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Clan Balance Discussion: A Review Of Pugs After 5 Days

Balance BattleMechs Weapons

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#1 heimdelight

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM

Hello everyone :D I don't post here often, so I'll just give some info that gives me a bit of credibility here.

I'm a member/starter/one of many leaders for the House of Lords, winners of the PGI First Engagement Tournament and Run Hot or Die Season 3. I've come in first place for Mercenary Corporation in the two Faction Challenge Tournaments, and have 101 'Mechs with 2billion c-bills total accumulated. I've been playing MWO for about a year and a half now with experience in previous competitive FPS games, and a lot of experience competitively with MechWarrior: Online.

And now, onto the important part :D

Clan Mech and Weapon Balance


It's almost been a week since Clans have been released. While we all feel things are revitalized and refreshed, the weapons and how they've been balanced previous to Clans should not be forgotten. The energy, ballistic, and missile weapons are still the three main groups, and new ones with new mechanics have simply been added. This may slightly change the way balancing will be approached, but there are still general rules of thumb balancing much abide by in order to reach some form of equality between all 'Mechs and playstyles.

For example, we have learned, that in an FPS game, pinpoint weapons are inherently overpowering. The Gauss, AC5s, and PPCs are the best weapons in the game due to that. With Clans, we saw the implementation of less pinpoint-oriented ACs. This example is the first of many issues in current imbalances with the meta-game post-clan launch.

The existence of Inner Sphere AutoCannons as it stands, being pinpoint, are inherently better than the Clan AutoCannons. Gauss, both as an IS and Clan weapon, performs better than other Clan ballistics and equal to Inner Sphere ballistics.

This brings me to my next point. With the introduction of Clans, overall Damage-per-second (DPS) has increased. Sustained DPS has also increased. This means Time-to-Kill (TTK) has decreased. For those who remember the introduction of the Stalker before SRMs had their splash damage removed and received a nerf, it was the first 'Mech with the ability to truly high-damage alpha. While the 'Mech worked well in it's time, in the current environment with Clans, it would not.

The introduction of Clans is similar to the Stalker, only it is much proportionately larger. Alphas have even more damage, and there is a greater ability to have greater sustained DPS. This increase causes issues mostly in the lower weights of the game, removing their viability due to having no survivability. Their armor means nothing if it can't take the damage.

Our first lesson: We saw this with the Locust in the Inner Sphere. That viability has now reached other light 'Mechs. Armor given to 25, 30, and even 35 tonners has now become almost meaningless. Lights are almost cornered exclusively into a end of game clean-up role. They can no longer use their speed to take small amounts of damage and dodge many shots, and risk being the squirrel to the dog that is the enemy team. They have lost that role as 'Mechs.

Now to bring this all full-circle and back to the pinpoint weapon balance, Time to Kill needs to be increased in order for Lights, and even mediums, to be more viable again. It's why I don't believe bringing everything up to the viability of current pinpoint is the solution, and the solution is rather to nerf the current pinpoint weapons to decrease DPS, increase TTK, and make 'Mechs with less armor more viable.

Not only is there more damage being done, but the range of engagements has increased. This means, even with the return of SRM hit registration, closing in the gap for brawlers is even more difficult than before. Since many lights, mediums, and heavys can make great use out of the power missile weapon, SRMs, they will die before they get to the fight due to the large DPS being put out by today's current meta-'Mechs.

Even with the addition of heat generated by jumpjet use and fall damage, I still believe that weapon balance is a much different monster. JJs are a monster on it's own, weapons still need adjustments.

Also, since I believe this 'Mech deserves it's own section, the Timberwolf is an atrocity on balance in this game and needs to be nerfed. It is 75tons, goes 89kph, and is better than all of Clan Assaults, Heavys, Mediums, and Lights at literally everything. It can loadout nearly anything, and can out maneuver anything. This is a massive issue.

That being said,

Possible Solutions:

2xClan ERPPCs is ridiculously overpowered. Following the current implemented Ghost Heat rule, firing two should cause Ghost Heat. This will require two separate shots, and if you want pinpoint, it's at the penalty of quite a bit of heat.

With the introduction of longer range engagements, Clan laser duration needs to be increased. Clan pulse laser duration needs to be decreased.

