471 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

Harathan, on 21 April 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

So you and Roland both have amazing powers of insight and deduction beyond that of normal mortals? Is it a natural ability you were born with or a talent you only learned to harness when you were old enough to use the internet unsupervised?

No, I was just guessing. Am I right?

[Joseph Mallan]

Harathan, on 21 April 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

But you're a better troll. Congratulations. Your posts have taken on a rather unsavoury 'dickish' air recently.

I wouldn't call Roland a Troll. He has his views and opinions and he is bound by them. He may barb his replies sometimes but I for one have quite thick skin and accept his disagreement with the respect he has earned being here as long as he has. His manner is what it is may be due to frustration over things he sees in game or in my Iron-pated Hradani stubbornness. I don't know.

[Hawks]

I love the idea that people are deemed to be right or wrong based not upon the logical coherency or validity of their arguments, but by how good they allegedly are at a video game. I think that idea should be carried into the real world.

Economist 1: "I propose we raise interest rates"
Economist 2: "I propose we lower interest rates"
Economist 1: "Let's settle this the old fashioned way...best of three, StreetFighter 2, no-one's allowed to take Chun-Li..."
Economist 2: "Game on!"

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

As for rare and contrived? I can think of literally hundreds of matches won or lost simply because someone was or wasn't willing to possibly eat one for the team and face the superior force on the cap to buy time. I can only assume you are one of the players who did not do it then, and simply accepted it as a lost match for you to feel it was contrived. Or do you only drop in uber-leet 12 mans who have a no cap code?

I can confess I have been both, the guy who HAS gone to the base to delay knowing the gang is a few seconds behind, and the guy who sees 3+ assaults on the base and figures... Yeah... I think I'll pass! The pass is the rare occasion though.

Hawks, on 21 April 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

I love the idea that people are deemed to be right or wrong based not upon the logical coherency or validity of their arguments, but by how good they allegedly are at a video game. I think that idea should be carried into the real world.

Economist 1: "I propose we raise interest rates"
Economist 2: "I propose we lower interest rates"
Economist 1: "Let's settle this the old fashioned way...best of three, StreetFighter 2, no-one's allowed to take Chun-Li..."
Economist 2: "Game on!"

Well to be fare Hawk we are debating Video games so gamer logic should be the rule, but now do you judge by Paladin or Merc rules?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 April 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Harathan]

Roughneck45, on 21 April 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

No, I was just guessing. Am I right?

I'm afraid not mate. Exactly the opposite, usually.

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

I wouldn't call Roland a Troll. He has his views and opinions and he is bound by them. He may barb his replies sometimes but I for one have quite thick skin and accept his disagreement with the respect he has earned being here as long as he has. His manner is what it is may be due to frustration over things he sees in game or in my Iron-pated Hradani stubbornness. I don't know.

Fair enough. Everyone has bad days.

Edited by Harathan, 21 April 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

3rdworld, on 21 April 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Not meaning to sound that way, tone doesn't get transferred well in text, or maybe I am just an ass? Probably the second option.

But na, SwK prefers conquest in 12s.

probably a combination of A and B, the same reason most strongly opinionated people (myself included) come off as such, and one reason I still answer your posts at times, instead of just ignoring them. Like Roland, there are times I feel you are spot on. Other times, like this one, I feel you and Roland are both living in a B&W world, with blinders to other possibilities, because it apparently doesn't intrude into your controlled conditions as often.

Thing is, not everyone always plays by such stilted rules as 12 man unfortunately encourages, and what works in 12 does not always work in PUG or vice versa, as the coordination needed is lacking. The Samurai were ferocious warriors.... as long as everyone played by their inbred and dated set of rules. Against outside forces who didn't play by those rules, they didn't fare as well (I believe it required a "divine wind" to keep the Mongols from schooling them). So it becomes very hard to speak in broad declaratives.

[RussianWolf]

Had a fun one last night. Running my nearly stock Dragon 1N on Canyon Assault. We went down 4-8 and myself and 1 other fell back to base. I was able to pock shot the enemy from behind the base for a while, Great fun when three of them rushed me and I was able to pick them off one by one as they got close. Ran out of time and lost the match though.

KDR says I did great. But a loss is a loss.

If I had to point to a stat that's somewhat meaningful it be avg XP per match by mech. Give you a good cross section based on w/l, k/a, etc.

But I was in a nearly stock Dragon... so moral victory, right?

