242 replies to this topic

[Johnny Reb]

I don't get why the erLL is so bad. I prefer reg LL unless I have a way over heat efficient build like my fast Cent-D. If I want more range than 2 meds in the ct and am very heat efficient why not get the extra range of the erLL at that same tonnage.

edit: also my locust prime will definitely have an erLL with 2 machine guns in it.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 29 July 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[Lyoncet]

1453 R, on 28 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

You're honestly telling me that you don't see a difference between informing new players of the current state of affairs with "Heya! How ya doing? I have to say that this gun you're using isn't generally very good, for these reasons." and Victor's little "THESE GUNS ARE BAD. IF YOU USE THEM YOUR ROBOT IS BAD. IF YOUR ROBOT IS BAD, YOU ARE BAD. IF YOU ARE BAD, YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD, AND ALSO GET THE HELL OFF MY TEAM." tirade in the opening post here?

Man, 1453, you totally had me with your OP, and completely 100% lost all your credibility with this one. Victor has gone incredible length to get across the point that no, running these weapons doesn't make you a bad person, no, you shouldn't feel terrible, but the weapons are awful and here's why, and knowing is half the battle.

This post is just shameful. And you started out with such constructive contributions.

[1453 R]

If only he'd gone to such lengths in his opening post, rather than being forced to backpedal throughout half this thread when people called him out on his tone.

It's sad, because some of the other points he makes in that post are solid. Anything capable of moving faster than eighty klicks an hour needs to stopignoring base caps – they won't get off your base and fight just because you call them dirty names in all chat. A coordinated charge into the teeth of LRM players is the best solution one has if there's no avenue of approaching said players from cover – and LRM players with any sense tend to stay away from places where they can be approached under cover. I have my own notions where ammunition storage is concerned, especially with the rising awareness in the game these days that it doesn't take many licks to get to the Tootsie Roll center of your ammo legs...but it's enough to get new players to actually think about where and how they're storing their ammo.

Unfortunately the entire thread was derailed by inflammatory binary statements – 'these weapons are awesome and you should use them, and these weapons are garbage and using them makes you a joke/gimps your team.' Statements Victor knew would provoke exactly the response he got, if he's anywhere near as intelligent as he seems to be. Nor was any explanation actually given in the original post for why any given weapon was on the junk list. For a post/guide that assumes it's educating brand new, completely raw players without the sense to come in out of the rain, there's a shocking lack of anything remotely like explanation in the original post. Which, by the way, contributed quite a bit to it coming off as far more contentious and bitter than helpful and constructive.

There's already far, far, far too much contentious and bitter in this snake pit. We don't need more of it

[Emetivore]

Terrible post. Bad advice.

[Dawnstealer]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

There's plenty of guides out there, but after seeing a massive decline in build quality even amongst pugs lately, I figure this is worth repeating - the list of what not to do. [BUT WHAT IF...] No, not even then! NEVER!

1: Mount a Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, AC/10, LBX/10, Machine Gun, Flamer, ER Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, NARC, or less LRMs (per volley) than 20. These guns are horrendous and you're already gimping your build right out of the gate with them! Try better guns.

2: Assume people won't cap you because of "honor." They're going to cap you. If you're getting in a light/medium 'mech, and you see someone going for your base, it's your role to try to stop them. Stop just waltzing by and assuming the heavies will go back for it!

3: Freezing like a deer in headlights at LRM boats. In particular in casual PUG games, LRM boats are very very easy to counter. You just have to rush up on them so they cannot defend themselves up close, or stay at a distance popping shots out of their range near steep cover. Don't just ignore them or wander around in circles. I've seen LRM boats take out teams that could smash them 50 times over! Next time you see an LRM 'mech, try to figure out how to exploit it's blind spots!

4: Storing your ammo in your XL Engine side. More 'mechs die to this than anything. Jam it in your arms, head, legs.. but stop sticking it in the side that will cause you to die if it blows up! I kill more 'mechs to that..

