625 replies to this topic

[Hillslam]

12v6 in PvE with my mates battling some ubermech bosses? Sure thing.

12v6 in PvP? F U

12v6 works when you're the player in the sky moving the pieces around.

12 v 6 doesnt work when you're the chumps IN the 12. F that.

Also - Clan Tech as end-game content? ROFL

If the clan mechwarriors were such bred-for-combat uber warriors, then YOU, the clan player, should be too right? I mean you should be able to beat anyone else with a wet gym towell. Why do you need your uber tech crutching you up?

Why? Because you actually are no better than the rest of the playerbase, and will have to fight to get your kills. Just like the "top tier" competitive players who when NOT cuddled up amongst their teammates cannot outshoot many of the lone wolf puggers out there in 1 on 1 combat.


And as far as LORE goes: once the tech field leveled out years after the invasion, AFAIK innersphere pilots were wiping the tables with the vat grown clan pilots 1-1. Their eliteness was a sham.

Clans were broken in 1994. They've been broken ever since. KUDOS to PGI for trying something RIGHT!

Edited by Hillslam, 20 December 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Chrithu]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 December 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

But I want my ENEMY to have the advance tech... How is that asking for easy mode again? Please explain? Your argument does not address my position.

Exactly. My argument does not address your position.

Frankly it isn't even truely my own opinion about the situation. I just wanted to mock Death Storm a bit because I found his argumentation to be too much trying to troll people in favor of the nerfs ;-).

All lore stuff apart one has to admit that from the perspective of being a multiplayer gamer the nerfs aren't completely uncalled for. Even the OP of this thread admits that some form of balancing should take place. In theory I really like his idea. But I doubt it is doable in practice. To someone new to the game it will be very hard to get across why he should want to take part on the outnumbered side of a battle even if his mech in theory should be able to take on 2 or more IS mechs without getting into trouble.

On the other hand seeing how messed up heat and armor systems in this game currently are I doubt that Clantech with canon properties really would prove to be overpowered in practice. It would certainly be less overpowered than in Tabletop. Most of the weapons do same damage as IS weapons and the slot and tonnage advantages aren't that meaningful in my view since Ghost Heat will still be a limiting factor to boating that as abonimal as it is still is working in a way. I for one see less PPC or LL boating than prior to ghost heat so it did what it was supposed to do.

I would say I am neither for nor against the nerfs. If they'd decide to use canon clantech values and see how that plays out I'd be fine with that. But I am also fine with their preemptive balancing measures. If I had to decide? I would definately see to it that canon valued clantech gets tested on the public test server for at least two months.

Edited by Jason Parker, 20 December 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[990Dreams]

pbiggz, on 19 December 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

I think i've figured out what you're trying to say. Clan tech should be "end game" much like raiding tier gear in warcraft, or legendary items in diablo. This would work well in singleplayer or PVE specific environments, but unfortunately it doesn't work in a PVP environment. I understand the feeling that new players shouldn't be coddled, but remember this game has one of the worst learning curves, and its problematic. It DOES NOT need to become any worse by making clan tech the only competitive technology, and higher prices will only serve to increase the curve. It won't have the effect you're thinking of.

What you think will happen is most people will have IS tech with a few clan tech players, but in reality what will happen is players will grind in IS tech till they have their clan tech, then a good chunk of players will have clan tech, slowing down any new players who want to get to that "end game". Since clan tech would be so much better, IS tech will be next to worthless against it. Even still, players will slowly grind towards it if they havent already given up (and most new players give up in this kind of meta). This will further exacerbate the problem by slowly increasing the curve even more as new players gain clan tech.

Not only is this a nightmare scenario for new players and old players alike, it is also a nightmare scenario for the dreaded "Pay to win" boogieman, as the increased costs and grind to get to clan tech will make MC that much more lucrative, and drive off those who dont want to pay at all. You could say that clan tech is only available for cbills, but that is a massive tech base that is now poorly monetized, and the game needs money to continue. People sure as hell won't be buying IS tech with real money, so where will PGI be making its profit then.

Tech evolves. And besides, we already have end-game tech right now (AC/20 for example [or at least till clan tech comes out]). Clan tech should have a higher price for higher power. And not super super super high (1m ) but higher than IS tech (3-5 decent matches [110k , just as an example]).

[pbiggz]

DavidHurricane, on 20 December 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Tech evolves. And besides, we already have end-game tech right now (AC/20 for example [or at least till clan tech comes out]). Clan tech should have a higher price for higher power. And not super super super high (1m ) but higher than IS tech (3-5 decent matches [110k , just as an example]).