Edited by RussianWolf, 21 April 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Well to be fare Hawk we are debating Video games so gamer logic should be the rule, but now do you judge by Paladin or Merc rules?

Only one way to solve it

[Adiuvo]

Harathan, on 21 April 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Capturing the conquest points on a Conquest map makes you a bad player? Please go back to playing Counter Strike, this is not the game for you.



Which is what the rest of your team is doing while you cap. Please go back to playing Counter Strike, this is not the game for you.



QFT since I've seen this happen enough times. The enemy team was full or Rolands and Aduivos who's only concern was how many mechs they were killing. Kills were 11-0 in their favour. Points were 750-300 against.

Since you want to bring up my play quality...

I currently have a 6.3 W/L and a 8.5 KDR. Used to be 9.5, but I had a bad night a few days ago. I only play light mechs.

What are your stats? Oh wait, they don't matter. Somehow. Considering that, I'm also a starter light for the only undefeated team in Run Hot or Die. What team are you part of Harathan?

This will probably be lost on you but for anyone else reading -

If you're playing a light, the reason you don't only cap on conquest is because doing that essentially leaves your team in an 11v12 situation at best. It's typically worse. The way most conquest maps play out is for lights to rush into a side point, typically epsilon or kappa, while the bigs set up in standard starting locations. Middle for Terra Therma, citadel for River City, I6/J7 for Alpine, etc.. By the time you finish capping a side point your bigs should be in position, at which point the fight for theta starts. Everybody needs to be present for that fight. Typically once theta is capped it isn't uncapped. On maps like River City, Forest Colony, Alpine, Terra Therma, and others, theta is in an open position that can easily be seen for multiple sides of the map, leaving it always open to fire. Despite what people like to say light mechs, assuming they're not running some stupid build, are extremely combat capable and have the ability to make a difference in any fight whether by poking, distraction, or good arti/air placement. Going off to cap garbage points like gamma on Alpine takes you away from the fight during its most important moments.

After the theta fight you will either have to continue to poke or, if it went especially poorly, then go cap enemy bases. You also need to keep an eye out for situations where a lone mech is capping one of your own bases. A 1v1 situation is the best thing for a light mech and you can literally duel anyone but a streak mech and come out on top if you're good enough. If you're not, well least it's practice.

Edited by Adiuvo, 21 April 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dozier, on 21 April 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Only one way to solve it

On 3...

[Bishop Steiner]

yup, definitely need separate Stat categories for Premade and Solo players too. Bet it would be pretty eye opening.

Some of these nice set piece tactics work great...in 12 man where everyone is playing by the same set of rules, essentially. Amazing how fast they fall apart in PUG warfare. Worlds a little different when you got people watching your back and voice comms, to help compensate for overspecialized machines.

In fact I would prefer 12 mans because of those things, if the balance wasn't so broken as to promote playing the most inbred and boring of tactics, primarily, to succeed.

[Adiuvo]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

yup, definitely need separate Stat categories for Premade and Solo players too. Bet it would be pretty eye opening.

Some of these nice set piece tactics work great...in 12 man where everyone is playing by the same set of rules, essentially. Amazing how fast they fall apart in PUG warfare. Worlds a little different when you got people watching your back and voice comms, to help compensate for overspecialized machines.

In fact I would prefer 12 mans because of those things, if the balance wasn't so broken as to promote playing the most inbred and boring of tactics, primarily, to succeed.

What rules are you under the impression that 12mans play with?

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

What rules are you under the impression that 12mans play with?

Meta. And Meta while the most effective also dictates the tactic set. Keep stroking your epeen if it makes you feel better, but 12 man and PUG are still two distinctly different skill sets. You and Roland aren't exactly the only people to ever play 12 man. Your team is dang good, better than the ones I have dropped on. Doesn't mean I don't see the tactics involved. Just means HARDCorp is a bunch of casuals, lol, and that I don't have enough time to devote to House Steiner drops.

[Adiuvo]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Meta. And Meta while the most effective also dictates the tactic set. Keep stroking your epeen if it makes you feel better, but 12 man and PUG are still two distinctly different skill sets. You and Roland aren't exactly the only people to ever play 12 man. Your team is dang good, better than the ones I have dropped on. Doesn't mean I don't see the tactics involved. Just means HARDCorp is a bunch of casuals, lol, and that I don't have enough time to devote to House Steiner drops.