5: Taking horrendously mismatched weaponry. Don't take a fast firing gun, a slow firing gun, a long firing gun, a fast firing gun and then configure them in a way you need to fire a little at a time. You're making your build a mess. You either want to go sustained damage of burst damage, but mounting both is a one way ticket to failure.

There's good stuff in the original post, so I'm just going to take the parts I'm going to comment on.

The good:

#2: Assume someone is going to try to cap your base in Conquest. ESPECIALLY in a PUG. The trick here is one of three strategies: 1) stay close to base as a group and defend; 2) have one or two (NO MORE) fast-movers hang with the pack and be on the lookout to return to base when the commando/spider/jenner goes for the cap; 3) be close enough to their base with enough of your guys that you can cap faster than the one or two that will try to cap yours (5 beats 2 up until about the halfway point). NEVER send half or more of the group back to base. EVER.

#3: LRM boats: DEFINITELY roar up into their face. If you can. Use cover, maybe even use the fact they're shooting at someone else to close the distance, but get within that 180m and watch as the missiles harmlessly bounce off your face. Best feeling ever (I don't get out much).

#4: XL engines: if you're taking a mech with XL engines, hopefully it's a mech with tiny side torsos that don't get plinked out too often. Especially in a Cataphract, Stalker, Atlas, or Awesome, XL engines are a "Please kill me" button because people WILL knock out your side torsos typically before they chop off anything else. So while I agree putting ammo in a torso with an XL engine is asking for death, chances are also pretty good that, if someone is blowing through your side torso with the XL engine/ammo combo, you're dead anyway, so load that tub up.

Okay, now the "bad." Quotes on this, because a lot of this is playing style.

This is my Ilya build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1ed4556e86232de

REAL simple and uses two LB10s and two ERLLs.

WHY WOULD I BUILD SOMETHING SO STUPID???

Well, because it owns. At least when I pilot it. And I'm not saying I'm some awesome, amazing pilot; I'm saying that, because of the way I play the Ilya, that build is GOBS of fun and horrifically effective [caveat: for me]. I tried any number of builds before settling on that one, but for some reason, it just works for me.

A lot of builds are that way. When I first started playing this game, I would go for enormous alpha builds, but that's not really what makes an effective build. I had a Misery that something in the range of a 72 point alpha, if I remember right, but I ended up using one with 2 ERPPCs, an AC20, and a MPL.

What I've found is effective is to have something, anything, that can do even a little damage at range (probably not an AC2, unless you can run three or more), say 5 points of damage +.

The PPC is a great weapon, but it's not instantaneous, and if you miss with it, which is easy to do at close ranges, that's it: you have to wait until it cycles up. With the LL (and ERLL, etc), it's a beam, so you have a chance to "sweep" it over a target, even one that's moving fast.

Damage-wise, a LPL may not seem worth the cost, weight, or heat, but like all pulse lasers, it is very effective against smaller, faster targets and does not have to stay "on point" as long other lasers, but benefits from being able to "sweep." Not recommended for smaller mechs, but on Assaults and even Heavies, they're at least worth considering if you want mid- to close-range punch.

This kind of goes for #1 and #5: I like to have something that can hit at long ranges (LRMs - enough to be effective (yes, 20+ combined volley), ER/PPC, or ERLL (which really does have some huge range - more than an LRM)) and then something that can hit at close ranges and hurt enough to catch someone's attention or kill them if I/my team beat them up enough at range.

That Ilya build above is effective for a few reasons (because I like numbered lists): 1) it's agile enough for a heavy to get around the battlefield and get out of most trouble if I find myself, for example, facing an Assault Lance; 2) the ERLLs let me hit people basically from across the battlefield, on most maps - you poke someone enough times, they're going to duck for cover, or mindlessly charge you - both work to your advantage; 3) the LB10Xs, especially two fired at once, are massively effective at taking down Light to Medium mechs in a couple volleys, and can take out even mildly damaged mechs fairly easily.

