110 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Yesterday, I was looking at the statistics for some of the clan weapons when I realized that the longer beam duration does not properly balance Clan ER Medium Lasers and Clan ER Small Lasers to their IS counterparts. Let me explain...

Medium Lasers

A Clan Medium Laser does 7 damage and has a 1.3 beam duration. This means that it takes 1.3 seconds for the full 7 damage to apply. An Inner Sphere medium laser does 5 damage, with a 1 second beam duration.

However, if you do the math this means that a clan medium laser is going to do 5.38 damage per second of beam duration, while an inner sphere medium laser does only 5 damage per second of beam duration.


Notice how the Clan laser stays ahead of the IS laser in damage throughout the entire beam duration?

Small Lasers

A clan er small laser does 5 damage with a beam duration of 1 second. an IS small laser does 3 damage with a beam duration of 0.75 seconds. This gives clans 5 damage per second of beam duration and the IS 4 damage per second of beam duration.


Same as above, but even more noticeable.

DPS

"But Jman" you snivel, "the lower beam duration gives Inner Sphere better DPS!"

Aha, not so fast young padawan. Clan ERML has 1.63 DPS vs IS 1.25. Clan ERSL has 1.54 DPS vs IS 1 DPS. However let's take this even further. let's assume that you only get the exact same amount of time on target as the IS player over an extended period of time. So a full beam duration on the IS versus a partial on Clans.

To the Mathmobile!

• With a partial 1 second beam duration the Clan ER ML will have a 1.252 DPS
  
• With a full 1 second beam duration the IS ML will have 1.25 DPS

Practically identical! So there is no DPS advantage for IS even if we assume clans can never get their full beam duration off and are just holding down the fire button at a target which keeps mysteriously vanishing and reappearing exactly every 4 seconds.



And Small Lasers?

• Clan ER SL with 0.75 second beam duration: 1.15 DPS
  
• IS SL with 0.75 second beam duration: 1 DPS

A small, but noticeable advantage for the clan er SL.




I believe I have convincingly refuted the commonly held belief that longer beam duration gives IS lasers an advantage in this field. The truth is that the increased damage the Clan Lasers have counteract the disadvantage of the longer beam duration, thus making it irrelevant when you compare them to their IS counterpart.

Disclaimer

For the sake of argument I am going to claim that the increased range advantage of clan ER ML lasers are canceled out by the increased heat requirements. IMO the range advantage is more valuable, but for simplicity I'll say it's a wash.

Clan ER SL has identical heat to IS SL which is troubling in it's own right, but I'll leave that to another thread.

Also, this thread applies to Medium Lasers and Small lasers only. I make no claims about the other ones.

You can find all these stats on smurfy's here

Edited by Jman5, 23 June 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[EvilCow]

Good point, I think they designed the lasers to be at least equivalent to the IS ones and much better with aiming skill.

[mogs01gt]

I thought this was obvious since they did 7 dmg?

[DONTOR]

Off topic, but awesome sig. I've been wanting to say that for some time now.

Secondly have you compared the large laser variants to eachother yet, Im not the best at math but that extra .5 seconds for only 2 damage seems like it may be slightly inferior to the IS ERLL minus range of course.(and tonnage/crits)

[Sug]

Edit: If you've just starting reading this thread skip to page 5 where I rewrite the OP's post for clarity. Thread title is unfortunate and misleading.

http://mwomercs.com/...it/page__st__80

*****************************************************************************************************************************


Just using beams is itself an disadvantage. You're comparing rotten apples to rotten oranges.


Is Damage Per Second even relevant when looking at a single second? My math made the Clan LLs look weak to me.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

IS Large Laser: 9 damage with a 1 sec duration, every .1 seconds it does .9 damage. (10 x .9 = 9)

Clan ER Large Laser: 11.25 damage with a 1.5 sec duration. If it did .9 damage every .1 sec like the IS LL it should do 13.5 damage. ( 15 x .9) But it doesn't. It actually does .75 damage per .1 second. ( 15 x .75 = 11.25)

For Pulse Lasers:

IS L. Pulse Laser: 10.6 damage over 0.60 seconds. Every 0.1 seconds it does 1.76 damage. (1.76 x 6 = 10.6)

Clan L. Pulse Laser: 11.8 damage over 1.30 seconds. Every 0.1 seconds it does .907 damage. (13 x .907 = 11.8)

So Clan LpLs do about half the damage per .1 sec that IS LpLs do.


