471 replies to this topic

[RussianWolf]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Actually, funny, we had a couple matches where they announced Lords the other night, was running in a 3 man. One we got roflstomped the other we won. I also ran into a Lords lance while PUGing in my Alt Account, and it was not pretty, lol. I hate it when people panic over a Premade. That just means that lance is gonna be dangerous, but it is still only 1/3 the OpFor. Even Lords, HBAs, etc, none of them are invincible. And it just means that winning is much sweeter than against scrub comp. Only thing more boring than a Poptart fest is a 12/0 roll, regardless of the side of it you are on.


pretty sure acknowledging someones opinions of stats, one way or the other, ain't gonna impact my actual game play, one bit. Pretty sure regular play and practice trumps forum opinions.

Just sayin!


Well, I figure that is because it means you are stuck with me. I know I am above average, I have no delusion of being Koreanese or one of those cats.

oh yeah, I totally agree. I had a match this past week where we had three not connect in at the beginning. Amazingly we actually all grouped up and fought through it to win the match and only lost 6 actual mechs in the process. Is it possible to overcome the odds, sure. Likelyhood depends on a lot of variables though. Could we have overcome the Lords with 3 intentional Discos? maybe, but it didn't happen that round.

Stuck with you, stuck with me? not sure who drew the short stick on that one. lol

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

I hate it when people panic over a Premade.

People actually do that? That's...really dumb.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghost Badger, on 21 April 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

People actually do that? That's...really dumb.

I've seen discos over it, just like over getting a map poor lil umms didn't like so much (if you don't wanna be boned on Alpine, stop driving a BoomJager chief!)

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

I've seen discos over it, just like over getting a map poor lil umms didn't like so much (if you don't wanna be boned on Alpine, stop driving a BoomJager chief!)

But...but...one of my best joke/fun matches WAS a Boomjager on Alpine. Hug hills like it's your job and watch seismic like a hawk!

Intentional discos are stupid...if you don't wanna play, don't hit the button.

[Harathan]

Ghost Badger, on 21 April 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

People actually do that? That's...really dumb.

I've seen people panic over a pre-made on their own team.

[YueFei]

Meh, I do not think KDR means much when the objective is to win games. The Win-Loss ratio is a more important stat.

I mean, look at my Awesome-9M statline. It has a KDR of 1.26, and based on that you might think I am slightly above average in that mech. But, it has a win-loss ratio of 0.64. THAT is the only statistic that matters, which means I am actually TERRIBLE in that mech. Whatever the hell it is I am doing, I am not helping my team win games in that thing. =P

[White Bear 84]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Also, as stated, KDr in a PUG match and KDr in premades are affected by vastly different influences, as rolling with voice comms ALWAYS improves one person's success rate.

An observation from my KDR - generally speaking it runs in line with the number of wins for all mechs. In my Firebrand my W/L is 2 with a KDR of 4, while by Battlemaster W/L is 1 with a KDR of 2. What I can attribute is that a lot of the variance occurs between PUG and premade matches. I drop in both and the success rate changes between the two.

PUGS - Generally its is a hit and miss situation, in my opinion a 50/50 W/L is pretty reasonable; you can play good, get kills and still lose or play really well and get stomped.

PREMADES - Better chances of winning through improved communication, but this may not always translate to more kills; it does tend to translate to much more damage.

A third comment is the mech type - the AC5 firebrand is a crit' machine. So I would expect more kills from it (in competition between fire from team-mates) than I would on other mechs. Same applied to my ember - this is a mech that can rack up 5 kills a game EASY; because it has a high RoF and the chance to crit which takes the kill.

Edited by White Bear 84, 21 April 2014 - 07:33 PM.