Machine guns aren't amazing, but they can be effective if you actually AIM at components where the armor has been stripped. It's also fairly good at making someone panic when their whole mech begins to light up. Of course, you can't JUST have MGs, but as a backup, light weapon, they aren't bad.

No argument about the AC5 or AC10 or Flamer or NARC, though. Still haven't found a build where I liked that more than just about anything else. I think I originally mounted a Flamer on the CT of my Misery just because I wanted it to look like it was breathing fire, but it's truly worthless right now. And NARC is wildly inferior to TAG.

[Byzan]

"1: Mount a Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, AC/10, LBX/10, Machine Gun, Flamer, ER Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, NARC, or less LRMs (per volley) than 20. These guns are horrendous and you're already gimping your build right out of the gate with them! Try better guns."

I really disagree with this, though I wont comment on flamers or LRM's because I dont use them. I have experimented and worked on builds that I've found work well that use all the other weapons. While I do think some could use some small balance changes that doesn't mean they are "gimp" or useless at all.

Even MPL's I mean it doesn't make sense that they are twise the weight, less range and more heat for only 1 point extra damage and a sightly shorter fire time compared to standard mediums. but i've still found builds where they work a bit better and the extra weight cost wasn't too much of a hit.

sure some balancing needs to happen but that's nop reason not to completely ignore this list.

[Erata]

Dawnstealer, on 30 July 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

This is my Ilya build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1ed4556e86232de

My Marmolade Build
2x Gauss 5tonne Ammo
1x PPC (You can even load coolant and swap for ER-Pepsi)
It's my favorite robot.

Use 3 Mlas in place of the PPC and you can load on extra ammo, or upgrade back up to the 280 XL w/ 6 tons ammo and slightly more armor.

Edited by Erata, 30 July 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[Byzan]

have to say actually LL's are my fav weapon, after using them a lot I've become pretty good with them. PPC's will miss more often on small targets moving targets and at long range when basically every shot with a LL will do some damage and a full hit is only 1 point behind a PPC

LPL'***** harder than a PPC and are better on moving targets, they do cause more heat and have less range but they still have their uses.

[1453 R]

Victor is posting from the perspective of a highly competitive, every-scrap-counts league player. At those levels, all of the guns he mentioned are Junk are, in fact, largely junk. The problem arises when a man fails to realize that his game is not the only game, and that there is an intermediate tier - call it 'Good', between 'Great!' and 'Junk' - of weapons which, while not quite up to league play standards (what is, really?), are good enough for us solo-dropping scrubs.

This intermediate tier includes the large laser (don't pretend it didn't get hurt bad by heatscale, because it did), LRMs, and the AC/5. These three weapons are not complete bunk in our games. The large laser is still a good choice for a heavier-weight weapon on medium and light BattleMechs looking for some extra punch, Void's touched on the AC/5, and LRMs scale directly with player skill. It just sucks that they scale directly with opposing player skill rather than the user's, most of the time. An agile enough BattleMech can force LRMs at times by finding the right firing positions (this is why your pure-LRM Stalker is a really bad idea and needs to grow some new guns), and there is no better weapon for crushing the unwary. Just need to find the unwary first.

Most everything else needs work. For the sake of cooperation, and because Victor never did explain why all his junk tier guns are junk:

-The AC/10 still requires eighty percent of the resource expenditure of the AC/20 for fifty percent of the return. This still kinda blows.

-The LBX/10 doesn't do enough damage to justify its scattershot attack (which sucks because judging by awesomeness alone the LBX is easily the best gun in MechWarrior).