Again, correct my math if i'm wrong but looking at the damage per tick it seems like IS weapons have the edge. But again, beams are weak anyways.

Edited by Sug, 24 June 2014 - 03:01 PM.

[Innocent]

I was mistaken. Post deleted.

Edited by Innocent, 23 June 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Well, what makes it worse is the fact that the Clan weapons have the same cool downs as the IS weapons. But, somehow, PGI feels that 0.3 additional seconds makes up for more damage.

Small Laser - 3 damage, 2 heat, 100m range, .75s beam duration, 2.25s cool down (3s total)
C-ER Sm Laser - 5 damage, 2 heat, 180m range, .75s beam duration, 2.25s cool down (3s total)

Medium Laser - 5 damage, 4 heat, 270m range, 1s beam duration, 3s cool down (4s total)
C-ER Med Laser - 7 damage, 5 heat, 450m range, 1.3s beam duration, 3s cool down (4.3s total)

Lrg Laser - 9 damage, 7 heat, 450m range, 1s beam duration, 3.25s cool down (4.25 total)
ER Lrg Laser - 9 damage, 8.5 heat, 675m range, 1s beam duration, 3.25s cool down (4.25 total)
C-ER Lrg Laser - 11.25 damage, 8.5 heat, 890m range, 1.5s beam duration, 3.25s cool down (4.75 total)

We've got to deal with the Clan's damage and range but the whole point of an increased beam duration was to slow down the incoming damage and to help spread it. At what point does 1/3 of a second and 1/2 of a second really help that much in the grand scheme of a long battle? So, the balance isn't right, really, in putting out damage or receiving damage.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 23 June 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[East Indy]

Sug, on 23 June 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Clan ER Large Laser: 11.25 damage with a 1.5 sec duration.

That's 7.5 DPS, compared to the Inner Sphere large laser's 9 DPS -- which means Jman's correct, and ER medium and small lasers are overturned if the intent is to be strictly less damage-efficient. (as they're less heat-for-damage efficient).

For ER medium lasers to have the same comparative damage efficiency, duration would be 1.68 seconds (or 4.16 DPS, 16% less).

Jman5, on 23 June 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

To the Mathmobile!

Have you ever danced with the dev team in the pale moonlight?

[Atheus]

Innocent, on 23 June 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

To the original poster, your assumptions are not correct. Your math assumes 1.3 second burn time for clan medium lasers, it is actually 1.5 seconds. The pulse lasers burn time is 1.3 seconds.

Just head over to Smurfy and correct yourself. You really aught to double check your stats before you go around correcting people who obviously know what they're talking about, though.

[Atheus]

Sug, on 23 June 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Just using beams is itself an disadvantage. You're comparing rotten apples to rotten oranges.


Is Damage Per Second even relevant when looking at a single second? My math made the Clan LLs look weak to me.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

IS Large Laser: 9 damage with a 1 sec duration, every .1 seconds it does .9 damage. (10 x .9 = 9)

Clan ER Large Laser: 11.25 damage with a 1.5 sec duration. If it did .9 damage every .1 sec like the IS LL it should do 13.5 damage. ( 15 x .9) But it doesn't. It actually does .75 damage per .1 second. ( 15 x .75 = 11.25)

For Pulse Lasers:

IS L. Pulse Laser: 10.6 damage over 0.60 seconds. Every 0.1 seconds it does 1.76 damage. (1.76 x 6 = 10.6)

Clan L. Pulse Laser: 11.8 damage over 1.30 seconds. Every 0.1 seconds it does .907 damage. (13 x .907 = 11.8)

So Clan LpLs do about half the damage per .1 sec that IS LpLs do.


Again, correct my math if i'm wrong but looking at the damage per tick it seems like IS weapons have the edge. But again, beams are weak anyways.