The problem is, "end game" doesn't work in this kind of game. End game means that one person clearly has X tech, and the other has Y tech, and X is better than Y every time. Since this game isn't world of warcraft, that simply doesn't make sense here.

Also, AC20s are not end game tech. ER ppcs are not end game tech. They are available to anyone at any time provided they have the cash.

The whole point of this game is PGI is trying to avoid the arms race that has plagued all the past mechwarrior games. What you seem to WANT is an arms race, and that is just stupid.

Edited by pbiggz, 20 December 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[990Dreams]

pbiggz, on 20 December 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

The problem is, "end game" doesn't work in this kind of game. End game means that one person clearly has X tech, and the other has Y tech, and X is better than Y every time. Since this game isn't world of warcraft, that simply doesn't make sense here.

Also, AC20s are not end game tech. ER ppcs are not end game tech. They are available to anyone at any time provided they have the cash.

The whole point of this game is PGI is trying to avoid the arms race that has plagued all the past mechwarrior games. What you seem to WANT is an arms race, and that is just stupid.

You seem to warp my words to match your view of me. And guess what: a war is an arms race. Don't be obtuse about it. A noob has just as good of a chance to buy IS tech as a founder. Getting 90K C-Bills for a Clan Laser isn't hard. And if it is, start by using IS tech and learn he works, then you'll gradually get the skills and C-Bills for Clan tech. The player(s) should have to evolve to reach higher levels. Just like a soldier has to prove himself worthy of being a commander, or how an engineer works his way up from cleaning to helping with the engineering. You don't start out on an even level with the veterans (tech or otherwise) and suggesting that someone should is stupid.

The point is: If you want it, work for it. If you don't want to work for it, you don't want it enough.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 20 December 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Thorn Hallis, on 09 December 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Because not many players will willingly enter a match knowing that their 'Mech and weapons are inferior by a wide margin?

I beg to differ. I have played in Planetary Leagues where IS players outnumber the Clans. IS-centric players are IS because they dislike the Clans so much and Clan-centric players are Clan because, well, they prefer the Clans to the IS and it is not always about the tech. I do not think this will be any different. I like the challenge of being on the short side - you tend to work harder. How often have you had 1-2 members disco in a pug? I always say "make it count" and sometimes our side wins.

And the difference between the techs is not that wide - it is all about the player and a poor player piloting Clan tech will still be a poor player.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 20 December 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Gremlich Johns, on 20 December 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

I beg to differ. I have played in Planetary Leagues where IS players outnumber the Clans. IS-centric players are IS because they dislike the Clans so much and Clan-centric players are Clan because, well, they prefer the Clans to the IS and it is not always about the tech. I do not think this will be any different.

I am pretty sure this would happen if the vast majority of the players even cared about what Inner Sphere and Clans are..

[Mao of DC]

Gremlich Johns, on 20 December 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

I beg to differ. I have played in Planetary Leagues where IS players outnumber the Clans. IS-centric players are IS because they dislike the Clans so much and Clan-centric players are Clan because, well, they prefer to be slavers. the Clans to the IS and it is not always about the tech. I do not think this will be any different. I like the challenge of being on the short side - you tend to work harder. How often have you had 1-2 members disco in a pug? I always say "make it count" and sometimes our side wins.

And the difference between the techs is not that wide - it is all about the player and a poor player piloting Clan tech will still be a poor player.

There fixed that for you. After all what are Bondsmen if not slaves.

Edited by Mao of DC, 20 December 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Since IS factions will have access to Clan mechs, keeping them more powerful will severely imbalance the game.

[Thorn Hallis]

Gremlich Johns, on 20 December 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

I beg to differ. I have played in Planetary Leagues where IS players outnumber the Clans.

And they played which game?

The thing in planetary leagues is that at one point most of the factions are allready taken, so a unit that comes to late has to play as something they may never ever wanted.

[Void Angel]

Gladewolf, on 19 December 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Running a Star vs a Company will not invalidate the current mechs in game. No Mixing however, should be allowed, at least through the invasion...

Running tabletop-derived Clans versus Inner Sphere always invalidates Inner Sphere tech. Equal numbers mean that the Adjective Animals ride roughshod over their enemies with a giant newbie hammer glorious skill and Clan honor. If you run asymmetrical teams with one side having a Clannhammer, you have to give so many people to the other team that it's like a pack of scavengers dragging down a lion. The Adjective Animals bestride the battlefield like giants, while their inferiors try to drag them down with numbers. Egotistically pleasing to the Space Fascists, but who wants to be the jackal instead of the lion? A few roleplayers, that's who. But the fact that a few masochists are willing to suffer doesn't change the situation.