-Pulse lasers give too little return for the extra weight and heat investment over standards, especially given that the weight penalty is only one of three drawbacks pulse lasers suffer (weight, heat, range) in exchange for a pair of minor perks (duration, damage). The upcoming reduction in beam duration will help, but as I remarked earlier, that and cutting the weapons' cycle times would be a start on fixing pulse lasers. And hypercompetitive league players will still say "I can take a seven-ton energy weapon that deals ten damage over half a second, out to 300 meters...or I can take a seven-ton energy weapon that does ten damage instantly, out to 540 meters, for less heat. F*** this laser" and have something of an unfortunate point.

-The ER large laser offers a significant increase in heat over the standard large laser for...what does it actually give you, again? Only on Alpine will you actually notice the extra range, and only on everywhere will you notice the extra heat, unless you're a Spider, a Locust, or maybe a Shadow Hawk. Maybe.

-Machine guns only even approach being good in groups, which punishes any 'Mech that can't pile on three or four of the damn things. No, replacing the AC/20 on your VTR-9B with three machine guns is not an equivalent trade. Screw timelines. We need machine gun arrays back as an intermediate option for light and medium 'Mechs with low numbers of ballistic hardpoints.

-Flamers and NARC...come on.

We've all had great games with our favorite 'Mechs and our favorite guns. It's why we still play them, why we're still chugging along. I still remember my Flame's best game everz back on Caustic, with 600+ damage, four kills and four assists using its LBX, SRM-4 and brace of medium lasers. We play what we like, and no amount of Leagueians giving us grief for not playing Highlanders will generally change that - but we all know where they're coming from, guys. Even if they're complete jerks any time they deign to talk to us.

Edited by 1453 R, 31 July 2013 - 05:09 AM.

[ni4h]

Guys i think you miss the true purpose of all these nerfs to hi alpha and overall hard hitting weapons.

The purpose is to nerf heavies and assaults overall in favour of mediums - to make ppl shy away from heavies and assaults and move to mediums which currenlty seem to be least popular weight class and according to fluff they should form the core of any mech force.

And so happens medium dont suffer much from changes already made as they are capable of mounting two heavy hitting weapons tops. coincidence?

Edited by ni4h, 31 July 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Erata]

ni4h, on 31 July 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Guys i think you miss the true purpose of all these nerfs to hi alpha and overall hard hitting weapons.

The purpose is to nerf heavies and assaults overall in favour of mediums - to make ppl shy away from heavies and assaults and move to mediums which currenlty seem to be least popular weight class and according to fluff they should form the core of any mech force.

And so happens medium dont suffer much from changes already made as they are capable of mounting two heavy hitting weapons tops. coincidence?

The nerfs to high alpha don't effectively reduce the DPS of the current metagame which can only change through patch updates to the game: Long range weapons (PPCs + Gauss in particular) are the most flexible/effective/heat-efficient weapons, and by combining them, do not suffer from alpha penalty.

[Vellinious]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

There's plenty of guides out there, but after seeing a massive decline in build quality even amongst pugs lately, I figure this is worth repeating - the list of what not to do. [BUT WHAT IF...] No, not even then! NEVER!

1: Mount a Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, AC/10, LBX/10, Machine Gun, Flamer, ER Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, NARC, or less LRMs (per volley) than 20. These guns are horrendous and you're already gimping your build right out of the gate with them! Try better guns.

2: Assume people won't cap you because of "honor." They're going to cap you. If you're getting in a light/medium 'mech, and you see someone going for your base, it's your role to try to stop them. Stop just waltzing by and assuming the heavies will go back for it!

3: Freezing like a deer in headlights at LRM boats. In particular in casual PUG games, LRM boats are very very easy to counter. You just have to rush up on them so they cannot defend themselves up close, or stay at a distance popping shots out of their range near steep cover. Don't just ignore them or wander around in circles. I've seen LRM boats take out teams that could smash them 50 times over! Next time you see an LRM 'mech, try to figure out how to exploit it's blind spots!

4: Storing your ammo in your XL Engine side. More 'mechs die to this than anything. Jam it in your arms, head, legs.. but stop sticking it in the side that will cause you to die if it blows up! I kill more 'mechs to that..