This may be the one change that is opposite to my philosophy, but I feel the current IS AC5s are in a good place. They have decent range, decent damage, use good weight and slots, etc. I feel the IS AC10s/AC2s need a buff. Clan ACs, however, are burst fire. They are definitely lacking in comparison to IS ACs. Clan ACs need the duration of shells being fired decreased. The spread is too much and cannot compete with any pinpoint ballistics.

For the Timberwolf: The acceleration, twist rate, jumpjet speed, the whole nine yards needs to hit it. It has above average hitboxes which make it difficult to hit when moving quickly or torso twisting fast.

Of course, values need to be adjusted as well, but that's not really an area I like to speculate with. I think these are simply the directions, and the values are the fine-tuning. If anyone wants to throw some number adjustments out there for the sake of discussion, feel free :D

Now that I've typed what I feel like I know best about this game, what do you think about it? What should happen to missiles? Which 'Mech quirks and loadouts are overpowered to you? How do you think things are currently stacking up?

Thanks for reading :huh:
Thanks for reading :)

Edited by heimdelight, 22 June 2014 - 04:56 PM.


#2 Vassago Rain

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:32 AM

10/10 OP.

#3 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM

Lights, and not just clan lights, are basically pointless now. You are entirely dependent on your team to do anything. The ranges the game takes place thanks to ER weapons prevents any poking game and the fact that you can get a leg taken off with one shot from a Daishi is bullshit.

It is literally impossible to maneuver around a Timberwolf. Given that this is basically a better Dragon Slayer there's a tad bit of a problem.

Ghost heat at 1 for ERPPCs is sorely needed but maneuverability changes need to be put in for clans.

Edited by Adiuvo, 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM.


#4 Gyrok

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM

WOW...just WOW...I expected far more objectivity from someone in as high a competitive standing as you are heimdelight.

If so many of these things are OP, then why is it that you see more CERLL than you do CERPPC?

Additionally, I would like to point out, the IS ERPPC is just as OP as the CERPPC...which is to say, it is not at all OP. The IS standard PPC is retardedly broken in terms of cost versus reward, yet there is no nerf being called for on those...?

Additionally, why is it that Clans are built for DPS, which spreads, while IS are built for PP FLD, which does not? PP FLD > DOT. This is why the clans have higher DPS, they have absolutely 2 PP FLD weapons, and one of those spreads damage (CERPPC) and runs ******** hot.

Sure I can run 4 CERPPC and fire in volleys on the WH Prime, however, I would like to note, I removed all the LRMs and targeting computer and filled it full of 28 (that is correct 2-8 as in twenty eight) DHS, and it is still HOT. I can fire about 3 volleys of 2 before the seat of my mech is about to burn through my pants.

So, while I appreciate you speaking out on your perspective...the Clans are seriously not OP...the mechanics are different, which means the meta (gasp) will have to adjust to accomodate. I would think comp players tired of a stale meta would like that to happen, instead of sitting here talking about how AC/PPC should remain on top...

#5 Vassago Rain

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:47 AM

View PostGyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

WOW...just WOW...I expected far more objectivity from someone in as high a competitive standing as you are heimdelight.

If so many of these things are OP, then why is it that you see more CERLL than you do CERPPC?

Additionally, I would like to point out, the IS ERPPC is just as OP as the CERPPC...which is to say, it is not at all OP. The IS standard PPC is retardedly broken in terms of cost versus reward, yet there is no nerf being called for on those...?

Additionally, why is it that Clans are built for DPS, which spreads, while IS are built for PP FLD, which does not? PP FLD > DOT. This is why the clans have higher DPS, they have absolutely 2 PP FLD weapons, and one of those spreads damage (CERPPC) and runs ******** hot.

Sure I can run 4 CERPPC and fire in volleys on the WH Prime, however, I would like to note, I removed all the LRMs and targeting computer and filled it full of 28 (that is correct 2-8 as in twenty eight) DHS, and it is still HOT. I can fire about 3 volleys of 2 before the seat of my mech is about to burn through my pants.

So, while I appreciate you speaking out on your perspective...the Clans are seriously not OP...the mechanics are different, which means the meta (gasp) will have to adjust to accomodate. I would think comp players tired of a stale meta would like that to happen, instead of sitting here talking about how AC/PPC should remain on top...


You're talking about the ghetto. He's talking about his own 12 manz and pub drops against steel jags, where all he says is true.

#6 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:47 AM

View PostGyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

WOW...just WOW...I expected far more objectivity from someone in as high a competitive standing as you are heimdelight.