Meta is meta because the tactics associated with it are the most effective in the game. The same applies in pug games, only difference is that you have to be hyper-aggressive to win matches. There isn't anything especially unique about pug games that allow tactical genius to shine through, especially due to the lack of voice comms and overall absence of coordination.

I'm also not affiliated with House Steiner. I just like the icon. My actual team (House of Lords) is just a teamspeak we all hang out at.

Edited by Adiuvo, 21 April 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Screech]

Would love to have more refinement added to the stats page to allow for group and solo stats. Add that to the individual mech stats and you can have a pretty accurate ability in a given mech. But once you can define the type of mech and how you play(grouping) I think KDR is perfectly valid in determining your skill level.

[Harathan]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Since you want to bring up my play quality...

I currently have a 6.3 W/L and a 8.5 KDR. Used to be 9.5, but I had a bad night a few days ago. I only play light mechs.

What are your stats? Oh wait, they don't matter. Somehow. Considering that, I'm also a starter light for the only undefeated team in Run Hot or Die. What team are you part of Harathan?

This will probably be lost on you but for anyone else reading -

If you're playing a light, the reason you don't only cap on conquest is because doing that essentially leaves your team in an 11v12 situation at best. It's typically worse. The way most conquest maps play out is for lights to rush into a side point, typically epsilon or kappa, while the bigs set up in standard starting locations. Middle for Terra Therma, citadel for River City, I6/J7 for Alpine, etc.. By the time you finish capping a side point your bigs should be in position, at which point the fight for theta starts. Everybody needs to be present for that fight. Typically once theta is capped it isn't uncapped. On maps like River City, Forest Colony, Alpine, Terra Therma, and others, theta is in an open position that can easily be seen for multiple sides of the map, leaving it always open to fire. Despite what people like to say light mechs, assuming they're not running some stupid build, are extremely combat capable and have the ability to make a difference in any fight whether by poking, distraction, or good arti/air placement. Going off to cap garbage points like gamma on Alpine takes you away from the fight during its most important moments.

After the theta fight you will either have to continue to poke or, if it went especially poorly, then go cap enemy bases. You also need to keep an eye out for situations where a lone mech is capping one of your own bases. A 1v1 situation is the best thing for a light mech and you can literally duel anyone but a streak mech and come out on top if you're good enough. If you're not, well least it's practice.

I didn't mention your play quality, I simply suggested that since stroking your epeen to your own K/D is your thing, MWO may not be the optimal jazz material for it.

I'm lost as to how you think dedicated organised 12 man teams running meta builds vs the PUG games that the majority of players participate in are a valid comparison.

By the way, every team running the exact same tactic, map by map, every single game they play? That's not tactics it's just rinse-and-repeat cookie-cutter BS, and your attempt at condescension does not make your point more valid.

Edited by Harathan, 21 April 2014 - 11:08 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Harathan, on 21 April 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

I didn't mention your play quality, I simply suggested that since stroking your epeen to your own K/D is your thing, MWO is not the optimal jazz material for it.

I'm lost as to how you think dedicated organised 12 man teams running meta builds vs the PUG games that the majority of players participate in are a valid comparison.

I pug more often than I 12man to be honest. What I wrote there was for pug play. In 12mans, assuming you're confident in your light lance you pull off all sort of fancy shit at the start of the game and set the pace for the rest of it off of that. Going eps/kappa first is a move made out of safety. It's not the optimal thing to do.

[RussianWolf]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

I'm also not affiliated with House Steiner. I just like the icon. My actual team (House of Lords) is just a teamspeak we all hang out at.

I played against some of your guys the other night in PUG. they announced "LORD xxxxxx" and three people on my team disco immediately. not very sporting and I doubt we were much of a challenge given that. But yeah, all I saw were meta builds..... boring.

[Adiuvo]

Harathan, on 21 April 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

By the way, every team running the exact same tactic, map by map, every single game they play? That's not tactics and your attempt at condescension does not make your point more valid.

Tactics shine through movement in 12mans, not mech choice. It's movement that wins the games between top teams.

[Joseph Mallan]

RussianWolf, on 21 April 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

I played against some of your guys the other night in PUG. they announced "LORD xxxxxx" and three people on my team disco immediately. not very sporting and I doubt we were much of a challenge given that. But yeah, all I saw were meta builds..... boring.

Reputation is a very effective weapon Wolf. We should all aspire to have a reputation like that.