5: Taking horrendously mismatched weaponry. Don't take a fast firing gun, a slow firing gun, a long firing gun, a fast firing gun and then configure them in a way you need to fire a little at a time. You're making your build a mess. You either want to go sustained damage of burst damage, but mounting both is a one way ticket to failure.

-

In the interest of reminding everyone to "stay calm" after the SRM buff / heat nerf, I'd like to recommend you all:

- PPC, ER PPC, and Gauss still are top tier and work well in tandem. Consider them!
- AC/20s and SRMs work reasonably well together, allowing for an infighter build.
- Large Lasers are terrible now. You need more than 2 to be effective, which ruins your heat.
- Streaks are terrible now. Swap them for regular SRMs for a big boost in damage!
- Medium lasers are still a reliable backup and are far better than MPL or SPL.
- I cannot stress again how bad the guns in #1 point are, be it for the ER Large's long discharge (making it awful at sniping), the LPL's horrendous heat-to-damage or small LRM clusters inability to pierce AMS. Stop trying to make it work, it just won't!

I run a dual AC10, 4 ML cataphract 3D that I have a lot of success in. A medium range mech with the ability to do damage in close when the fighting becomes face to face. Something the ERPPC's and PPC's aren't so good at, as they have hit registration problems inside 200 meters, and get worse the closer you are.

[BlacKcuD]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

There's plenty of guides out there, but after seeing a massive decline in build quality even amongst pugs lately, I figure this is worth repeating - the list of what not to do. [BUT WHAT IF...] No, not even then! NEVER!

1: Mount a Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, AC/10, LBX/10, Machine Gun, Flamer, ER Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, NARC, or less LRMs (per volley) than 20. These guns are horrendous and you're already gimping your build right out of the gate with them! Try better guns.
- I cannot stress again how bad the guns in #1 point are, be it for the ER Large's long discharge (making it awful at sniping), the LPL's horrendous heat-to-damage or small LRM clusters inability to pierce AMS. Stop trying to make it work, it just won't!

Imho, that list is too negative. AC/5s and LPLs definitely have their place. LPL Damage/Heat ratio is actually on par with Medium Lasers! The main problem is their high tonnage requirement. They are niche weapons for unorthodox builds but they are not worthless (for example when you have few hardpoints, but a lot of free tons like on the Misery). A friend of mine is kicking a*s with his ERPPC+2xAC5+X Dragon Slayer. I myself have piloted a Misery with 2xLPL+AC/20 to great success.

However, I concur on most of the other weapons. LBX10 is kinda stupid in its current form, same goes for all other weapons you mentioned. ER Large Lasers, MPL, Flamers and NARC are completely useless at the moment since you always have a more effective thing to select instead which does the same thing better at a reduced cost.

Edited by BlacKcuD, 02 August 2013 - 05:29 PM.

[Void Angel]

1453 R, on 31 July 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

-The AC/10 still requires eighty percent of the resource expenditure of the AC/20 for fifty percent of the return. This still kinda blows.

-The ER large laser offers a significant increase in heat over the standard large laser for...what does it actually give you, again? Only on Alpine will you actually notice the extra range, and only on everywhere will you notice the extra heat, unless you're a Spider, a Locust, or maybe a Shadow Hawk. Maybe.

-Machine guns only even approach being good in groups, which punishes any 'Mech that can't pile on three or four of the damn things. No, replacing the AC/20 on your VTR-9B with three machine guns is not an equivalent trade. Screw timelines. We need machine gun arrays back as an intermediate option for light and medium 'Mechs with low numbers of ballistic hardpoints.

