588 replies to this topic

[MoonfireSpam]

Man poor Nico, having to try and expain this one Should have the people that designed this deal with it instead of hiding behind the good guy.

If you really wanted class warfare then should the mech module slots be increased rather than decreased? And make them cheaper so people can actually experiment with loadouts instead of basically paying a mech again in module costs.

More weapon or consumable slots does nothing to establish class roles, they are generic and unimaginative (+5% range etc).

Edited by MoonfireSpam, 30 July 2014 - 12:37 AM.

[Moriquendi86]

The new module system is currently good news/bad news situations. Good news is that I can now have 2 Coolants and 2 mech modules on all mechs which is great and I love ability to use consumables with buttons assigned to slot. Bad news is arty spaming and how useless weapon modules are (with exception of AMS modules).

I'm looking forward to see this system evolving. Maybe some mechs should gain some slots while other should loose some. More modules and improvements to weapon modules would be also great.

But please consider this one request: make mech modules 50% cheaper so I can start putting them for good in my 70+ mechs instead of swamping them around all the time.

[DaveRatters]

So, nothing to do with being yet another cash grab - force us to buy and use modules we don't have any use for?

Am SOOOO annoyed - will you just get on with delivering CW and stop trying to screw us all for even more money. Your player base is on a terminal decline and deciding to screw even more from this dwindling base will further accelerate the decline. Hope you have fun at the bankruptcy court.

[PhoenixFire55]

Lame excuse is lame Nikolai.

Nobody used your weapon modules. Period. Only reason you made dedicated weapon module slots.

Now you also force people to load up on arty and airstrikes, just because to stay competitive they'll have to use them, otherwise they'll be striked to hell themselves. Before the change I'd think twice wether I should trade my seismic and radar deprivation on a sniper build, or target decay and sensor range on missile boat for strikes. Now I'll just take it all and strike c-bills poor peeps into oblivion. Making people pay 80k c-bills per game for consumables WILL NOT increase your income, it will just piss them off. End of story.

Module system is bad and should never have been part of this game in the first place, no matter the implementation.

[MasterBLB]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 29 July 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors,

There have been doubts raised about the new module slot system on the forums. We were hoping we could take an opportunity to explain our decision as well as where these changes are intended to lead us.

The module slot system was changed while looking at role warfare. We are working on offering a bigger diversity of modules, we are also motivating players to play certain roles on the battlefield, which remains a great request from the Community. This is planned to be unveiled in stages throughout upcoming changes to the reward system and the new command system.

A bigger number of modules not only means more choice: The new module system allows a deeper modification compared to before.

While most Mechs come with 1 Mech Module (2 when mastered), the consumables and Weapon Modules offer a wide range of combinations and specializations. As every Mech comes with at least one of these slots, old Mech modules do not become useless: What changes is the choices you will have to make when specializing in a certain play-style. This choice will always be a matter of preference and sacrifice, depending on which modules the players would like to take with them.

We are constantly working on improving the game; This means changing areas where we think improvement is necessary in order to maintain or prepare the vision we have of MWO. Depending on the feature, this could affect any area of the game. We are very sorry if this has affected or will affect your preferred build of a Mech or play style, but we are always basing our decisions on what will benefit the majority of our players and secure the highly-demanded future of role-warfare.

Dear dev team
The sad truth is it's not an improvement,but downgrade.
You took back away modules we liked to use and needed them,instead allowing unfun artillery/airstrike/coolant spam and gave us useless weapon modules.

Please reconsider to rollback the change (I mean,the number of mech modules).Then implement module system as follows:
Consumables - one and ONLY one slot.One is enough for each role to equip module-of-choice (UAV for scouts,coolant for hot mechs,artillery OR(important!) air strike for others,not both)
Mech modules - as before the change.Well,increase minimum number of modules to 2 (poor Stalkers/Jenner F),3'rd one would be given with master efficiency.Some mechs had 3(4 with master) which was good.
Weapon modules - the problem here is they are total crap,perhaps with an exception of AMS Overload and Improved NARC whose show signs of usefulness.Anyway,2 is a good number,perhaps another one could be added after obtaining master efficiency.
The system I propose is way better:

• By separating consumables it allows every mech to take something to battle BUT prevents spam of it (ex 3x coolant for energy boats,or Artillery+Airstrike).Just one choice is perfect.
  