The only way that the Clans can possibly be balanced in a game is a point-based army building system. But that won't work in this format. You can't assign multiple 'mechs to a single player at once like you can in tabletop or Mechwarrior Tactics - and asymmetric team sizes has problems, as I keep explaining ad nauseum.

The Clans cannot be the supertechnology newbie hammer some people were expecting - and they shouldn't be.

[Void Angel]

DavidHurricane, on 20 December 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Tech evolves. And besides, we already have end-game tech right now (AC/20 for example [or at least till clan tech comes out]). Clan tech should have a higher price for higher power. And not super super super high (1m ) but higher than IS tech (3-5 decent matches [110k , just as an example]).

Clan tech will have a higher c-bill price; that's why the Clan Package is more expensive - but you can't make it a "tier" system without both destroying the monetization of IS tech (and the game needs money to continue) and increasing the value of MC to the point where it really feels like pay to win. In order to avoid destabilizing the game, both as a game and as a business, Clan tech needs to be organically balanced with IS tech.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

DI3T3R, on 20 December 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

They could have turned the Clans into some kind of Hardcore-Mode: Better equipment, but at the same time you are outnumbered AND you are restricted in terms of acceptable tactics.

Perhaps you don't see that the Clans will NOT be outnumbered. If the Clan tech is vastly superior to the IS tech, the playerbase will gravitate towards the Clan tech simply because it's better. Then you no longer have enough people running IS tech to outnumber those with Clan tech.

And don't say, "Then they can just have CvC" because that totally negates the need for ever having made IS tech in the first place.

So in the end, if the Clan tech were to be the Alpha-Omega of weapons tech, then only a few anomalies such as myself and Joe Mallan would even dare run IS tech and every powergaming munchkin to every casual gamer will use the Clan tech by the virtue of it being better.

The Awesome is the prime example of this. It's a plain terrible mech in this game. The only ones that run it are practically those of us that have a TT-deep fascination with them.

[CoolCanuck]

Don't nerf Clan, just force them to use Omni. All their hardpoints can carry any weapon, but aside from weapons and a few things like BAP, they cant change anything(just engines cause gyros and stuff are not changeable in this). Oh and BTW, if you want a well-made mechwarrior game, play Mechwarrior 4. You can download it for free at some places like clancoyote.com. MekTek has dropped all support for MW4 though, so don't look there. MWO is essentially still in development right now because of all the "imbalances".
EDIT: Also, naturally, Clan weapons will produce more heat and cost much more than IS tech.

Edited by Shmo0o, 20 December 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Gladewolf]

Void Angel, on 20 December 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Running tabletop-derived Clans versus Inner Sphere always invalidates Inner Sphere tech. Equal numbers mean that the Adjective Animals ride roughshod over their enemies with a giant newbie hammer glorious skill and Clan honor. If you run asymmetrical teams with one side having a Clannhammer, you have to give so many people to the other team that it's like a pack of scavengers dragging down a lion. The Adjective Animals bestride the battlefield like giants, while their inferiors try to drag them down with numbers. Egotistically pleasing to the Space Fascists, but who wants to be the jackal instead of the lion? A few roleplayers, that's who. But the fact that a few masochists are willing to suffer doesn't change the situation.

The only way that the Clans can possibly be balanced in a game is a point-based army building system. But that won't work in this format. You can't assign multiple 'mechs to a single player at once like you can in tabletop or Mechwarrior Tactics - and asymmetric team sizes has problems, as I keep explaining ad nauseum.

The Clans cannot be the supertechnology newbie hammer some people were expecting - and they shouldn't be.

Nice poem, and as I keep trying to explain...you can't nerf a clan mech anyway...without leaving behind exactly the "newbie hammer" you claim not to want to see......unless they totally break the clan mechs in question.....because they are better in all respects than Inner Sphere mechs...

[Gladewolf]

Void Angel, on 20 December 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Clan tech will have a higher c-bill price; that's why the Clan Package is more expensive - but you can't make it a "tier" system without both destroying the monetization of IS tech (and the game needs money to continue) and increasing the value of MC to the point where it really feels like pay to win. In order to avoid destabilizing the game, both as a game and as a business, Clan tech needs to be organically balanced with IS tech.

How can it be "balanced" AND be more expensive?! AND not tier set? You are losing your mind if you think this WON'T destroy the game and business with that thought process. I would love to see an idea that doesn't involve asymmetric combat that will work! Honestly their best strategy might just be to forget the clans all together.