Eh, I gotta disagree slightly on a couple of points here; not in substance, but rather in details:

The biggest problem with the AC/10 isn't that it doesn't compare well to the AC/20. It does require 80% of the AC/20s tonnage - but it also does 80% of the damage, once you factor in rate of fire, and it does so at twice the range. The alpha damage isn't generally a good trade for the extra range, but it might be if you're planning on a longer-range build than the AC/20 really supports. But that's where you run into the game-breaker for the Redheaded Stepchild of Autocannons - because of the range difference, you're not really choosing between the AC/10 and the AC/20. You're choosing between the AC/10 and the Ultra AC/5. The UAC/5 has a third again the range of the AC/10, with effectively equal alpha damage under most circumstances. It also boasts substantially higher dps - enough, in fact to entirely negate the higher alpha of the AC/10. Sure, it jams, but even still, it remains one of the best ballistic weapons out there. And with the tonnage and slots you save, you can even pile in two extra tons of ammo to support the faster rate of fire and pwnage. So that's why I'd say the AC/10 isn't a very good autocannon.

The ERLLaser, on the other hand, actually does give you a useful increase in range - I've tested it on my Atlas, and I certainly found it to be noticeable. The problem is that the extra range isn't enough to justify the extra heat. It's nice, and I notice the extra damage, but it simply isn't good enough (which is why I think they're lowering the base heat on the weapon - or they will soon.)

Pretty much as described, Machineguns are primarily an option for lights who can't afford the tonnage of a man-sized autocannon - but only if you're out of other slot types. This is changing, however, with critical hits now dealing internal structure damage in addition to damaging components (coming soon to a patch near you!) Not so much a correction as a heads-up. Hopefully, this will help machine guns become a fun and useful weapon.

[Victor Morson]

Johnny Reb, on 29 July 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

I don't get why the erLL is so bad. I prefer reg LL unless I have a way over heat efficient build like my fast Cent-D. If I want more range than 2 meds in the ct and am very heat efficient why not get the extra range of the erLL at that same tonnage.

edit: also my locust prime will definitely have an erLL with 2 machine guns in it.

Because on a Cent D you're far better off just using two medium lasers, because you're going to want SRMs/LRMs and a LOT of speed. So the one scenario ER LL might have no drawbacks isn't that. Maybe on the Kintaro it'd have a place as it is now.

The bottom line is the ER Large's heat is not worth the extra range, because the extra range does not play well with the beam duration. That's pretty much the size of it. You'd paying a ton of heat for a weapon that's only advantage is negated. Perhaps if they buff that in the coming patch, my stance on the ER LL will change accordingly.

Vellinious, on 01 August 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

I run a dual AC10, 4 ML cataphract 3D that I have a lot of success in. A medium range mech with the ability to do damage in close when the fighting becomes face to face. Something the ERPPC's and PPC's aren't so good at, as they have hit registration problems inside 200 meters, and get worse the closer you are.

I keep reminding people that "have a lot of success in" isn't a good baseline. This is because there's a lot of folks in PUG games who simply ignore you and let you blast away with any weapon, making it look like your build is doing very well. I've seen many, many pilots bring builds they assure us will work great into serious games (including the one you cited) and they are rolled over like a small speed bump. It's hard to realize it until it happens.

Also ER PPCs are actually more accurate at 200 meters than AC10s. The velocity is far, far higher.

BlacKcuD, on 02 August 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Imho, that list is too negative. AC/5s and LPLs definitely have their place. LPL Damage/Heat ratio is actually on par with Medium Lasers! The main problem is their high tonnage requirement. They are niche weapons for unorthodox builds but they are not worthless (for example when you have few hardpoints, but a lot of free tons like on the Misery). A friend of mine is kicking a*s with his ERPPC+2xAC5+X Dragon Slayer. I myself have piloted a Misery with 2xLPL+AC/20 to great success.

The AC/5 has no place as it's essentially inferior to the AC/2 and UAC/5, having the drawbacks of the UAC without it's ability to burst fire. It's just a bad gun stuck between too worlds, with the same heat issues of the AC/2.