• Restoring good old number of module mechs will allow (by separating consumables and thus giving space) to equip some seldom-used modules whose are somewhat useful (Hill Climb let's say) but they were inferior to main ones/consumables.And still well-known and liked configurations will be viable.
  
• As for weapon modules,well...for now even one slot is too much for most of mechs.You have to scrap all existing weapon modules except AMS Overload and Improved NARC then reinvent them from scratch.Only then we can talk seriously about them.But,as for now - 2(3 with master efficiency) is a good start for mechs heavily oriented to direct combat,support ones could have 1(2 with master) - assuming in the future there will be some worth-taking weapon modules.

And here few examples of useful weapon modules:


Improved Gauss Capacitors - Charging Gauss Rifles takes half of the usual time,and the energy is not dissipated if not fired soon after.Gauss Rifles have 100% chance for explosion when destroyed and deal 30 damage to internal structure.
Productive Gauss Capacitors - You can charge up to three Gauss Rifles at once,but charge time is increased by 25%.

Improved Streak Guidance System - Streak missiles have better chance to aim at torso (restore old flight path when central and side torsos were mainly aimed at,before change)
Bigger Streak Warheads - Streak missiles deal 2.5 damage per missile.Max range is reduced to 220m.
Faster Streak Lock-On - Streak missiles require half of the usual time to get lock on target.
ECCM Streak - Streak missiles are able to lock-on highlighted target even under influence of enemy ECM,though they still suffer longer lock-on time penalty.

Bigger SRM Warheads - SRM missiles deal 2.65 damage per missile,but their max range is reduced to 220m.
SRM TAG Guidance - SRM missiles can be guided to hit chosen location by designing it by TAG,but their speed is reduced by 40 m/s

PPC Capacitor - Allows to charge each PPC to deal extra 5 points of damage and increases generated heat by 5 points.(Adds similar to gauss charge mechanic.Press and hold weapon group button to charge all PPCs in that group,then release it to shoot more powerfull projectile.If you overcharge you wil be given 5*PPC_number_in_weapon_group extra heat and you have to charge again.You can still just tap fire button to shoot ordinary PPC projectile.Possible issue - what if PPC and Gauss are linked in the same group?)
EMP improvement - PPC bolts disable ECM device by additional 3s,and the mech hit have info gathering slowed down by 15%.

Bigger LRM Warheads - LRM missiles deal 1.3 damage per missile,but their speed is reduced to 150 m/s.
Better LRM Concentration - LRM have better chance to hit torso.Time to get lock is increased by 25%.
ECCM LRMs - LRM missiles keep Artemis bonus for ECM-covered target,and does not suffer increased lock time against it.

LB-X Structural Weakness Analyzer - LB-X pellets have doubled chance to cause critical hit (and thus increased damage) to component stripped off armor.
LB-X Spread Control System - LB-X gains 3 shooting modes - Concentrated (spread reduced by 25%),Normal (as it is now) and Wide (spread increased by 30%).This would require to add appropriate option to toggle modes in controls mapping.

UAC Improved Feed Mechanism - Decreases chance to jam by 50%.Unjam requires 50% more time.
UAC Fast Feed Mechanism - Gives chance to shoot another extra bullet(2 total) in ultra mode during cycle period.Jam chance is increased by 150%.

AC Armor Weakness Analyzer - AC rounds have 10% chance to deal 20% of theirs damage to internal structure instead of armor.(Ex AC20 round hits armored CT and deals 16 damage to armor and 4 to internal structure)
AC HE Rounds - AC rounds gets additional 10% damage as splash in 2m radius,but their speed is reduced by 20%.