If so many of these things are OP, then why is it that you see more CERLL than you do CERPPC?

Additionally, I would like to point out, the IS ERPPC is just as OP as the CERPPC...which is to say, it is not at all OP. The IS standard PPC is retardedly broken in terms of cost versus reward, yet there is no nerf being called for on those...?

Additionally, why is it that Clans are built for DPS, which spreads, while IS are built for PP FLD, which does not? PP FLD > DOT. This is why the clans have higher DPS, they have absolutely 2 PP FLD weapons, and one of those spreads damage (CERPPC) and runs ******** hot.

Sure I can run 4 CERPPC and fire in volleys on the WH Prime, however, I would like to note, I removed all the LRMs and targeting computer and filled it full of 28 (that is correct 2-8 as in twenty eight) DHS, and it is still HOT. I can fire about 3 volleys of 2 before the seat of my mech is about to burn through my pants.

So, while I appreciate you speaking out on your perspective...the Clans are seriously not OP...the mechanics are different, which means the meta (gasp) will have to adjust to accomodate. I would think comp players tired of a stale meta would like that to happen, instead of sitting here talking about how AC/PPC should remain on top...

In my games, and Heim's, we don't see more CERLL usage than CERPPC. What the general populace brings doesn't really matter anyways. Meta is trickle down and given that clans just released stuff is still being experimented with by a lot of players. Comp players, however, have gravitated towards ERPPC/Gauss.

Clans are built for DPS, except for the ERPPC and the gauss. That is why these two weapons are being used. Heat is negated due to the amount of double heatsinks a clan mech can run. The Timberwolf is somewhat hotter than a Cataphract of the same build but it moving so fast is a massive, massive boon.

4 ERPPC is a build nobody would use a competitive setting. What will be used are the 2xERPPC 1xGauss Mad Cats, which are broken beyond belief. You basically have a Dragon Slayer that's much faster, tankier, and spreads damage better.

#7 Gyrok

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:55 AM

View PostVassago Rain, on 22 June 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:


You're talking about the ghetto. He's talking about his own 12 manz and pub drops against steel jags, where all he says is true.


Right, like I do not drop against those guys frequently too...and the guys from the 228th and guys from SwK and the others...

L2P.

View PostAdiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

In my games, and Heim's, we don't see more CERLL usage than CERPPC. What the general populace brings doesn't really matter anyways. Meta is trickle down and given that clans just released stuff is still being experimented with by a lot of players. Comp players, however, have gravitated towards ERPPC/Gauss.

Clans are built for DPS, except for the ERPPC and the gauss. That is why these two weapons are being used. Heat is negated due to the amount of double heatsinks a clan mech can run. The Timberwolf is somewhat hotter than a Cataphract of the same build but it moving so fast is a massive, massive boon.

4 ERPPC is a build nobody would use a competitive setting. What will be used are the 2xERPPC 1xGauss Mad Cats, which are broken beyond belief. You basically have a Dragon Slayer that's much faster, tankier, and spreads damage better.


Again, I drop against you guys and SJR and SwK and 228th quite a bit...as well as the Smoke Jags, and many other groups. I see PPCs a fair bit, and just as many CERLL. In fact in 12 mans against CSJ and 007 (aka Golden Keshik now...) there were as many CERLLs and other weapons as CERPPCs. Last night in drops against guys from your group (PUG drops), SJR, and SwK, we saw lots of different things...granted some ran more CERPPCs than others, but that does not discount the fact that I AM seeing more variety in that tier, and I believe that to be a good thing...cling to the old meta all you want, it is FINALLY dying...maybe we can all go somewhere and brawl finally...

Edited by Gyrok, 22 June 2014 - 11:57 AM.


#8 Abivard

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:57 AM

Wow, such tunnel vision, I am saddened.

Just someone making a justification for the IS FLD meta to remain OP while subtly asking for clan nerfs, meanwhile ignoring half of the weapon systems in the game.

Epic Fail!

#9 Mystere

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:57 AM

This is really so tiring. As such, I will continue to just quote myself from another thread:

View PostMystere, on 22 June 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

It's only been a few days and we already have:
  • Nerf Clan Gauss
  • Nerf Clan ERPPC
  • Nerf Clan ERML
  • Nerf Clan ERSL
  • Nerf Clan LRM
  • Nerf Clan XL Engines
  • Nerf Timber Wolf
  • Nerf Dire Wolf
  • Clans are Pay To Win
  • Clan 3xAMS + ECM is OP
  • Clan DPS is OP
  • Clans with JJs are OP
Did I miss anything?