The LPL however is flat out bad, and you are better off using multiple mediums. Essentially you would be better off for the same tonnage taking an ER PPC, which delivers nearly the same DPS without the range drawbacks and more up-front hit power, or a slew of mediums on the right build.

Once upon a time it was a great gun, but it was destroyed and as of the time I write this, not even remotely repaired.

Johnny Reb, on 29 July 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

I don't get why the erLL is so bad. I prefer reg LL unless I have a way over heat efficient build like my fast Cent-D. If I want more range than 2 meds in the ct and am very heat efficient why not get the extra range of the erLL at that same tonnage.

edit: also my locust prime will definitely have an erLL with 2 machine guns in it.

Because on a Cent D you're far better off just using two medium lasers, because you're going to want SRMs/LRMs and a LOT of speed. So the one scenario ER LL might have no drawbacks isn't that. Maybe on the Kintaro it'd have a place as it is now.

The bottom line is the ER Large's heat is not worth the extra range, because the extra range does not play well with the beam duration. That's pretty much the size of it. You'd paying a ton of heat for a weapon that's only advantage is negated. Perhaps if they buff that in the coming patch, my stance on the ER LL will change accordingly.

Vellinious, on 01 August 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

I run a dual AC10, 4 ML cataphract 3D that I have a lot of success in. A medium range mech with the ability to do damage in close when the fighting becomes face to face. Something the ERPPC's and PPC's aren't so good at, as they have hit registration problems inside 200 meters, and get worse the closer you are.

I keep reminding people that "have a lot of success in" isn't a good baseline. This is because there's a lot of folks in PUG games who simply ignore you and let you blast away with any weapon, making it look like your build is doing very well. I've seen many, many pilots bring builds they assure us will work great into serious games (including the one you cited) and they are rolled over like a small speed bump. It's hard to realize it until it happens.

Also ER PPCs are actually more accurate at 200 meters than AC10s. The velocity is far, far higher.

BlacKcuD, on 02 August 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Imho, that list is too negative. AC/5s and LPLs definitely have their place. LPL Damage/Heat ratio is actually on par with Medium Lasers! The main problem is their high tonnage requirement. They are niche weapons for unorthodox builds but they are not worthless (for example when you have few hardpoints, but a lot of free tons like on the Misery). A friend of mine is kicking a*s with his ERPPC+2xAC5+X Dragon Slayer. I myself have piloted a Misery with 2xLPL+AC/20 to great success.

The AC/5 has no place as it's essentially inferior to the AC/2 and UAC/5, having the drawbacks of the UAC without it's ability to burst fire. It's just a bad gun stuck between too worlds, with the same heat issues of the AC/2.

The LPL however is flat out bad, and you are better off using multiple mediums. Essentially you would be better off for the same tonnage taking an ER PPC, which delivers nearly the same DPS without the range drawbacks and more up-front hit power, or a slew of mediums on the right build.

Once upon a time it was a great gun, but it was destroyed and as of the time I write this, not even remotely repaired.

[Victor Morson]

Dawnstealer, on 30 July 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

This is my Ilya build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1ed4556e86232de

REAL simple and uses two LB10s and two ERLLs.

WHY WOULD I BUILD SOMETHING SO STUPID???

That is a really good question.

In all seriousness, that build is awful. Again you're seeing "anything at all can work against a bad target" PUG base lining. If you try against a properly build 'mech it will literally die in seconds.

Someone was running a similar setup in a Victor the other day and specifically called me out (recognizing me from the forums). I was fortunate enough to find him isolated and simply walked my Cent into his chest and fired until he was dead, it barely even scratched the paint (and I was piloting all-in aggressively). It's just a bad weapons setup incapable of delivering acceptable damage at any range.

EDIT: Also this effects more than just "upper tiers." Ever notice how there's always a couple guys on any given team with 5 times the damage/kills of anyone else? Odds are they are just in properly configured 'mechs, giving them a massive leg up right from the start.