[Errinovar]

Roland, on 21 April 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

That's why you are misunderstanding the point, bishop. The point isn't that kd is important on its own, or that a statistic somehow makes you a better person, or even a better player. But if someone doesn't see how kd is in fact measuring something important, and that performance in this game ultimately boils down to killing enemy mechs while preserving friendly ones, then that person is missing a really fundamental aspect of the game. And you can see a lot of misunderstanding in this thread, where people are making ridiculous claims such as thinking that getting kills is pure luck, or is all based on somehow "kill stealing". That isn't true bishop. That is fantasy. Getting kills isn't luck, which is why the same folks tend to to the scoreboard over and over again. Folks who are running a sub 1 kd ratio, and then tell themselves that they are playing fine and that their "role" demands it are fooling themselves. They have a low kd because they are doing things wrong. Unless they recognize this, they won't improve. Improvement doesn't just come from repetition. Improvement comes from analyzing our mistakes and learning how not to repeat them. This is the key element that separates the good players from the bad. This ability to objectively analyze their own play, recognize mistakes, and correct them. Some good players may be real cocky, but they also tend to be much more critical of themselves than bad players. A good player will analyze a loss (or even a win) and identify every mistake, and try to trace its cause. A bad player will attribute the outcome to luck, or other external causes out of their control. And you see that mentality here. People saying that high kd ratios come from kill stealing, or hiding, or luck. But that is not the case. Yet, as long as people use such excuses instead of reflecting upon the mistakes they make which results in their poor kd ratio, then they will continue to make those mistakes.

I think Roland's arguments in past posts have been pessimistic, and somewhat inconsistent. By that I mean that his arguments against assist score being a viable stat to measure progress due to the ability of gaming it applies to every stat in this game. KDR can be gamed both in groups and in solo dropping (though it is harder as a solo drop). But these arguments assume that the player in question plays dishonestly (gaming for damage by targeting non-essential parts like arms, 1 leg, then torsos etc.. or gaming the kdr by collusion with your drop, or gaming the assist by scratching every enemy mech on the field with a laser) then none of the stats have any meaning and the whole argument is pointless.

That said, the points Roland made here are spot on and anyone that doesn't pay attention (particularly to the last 4 paragraphs) is doing themselves a big disservice. Self analysis of both good and bad games is necessary if you want to improve.

[Wolfways]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

If the objective of the game is to kill things, and over time, taking into account all of your matches and not just one off situations, you kill less than you are killed then yeah, you're bad.

True. So it's a good job that the objective of MWO isn't just to kill things isn't it.
The objective of the game is for the team to kill things. Helping your team do that, even if not killing things yourself, is still helping your team.

Too many people see MWO as "Me, and my meatshields, against the world!".

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Ignotus is the one in lords.

He left the Jags???

[Joseph Mallan]

YueFei, on 21 April 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Meh, I do not think KDR means much when the objective is to win games. The Win-Loss ratio is a more important stat.

I mean, look at my Awesome-9M statline. It has a KDR of 1.26, and based on that you might think I am slightly above average in that mech. But, it has a win-loss ratio of 0.64. THAT is the only statistic that matters, which means I am actually TERRIBLE in that mech. Whatever the hell it is I am doing, I am not helping my team win games in that thing. =P

IF you are a team player then you are right Yue. But if you are not... then personal stats are more your thing. When I die a useless death >100 damage no kills no assists... I feel bad. If I die during the game with 3-4 Kills 4-5 assists and/or 300+ damage... I did my team proud.

[FatYak]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

If the objective of the game is to kill things, and over time, taking into account all of your matches and not just one off situations, you kill less than you are killed then yeah, you're bad.

The arrogance in this thread is amazing

With all the things working against players in terms of even having damage register a hit on an enemy mech let alone killing it, it still boggles my mind that KDR is seen to be the only gauge of a good v bad pilot

Now, i would LOVE to do competitve play, but i cant get better at MWO because the fact I'm on the wrong side of the planet from the server with crappy local telecommunications infrastructure and don't have a spare 3 grand to build a proper gaming machine. I have aping from 270-340 which i cant change, hit registration goes from ok to non existant for me MID MATCH. i cant change any of this.

So yeah, im a bad pilot, suck it up, i may end up on your team

Edited by FatYak, 22 April 2014 - 04:11 AM.