Maybe PGI should just scrap the Clans and refund with interest everyone who paid. Or better yet, let's just shut everything down.

Posted Image


#10 heimdelight

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM

View PostGyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

WOW...just WOW...I expected far more objectivity from someone in as high a competitive standing as you are heimdelight.

If so many of these things are OP, then why is it that you see more CERLL than you do CERPPC?

Additionally, I would like to point out, the IS ERPPC is just as OP as the CERPPC...which is to say, it is not at all OP. The IS standard PPC is retardedly broken in terms of cost versus reward, yet there is no nerf being called for on those...?

Additionally, why is it that Clans are built for DPS, which spreads, while IS are built for PP FLD, which does not? PP FLD > DOT. This is why the clans have higher DPS, they have absolutely 2 PP FLD weapons, and one of those spreads damage (CERPPC) and runs ******** hot.

Sure I can run 4 CERPPC and fire in volleys on the WH Prime, however, I would like to note, I removed all the LRMs and targeting computer and filled it full of 28 (that is correct 2-8 as in twenty eight) DHS, and it is still HOT. I can fire about 3 volleys of 2 before the seat of my mech is about to burn through my pants.

So, while I appreciate you speaking out on your perspective...the Clans are seriously not OP...the mechanics are different, which means the meta (gasp) will have to adjust to accomodate. I would think comp players tired of a stale meta would like that to happen, instead of sitting here talking about how AC/PPC should remain on top...


I don't know how else to solve this issue of being able to prove my analysis to you other than organizing a literally unbeatable team of 12 timberwolves, or beating you 1v1 with a timberwolf over and over and over again until you believe it with the loadout and issues I described.

What would convince you that what I was saying is the reality? High-skill play is honestly what matters most, adjusting values for low-skill environments is not the way to balance a video-game. It never has been, it isn't the case for DoTA/LoL/Starcraft obviously.

#11 RAM

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM

Conclusive proof that ability in game does not correlate with analytical ability.


RAM
ELH

#12 Pygar

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM

Timberwolf does need to be brought down to earth....everything else, too soon.

#13 xMintaka

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM

View PostVassago Rain, on 22 June 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:


You're talking about the ghetto. He's talking about his own 12 manz and pub drops against steel jags, where all he says is true.


IS pinpoint weapons are still more powerful than Clans. Your typical AC5/PPC Victor utterly outclasses the Guass/ERPPC Timberwolf because of heat.

Firing two ERPPC's without devoting the entire mech to them (ie, loading up on heatsinks and nothing else) is just too hot.

CERPPC's are worse than regular PPC's in almost every situation. The extra 5 damage is effectively pointless as it splashes to other locations.

I agree with Heimdelight's proposed nerfs for the Timberwolf, since it does feel slightly too agile for a 75 ton mech. But it shouldn't be overnerfed as the Victor was.

We still have JJ heat and fall damage incoming, which should help. Once they hit I feel it would be a good time to start looking at slightly toning down the Twolf's agility.

#14 KGB GRU

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:01 PM

Wow would you look at the time its already been 10 seconds since our last clan balance post. Its been 5 days christ.

#15 Armored Yokai

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:02 PM

Using Cheap meta builds to win that tournament i rather think that win was not deserved it should have been stock only imho. (Anyone getting 30-40 damage to 1 location is more likely to die and teams winning chance increases)
But anyways good post

Edited by Armored Yokai, 22 June 2014 - 12:34 PM.


#16 wanderer

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:04 PM

All Clan designs have done is hammered in that the meta discovered the ideal weapons for MWO, and this hasn't changed regardless of whether you slap them on a Timber Wolf or a Dragon Slayer, a Summoner or a Cataphract-3D.

You take the weapons that deal FLD, pinpoint damage. You put them on a jump-capable chassis, the best available. You win. That's why the Timber Wolf-S is the king of Clanner chassis right now. It jumps, slap on 2xER PPC + Gauss, bounce-and-blast to victory with a 'Mech that can take more hits than anything with an IS XL, even with the lower ROF thanks to higher-heat ER PPCs (a good pilot can do just peachy with a single Gauss fed into the alpha, as any 12-man high-end comp. pilot likely can.)