Edited by Victor Morson, 04 August 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[Void Angel]

Victor Morson, on 04 August 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

The AC/5 has no place as it's essentially inferior to the AC/2 and UAC/5, having the drawbacks of the UAC without it's ability to burst fire. It's just a bad gun stuck between too worlds, with the same heat issues of the AC/2. (emphasis added)

This part of weapon balance is a math problem with graphics, and you have the wrong answer. The AC/2 runs nearly three times hotter per hardpoint than the AC/5 - if you compare hps/ton, it's even hotter. As well, the AC/2's ratio of dps/hps is a flat 2.0 - while the AC/5 rounds up to a solid 5.0. Again, if you actually compare the weapons on a ton-for-ton basis, the AC/2 is even hotter compared to the the AC/5. There is really no basis for claiming that the AC/5 is a hot weapon: the heat per second it generates is exactly the same as a small laser. As I have already pointed out to you, a quad-AC/5 Cataphract build would take longer to overheat than to shoot every round of ammunition it could possibly carry - with just the ten double engine heatsinks.

After all the time you've spent dismissing people's anecdotal arguments, you seem to be relying on your own personal impressions rather than hard facts.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 August 2013 - 08:57 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Void Angel, on 04 August 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

This part of weapon balance is a math problem with graphics, and you have the wrong answer. The AC/2 runs nearly three times hotter per hardpoint than the AC/5 - if you compare hps/ton, it's even hotter. As well, the AC/2's ratio of dps/hps is a flat 2.0 - while the AC/5 rounds up to a solid 5.0. Again, if you actually compare the weapons on a ton-for-ton basis, the AC/2 is even hotter compared to the the AC/5. There is really no basis for claiming that the AC/5 is a hot weapon: the heat per second it generates is exactly the same as a small laser. As I have already pointed out to you, a quad-AC/5 Cataphract build would take longer to overheat than to shoot every round of ammunition it could possibly carry - with just the ten double engine heatsinks.

After all the time you've spent dismissing people's anecdotal arguments, you seem to be relying on your own personal impressions rather than hard facts.

The only reason the Autocannon 2 seems to run much hotter is that it refires 3 times as quickly - one of the reasons the AC/2 is a better gun overall. The heat per shot is the same, even if the heat per second is lower - which is only the case due to the massively inferior fire rate of the AC/5.

I will say though, the AC/5 fails for enough reasons that heat is probably not the biggest one.

[Mirenheart]

I absolutely Love running with the LBX/10, even if it is bad.

What I'm hoping for is that when collisions get added, LBX's get the buff they need, not in the form of Damage, but in being better at knocking down Mechs than any other gun, like shotgun ammo should.

[Void Angel]

Victor Morson, on 05 August 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

The only reason the Autocannon 2 seems to run much hotter is that it refires 3 times as quickly - one of the reasons the AC/2 is a better gun overall. The heat per shot is the same, even if the heat per second is lower - which is only the case due to the massively inferior fire rate of the AC/5.

I will say though, the AC/5 fails for enough reasons that heat is probably not the biggest one.

That is flat-out ridiculous. The AC/2 does not "seem" to run much hotter than the AC/5; it does run hotter than an AC/5 - precisely because of its rate of fire. You can't rationally claim that a core weapon statistic is just a perceptual difference; that's like saying a Gauss Rifle only seems to run cool because of its low rate of fire. After all, the heat per shot is the same, even if the heat per second is lower - which is "only" the case due to the massively inferior firing rate of the Gauss Rifle. In actual fact, the heat per shot (and per damage) of the AC/5 is among the best in the game, as I have pointed out to you in hard, inarguable numbers. That you continue to argue in the face of irrefutable facts damages your credibility.

Similarly, as I have already pointed out, while the AC/5 should be replaced by the UAC/5 or a heavy beam weapon whenever feasible, there exist cases (again, the Cataphract - 4X) where this cannot be done - and the AC/5 is still a solid choice in those instances.