons, but Mediums have to get by with 1 big weapon and a bunch of smaller ones, or just a really big number of smaller ones. I want the option to make my Medium as "powerful" as a bigger Mech, albeit with a significant range disadvantage.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 July 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

The Limited Hardpoint system does have a decent enough function, though, of preventing Mechs with 30 MG, 15 MLs, or 10 SRM packs.



I think the Hunchback 4J and 4SP should have more missiles, the Cent AL should have more energy, the Ballistic Hunches and Cents should have more Ballistic points... I don;'t have enough experience with the BJ's though, to judge.

I just frequently find myself getting mad that my Hunchback Missile "Boats" only have 2 hardpoints each, while the Heavies and Assaults get 4+ missile hardpoints for their boats. If the Hunchies want to carry more than 2 SRM6, they should be allowed to because they are Short-Ranged fighters. They had 4 hardpoints back in Closed Beta, but those were toned down during a tuning pass. i think they should be brought back, now.

But where are those 8 tons (assuming 2 srm6 + 2 more tons of ammo) going to come from? The engine, or other weapons. In which case you've only succeeded in either shifting your weapons load out to make it a mini splatcat, or goes even slower than one, which pretty much contradicts your speed proposal entirely.

And if you really wanted a missile medium, there's the treb.

[3rdworld]

mediums not being slow as molasses would probably help more.

[Felicitatem Parco]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

And if you really wanted a missile medium, there's the treb.

Trebs have 2 Missile Hardpoints (except that one that has a single-tube launcher, as well, but that's not meant for SRM'ing anyone).

Trebs have 2x15-tube launchers, which implies you should be using LRM-15. Hunchies have much smaller launchers, which implies you should be using more weapons of smaller size each... but no, they do not allow for the "more weapons" part of that trade.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 July 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[FupDup]

3rdworld, on 16 July 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

mediums not being slow as molasses would probably help more.

Or the size of assault mechs.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

More Hardpoints don't seem helpful for most Mediums. Maybe to Normalize numbers across variants, but not re-balance against Heavies or Lights.

For example Hunchies could all be set to each have a combo of nine hardpoints, Cents at six (but where for the YLW?), BlackJacks to eight, and Cicadas each to six. Trebs already sit at six for each.



Mediums would seem to get a better boost from removing or replacing Speed Tweak, increasing their mobility (acceleration, decel, turn speed, etc.) and modifying DHS, IMO.

Right now Heavies are benefiting more from having Speed Tweak and DHS, because they can carry more firepower for larger burst damage and have maybe too good of mobility for both their size and engine rating.

Even the slow CTF-4X gets a nice enough boost with a 255 and Speed Tweak going from 59 KPH to 64.9 KPH. A difference of 5.9 KPH.

[hammerreborn]

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Trebs have 2 Missile Hardpoints (except that one that has a single-tube launcher, as well, but that's not meant for SRM'ing anyone).

Trebs have 2x15-tube launchers, which implies you should be using LRM-15. Hunchies have much smaller launchers, which implies you should be using more weapons of smaller size each... but no, they do not allow for the "more weapons" part of that trade.

You're right, thought the 3 missile hardpoint had 4.

And as 3L pilots will tell you, single tube launchers are amazing for streaks

[Braggart]

mediums would greatly benefit from a solid low weight medium range weapon. Think of the medium laser, same damage & slightly more heat, but has the range of the large laser, but also weights 2 tons.

Getting working pulse lasers wouldnt be a bad idea either.

The weapons that medium mechs can mount and be considered a threat force mediums into brawling range, where they cannot compete with a heavier mech that is also designed for brawling. And all the ranged weaponry in this game is way to heavy for a medium to be a good medium/long ranged harasser.

To many things work against mediums for them to ever be a relevant addition to this game.

[Lucian Nostra]

it wouldn't solve anything, we already have the HBK-4P rocking 9 Medium lasers while being able to truck along at 92 kph after tweek if memory serves.

It hits hard and it moves quick, it doesn't need more MLs, the problem is that it eats trip PPC gauss to the chest and it's almost finished off..

edit: problem lies in there's no system to make mediums be the bulk of the mechs out there so people go for heavier machines, and hardpoints aren't limited in what can be put in em so go for pinpoint weapons.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 16 July 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Rework the hardpoint system.

A viable alternative is a Hardpoint Crit sizes, restricting what kind of weapon can be mounted by its size.

The idea I have in mind is you can mount up to that size weapon type, or equal comparison size of smaller.
The base is around what the stock build has, so you can swap weapons or tweak the interior, but you can't build outside its intended use.

Basically, each hardpoint can be split by the crit size. A Trebuchet's PPC spot is a single 3-crit size. However on something like a Jenner's arm theree is three 1-crit sizes. A PPC can't fit there, however the Treb can choose to swap for 3 Medium Lasers, or a Large Laser and Medium Laser as alternatives.

This does limit some alternatives, and cut out alot of PPC usable builds - but it would even out because you don't have so many to contend with.


Alternatively special exceptions can be made where its a single 6-crit energy in the Hunchback's shoulder, or something like a 10-crit missile in Catapult arms, allowing any combination of options.


By reworking what can be mounted you limit and change the build options.


That is what i think could solve the dilemma with Mediums. The PPC/AC lines that are able to mount and abuse enough high-damage pinpoint accuracy weapons end up overpowering the Medium's intended role. If we cut that down, then they can come back effectively.


As it is right now, an Jag can sport dual AC-20s, and heavies/assualts got quad PPC. Their damage potential outcalsses any hope the Medium has to match that. Rework that limitation and what weapons are where and we'll end up with the variety alternatives that will work out.

[Braggart]

Lucian Nostra, on 16 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

it wouldn't solve anything, we already have the HBK-4P rocking 9 Medium lasers while being able to truck along at 96 kph after tweek if memory serves.

It hits hard and it moves quick, it doesn't need more MLs, the problem is that it eats trip PPC gauss to the chest and it's almost finished off..

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 1 mech can mount that many mediums. WTF do we do about all the other mechs. I disagree though, it doesnt hit hard, it doesnt move fast.