[Mercer Skye]

My humble opinion is that if they implement battle values, and set the system to allow fewer than 12 and cap at 12, and then match teams at +- some value, it would smooth out things in the end. Would stop lopsided IS vs IS and would definitely prevent lopsided IS vs Clan matches, AND would allow a bit more leeway for letting Clan Tech be superior to IS tech.

AND would allow for the eventual integration of Clan tech into IS 'mechs (which I'm actually hoping they 'lock' at least for some time after Clan Tech arrives)

Edited by Mercer Skye, 20 December 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[Void Angel]

Gladewolf, on 20 December 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Nice poem, and as I keep trying to explain...you can't nerf a clan mech anyway...without leaving behind exactly the "newbie hammer" you claim not to want to see......unless they totally break the clan mechs in question.....because they are better in all respects than Inner Sphere mechs...

You don't know what a newbie hammer is, I see. "Newbie hammer" refers to an ability or piece of equipment that is demonstrably better than alternatives, to the point that counter-play is absent or largely ineffective. That is what tabletop Clan tech is, in an symmetric team environment. Balanced Clan tech, on the other hand, will be a viable alternative which players will choose based on preference - how well the gear does what they want to do and fits their style. Now that you know what the term "newbie hammer," means, you can see how your critique of my "poem" makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 December 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[Void Angel]

Gladewolf, on 20 December 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

How can it be "balanced" AND be more expensive?! AND not tier set? You are losing your mind if you think this WON'T destroy the game and business with that thought process. I would love to see an idea that doesn't involve asymmetric combat that will work! Honestly their best strategy might just be to forget the clans all together.

Rejoice! Making Clan tech (including omnimechs) balanced against IS technology is just the solution you would love to see! Your wish has been granted, just in time for Christmas! Not only does this remove the need for asymmetric teams, but it solves the problem of the extreme disparity in effectiveness (and thus MWO point value) which would result in slavishly adhering to decades-old values published for another game in a totally incompatible format. Making Clan tech a viable alternative would also obviate any reason to throw up your hands and toss a huge amount of content out the window.

As for your opening salvo: You don't seem to understand the relationship between cost, effectiveness, and "tiers" of gear. The cost of gear is utterly independent of the effectiveness of any piece of equipment - sure, all games try to match price to effectiveness, but quality measures how well gear performs in the game, not how much it costs. The only time cost enters into the equation is when your gear wears out, breaks, or can be stolen - but that's not happening in this game. Similarly, a tier system is when the effectiveness of a given class of gear is clearly superior to available equivalents. A textbook example of such would be the various raiding and PvP armor/weapon sets available in games such as WoW and SW:TOR. Being balanced alternatives - "sidegrades," for MMORPG players - is part of the definition of being "not a tier system." So your first two questions are nonsensical: you haven't actually succeeded in asking me anything. Instead you're making an erroneous claim with what you mistakenly thought to be a pair of rhetorical questions.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 December 2013 - 08:06 PM.

[Gladewolf]

Void Angel, on 20 December 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Rejoice! Making Clan tech (including omnimechs) balanced against IS technology is just the solution you would love to see! Your wish has been granted, just in time for Christmas! Not only does this remove the need for asymmetric teams, but it solves the problem of the extreme disparity in effectiveness (and thus MWO point value) which would result in slavishly adhering to decades-old values published for another game in a totally incompatible format. Making Clan tech a viable alternative would also obviate any reason to throw up your hands and toss a huge amount of content out the window.

...It is not possible to balance clan tech without making the mechs in question unrecognizable. Example, 4 ultra ac-2s, 2erppcs, and an LB-10x all on the same mech....now balance that against the Inner Sphere Assault mech of your choice....note that I have just mentioned PART of a stock Diashi load out(it has a couple more weapons)...those are just the major ones....then consider that even though I can't touch the Core of the machine...I can Modify the rest...it has 50 FREE tons of pod space unloaded, it can't be killed by destroying a single side torso, it is armored almost the same as an Atlas and almost ALL of it's weapons are lighter, it's heat sinks take up less space(as do many of the weapons). Even if you made the damage values EXACTLY THE SAME clan mechs would still come out ahead in survivability and firepower. PGI is attempting to sell known Omni mechs( You know those incompatible ones, from that format you don't like?)....not these fantasy "balanced" clan mechs you are referring to. I am also well versed in all of the mentioned MMOs, and am fully aware of the difference between a "sidegrade" and an "upgrade" ...and if there is to be in your world balanced clan tech, i'd love for you to explain again(or really for the first time), why anyone should pay double for a "sidegrade".