[Hawks]

Incidentally I'm currently running about a 1.5 KDR, but that's exclusively pugging and 76% of my matches since the wipe have been in mechs that are generally regarded as 'useless' (Locusts and Kintaros ) yet I've won fewer than half of my matches. So I'm going to say I agree with Roland simply because his argument is more flattering to me, personally.

[FatYak]

Hawks, on 22 April 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Incidentally I'm currently running about a 1.5 KDR, but that's exclusively pugging and 76% of my matches since the wipe have been in mechs that are generally regarded as 'useless' (Locusts and Kintaros ) yet I've won fewer than half of my matches. So I'm going to say I agree with Roland simply because his argument is more flattering to me, personally.

That's kinda the problem.. the "your a crap pilot" argument over a low KDR is about stroking hot shots own egos while using it as a put down against others.

[Joseph Mallan]

FatYak, on 22 April 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

That's kinda the problem.. the "your a crap pilot" argument over a low KDR is about stroking hot shots own egos while using it as a put down against others.

I look at it this way.

A high KR make you a good killer

A high # of assists could be a good team player or a player gaming the system. The tell is the damage he put out... Sometimes.

Saturday was one of those days that my 48KpH left me behind the pack and one quick turn and Boom 4-7 enemy right there! Now do I waddle away? Or

first produced my pistol and then produced my rapier

stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 April 2014 - 05:48 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

I look at it this way.

A high KR make you a good killer

A high # of assists could be a good team player or a player gaming the system. The tell is the damage he put out... Sometimes.

Saturday was one of those days that my 48KpH left me behind the pack and one quick turn and Boom 4-7 enemy right there! Now do I waddle away? Or

first produced my pistol and then produced my rapier

stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya!

Musha ring dum-a do dum-a da? Lol

Edited by Ghost Badger, 22 April 2014 - 05:56 AM.

[Eglar]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

He left the Jags???

House of Lords is no unit.

FatYak, on 22 April 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

That's kinda the problem.. the "your a crap pilot" argument over a low KDR is about stroking hot shots own egos while using it as a put down against others.

Part of any Online Multiplayer game, can't see what's wrong with that.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Even Lords, HBAs, etc, none of them are invincible. And it just means that winning is much sweeter than against scrub comp.

I agree. And I'm not saying that playing with your friends, fun-builds is wrong but it makes you a worse player compared to people who play to win with all the meta, consumables, pre-mades, verbal trolling. It's like comparing a casual weekend neighborhood basketball-team with a nba team.

Edit: P.s. Crunck Prime is not in HoL, just a fanboy.

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

I currently have a 8.5 KDR. <snip>

When I need to play to win, and get to chose my 4-man lance I'd pick Adiuvo all day just based on these stats. If you find that you can support the team and therefore are better than him in yielding a victories with your tag-spider and a k/d of barely 1, you are either delusional or a hypocrite.

that being said there are many easily approachable players such as JagerXII you can ask whatever you want, they play non-meta mechs and still win on a regular base (catlance and stuff...),
Or how your typical Lords 4-man meta-premade wins with Heimdelight with a usual 4 man meta not staying in the backyard and sniping but rather being the first and foremost to seek confrontation.

On both streams you'll notice that the W/L and K/D are both above 5.

Edited by Eglar, 22 April 2014 - 07:28 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Eglar, on 22 April 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

House of Lords is no unit.

Any sometimes answers require explanations. You are inferring he has not left the Jags, yet not actually confirm either way.

[Faith McCarron]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

Any sometimes answers require explanations. You are inferring he has not left the Jags, yet not actually confirm either way.

The best, concise explanation of HoL that I've heard is that "LORDS is not a unit, it's a way of life". Now, while personally I find their general carrying on to be anathema, they're straightforward in what they do/are. Hint: objectively watch a Lords 4-man in the pub queue and you'll find that they may be annoying, and they are definitely trolls, but they're anything but pop-sniping metas sitting in the back racking up kills from safety. In fact, it can be near impossible to keep up with them in most matches.

[Almond Brown]

Roland, on 21 April 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

You don't do any of those things you described by being dead.

Just wow. Really. Well said Roland and you win the internets this day. wow...