CERLLs and CERMLs are good to great secondary weapons, naturally. I expect Clan lights to pick them up, and they poke well. But the old meta is the new meta, and the old meta still dictates what will rule. It'll continue to rule until the IS AC/PPC/Gauss model is changed, and jump sniping will continue to rule until firing in midair is no longer accurate, jets active or not.

View PostLunatech, on 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:


We still have JJ heat and fall damage incoming, which should help. Once they hit I feel it would be a good time to start looking at slightly toning down the Twolf's agility.


Thanks to the more energy (and higher heat) balance on Clan 'Mechs, that's going to work harder on the Timber Wolf than anyone else. And frankly, I expect them to pull it off in a manner that's just going to hurt lights more than actual jump sniping.

#17 JohnSoloman

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:07 PM

With out a hard point restriction system akin to MW4, this is going to be the name of the game.

Welcome to closed beta.

If we could restrict people from putting PPC into a Mlas or LL mount point you would never see this. Nor would we have had to deal with Gausscats. It would also breathe fresh life into lights and other mechs such as the Awesome.

Ghost heat wouldn't even need to be around any more.

#18 Pygar

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:09 PM

View PostLunatech, on 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:


IS pinpoint weapons are still more powerful than Clans. Your typical AC5/PPC Victor utterly outclasses the Guass/ERPPC Timberwolf because of heat.

I agree with Heimdelight's proposed nerfs for the Timberwolf, since it does feel slightly too agile for a 75 ton mech. But it shouldn't be overnerfed as the Victor was.



I'm not exactly disagreeing with you here- but I just wanted to point out a common contradiction I see in balance discussions here...because I frequently see people say these same two things in either the same post or within a few posts of each other.

1. The Victor is arguably the best mech in the game

and

2. The Victor was unfairly nerfed and nerfed sooooooooooooooooooooo haaaaaaard.

-----------

Pick one....only one of those two statements can be true. (I vote #1, since the Victor is one of the best if not arguably the best IS mech, despite being given a good spanking with the nerf bat already.)

Edited by Pygar, 22 June 2014 - 12:11 PM.


#19 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:10 PM

View PostGyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Again, I drop against you guys and SJR and SwK and 228th quite a bit...as well as the Smoke Jags, and many other groups. I see PPCs a fair bit, and just as many CERLL. In fact in 12 mans against CSJ and 007 (aka Golden Keshik now...) there were as many CERLLs and other weapons as CERPPCs. Last night in drops against guys from your group (PUG drops), SJR, and SwK, we saw lots of different things...granted some ran more CERPPCs than others, but that does not discount the fact that I AM seeing more variety in that tier, and I believe that to be a good thing...cling to the old meta all you want, it is FINALLY dying...maybe we can all go somewhere and brawl finally...

I don't care who you drop against dude... like really, I don't. I don't care what CSJ and GK are doing.

I care about what top people and top teams in the game are doing. Which is basically what Heim has posted. ERPPC/Gauss, much like PPC/Gauss or PPC/AC5 before it, is beating everything else. The problem is that the clan versions of these weapons, when taking into account overall clan mechanics, are much stronger than their IS versions. If anyone thought the standard 'meta' builds were OP before then they're in for a surprise once people begin using the clan meta builds.

View PostRAM, on 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Conclusive proof that ability in game does not correlate with analytical ability.


RAM
ELH

You're right, it doesn't.

Unfortunately Heim's analysis is spot on, and you seem to think so to considering you didn't raise any points against it.

View PostArmored Yokai, on 22 June 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Using Cheap meta builds to win that tournament i rather think that win was not deserved it should have been stock only.

all of my lols.

#20 Targetloc

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:11 PM

We really don't need more ghost heat mechanics. PGI already had to put medium and small lasers into the same ghost heat group. Now people are calling for EPPPCs to ghost heat at 2, and some are even calling for ballistics and PPC's to be linked on ghost heat.

The answer is to remove Heatsinks adding to your heat capacity. Dissipation is its own virtue.

The problem with HS adding to capacity has been evident since they first introduce DHS back in closed beta. Not only are you able to produce builds that can core a mech before reaching heat capacity, but additional heatsinks have disproportionate value because instead of just getting 1 additional shot, you get 2 or more because the heat from the first shot is bled off by the time you reach your third consecutive alpha.

We wouldn't have to keep adding ghost heat to everything if you had to wait to cool off after an alpha strike, and low-heat weapons had their recycle time adjusted to compensate for their higher DPS/heat.





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