If beams were not "meta" due to being underpowered in comparison to PPFLD, the answer is to buff beams, right? Well, that's what just happened. You'll probably notice clan mechs in higher ELO games sporting some lasers investigating the very question of whether beams are still inferior now that they're higher damage, longer ranged versions of the now obsolete IS beams.

[Screech]

According to the Mech Bay Clan ER SL is 1 second duration, is it wrong?

Edited by Screech, 23 June 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Atheus]

Screech, on 23 June 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

According to the Mech Bay Clan ER SL is 1 second duration, is it wrong?

Nope, 1 second is correct for C-ERSL. The OP is aware of that, too, but read a little closer and you'll see what you missed.

Edited by Atheus, 23 June 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[valrond]

Let me get this straight. The title is talking about LASERS, not ER Med and Small lasers, but LASERS in general. However, there are SIX types of laser. 6. VI. And yet, the original poster talks only about TWO. What about the other FOUR?. Maybe the math doesn't work there?.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Nope, 1 second is correct for C-ERSL. The OP is aware of that, too, but read a little closer and you'll see what you missed.

I think Jman messed up small lasers though

A clan er small laser does 5 damage with a beam duration of 1 second. an IS small laser does 3 damage with a beam duration of 0.75 seconds. This gives clans 5 damage per second of beam duration and the IS 4 damage per second of beam duration.


And Small Lasers?

• Clan ER SL with 0.75 second beam duration: 1.15 DPS
  
• IS SL with 0.75 second beam duration: 1 DPS

A small, but noticeable advantage for the clan er SL.


Shouldn't that be 4 DPS or 3 DP 3/4s for IS SLas and 5 DPS or 3.75 DP 3/4S for the Clan SLas

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The issue isn't the laser mechanics, or even overall laser balance. It's primarily about outliers, most especially the cERSL (the cSPL is utterly redundant thanks to the cERSL). Any tweaks to the overall laser family need to start with said outliers and go from there.

[Atheus]

shad0w4life, on 23 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I think Jman messed up small lasers though

A clan er small laser does 5 damage with a beam duration of 1 second. an IS small laser does 3 damage with a beam duration of 0.75 seconds. This gives clans 5 damage per second of beam duration and the IS 4 damage per second of beam duration.


And Small Lasers?

• Clan ER SL with 0.75 second beam duration: 1.15 DPS
  
• IS SL with 0.75 second beam duration: 1 DPS

A small, but noticeable advantage for the clan er SL.



Shouldn't that be 4 DPS or 3 DP 3/4s for IS SLas and 5 DPS or 3.75 DP 3/4S for the Clan SLas

You're skipping the last step. Add in the cooldown between shots. He's comparing overall dps of the weapon assuming your window of opportunity for each shot is exactly 0.75 seconds. As in you completely waste the extra 0.25 seconds of the clan beam every shot, but are still taking your shots on cooldown. The overall dps of the weapon when wasting (or missing) the extra beam duration is still higher than the IS variant even when the conditions are maximally favorable to the IS version.

Edited by Atheus, 23 June 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Pygar]

Yeah, Clan weapons are powerful if you have a shut down or afk target to shoot at. Shooting at targets that are moving, torso twisting, and shooting back at you...it's like spraying people with a garden hose. (As in, not very good at killing things.)

[xMintaka]

Hello, my name is Lunatech and I actually prefer the longer beam duration of Clan lasers.

[Deathlike]

Congrats JHunch.

Now, when are you going to bring out some PPC Hunchies?



TBH, my argument would be less math, but moreso the duration of the shots. Shooting a med laser that is 1 second long is not that much different than 1.3 seconds long for the Clan ER Med. While you are required to spend more time at the target, shot selection will determine the success of landing more of the beam on the target. I'm actually surprised how much hang time and standing occurs from players (though, my medium Elo is whittling away slowly).

So, carry on Sir Hunchy.

[MourningZero]

Worth noting that these two that you have picked for your math are the only ones where it is remotely the case that clan beams compare to IS beams on damage per second during beam uptime, and even here I would consider 1.252/dps vs. 1.25 dps to be practically a push.

My guess is that these weapon systems are intentionally slightly stronger to create a role for the clan light mech who is unable to reach MWO light mech speeds.