TAG Heat Designation - Each 0.1s you highlight the target caused it to keep TAG designation for that period of time when you stop tagging.(Ex you put TAG a mech for 10s then stopped.Tagged mech should be considered designated for 10s before fade away.This applies only to bonus to hit by LRMs,designated mech visibility should be treated unchanged)

Improved Flamer Fuel - Flamers deal 30% more damage and 50% more heat to target.
Thermite Flamer Rounds - Flamer can shoot at 200m max distance a round which sticks to mechs,causing usual flamer effect for 3s.Adds 3s cooldown to flamers.

Improved Lasers Heat Management - Allows to fire one laser more before activating ghost heat (so it'd be 7 for mediums and 3 for larges)
Improved Laser Lens - Lasers applies 15% heat they generated to target hit.

Continuous Pulse Beam Generator - Damage,heat generation and beam duration are halved,but pulse lasers have no cooldown.
Improved Lasers Concentration - All pulse lasers in weapon group are considered as one beam when determining critical hit damage amount.Allows pulse lasers to score critical hits.

Depleted Uranium AP Bullets - MG bullets have 50% chance to ignore armor and deal damage to internal structure,but critical hit chance is reduced by 75%.
Multibarreled Machine Guns - MGs have doubled fire rate and spread.
Guidance System - MGs have limited capability to track and better aim at locked-on target.(If crosshair does not point to targeted enemy MGs can aim in say 25o angle cone at the target,and they automatically add adjustment to hit the moving target pointed by crosshair)

The proposed modules are way more interesting than existing ones,don't you agree?
Anyway,the goal here is that each weapon group should have 2-3 cool and useful modules (so one will think like 'damn it,these weapon mods for LRMs are so cool,but I can't take all of them.And what's about my support weapons?'),while mechs have 1-2 (+1 with master efficiency) weapon module slots.
The best ideas are weapon mods whose add to them some unique abilities changing them significantly,like proposed PPC Capacitor,LB-X Spread Control System,SRM TAG Guidance or Thermite Flamer Rounds - that's the most desired direction when inventing anew weapon modules.

Hope you'll take the above into strong consideration,especially corrected module system.

Edited by MasterBLB, 30 July 2014 - 06:35 AM.

[Shadow Magnet]

So now modules like Hill Climbing, Improved Gyroscope and so on will basically go extinct - nobody will ever consider using them over Radar Deprivation and Seismic Sensor.

I really don't understand why PGI released this module system change without actually having changes being applied to the modules. There is no customization anymore. As said before, everyone will simply take: Seismic, Radar Depr., Art. Strike, Air Strike, optionally UAV/coolshot, no weapon module (except AMS and MG).

What role is that supposed to be? "The C-Bill spender"?

Really, a big disappointment!

[Widowmaker1981]

Just be honest please.

this obviously does nothing for role warfare, a child can see that

just tell the truth:

"we want you to use more consumables, because we think you have too many C-Bills and are not spending enough MC on mechs"

IF you are planning on expanding this system in the future to something that does encourage diversity and role warefare.. DO NOT RELEASE IT UNTIL IT IS ACTUALLY WORKING.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 30 July 2014 - 01:06 AM.

[CG Anastasius Focht]

Triordinant, on 29 July 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

If you actually spent GXPs and 6 million cbills to improve your AC20's range by 10 meters and used your other module slots for Cool Shot instead of Mech Modules back when you only had 3 module slots total, then there's no hope for you.

Ive got more GXP and C-bills banked than i could ever use, so it was no loss whatsoever, let me check that for you

100,000 plus GXP
160 million plus C-bills

What it cost me to put everything i want on my mech, was a mouse's piss in the ocean.
What it cost was negligable, and yes its only an extra 10 meters range, but its still an extra 10 meters, its a small advantage that didnt cost me anything in the context of my overall GXP/C-Bill balance.
Its all profit from my pov, what was i gonna spend it on ? sending postcards from the Periphery ?
(Have you seen what ComStar is charging for these ? even with my staff discount......)

Im paying the same price i always did for coolshot consumables, with the added bonus of having them auto re stocked.
Plus i have more functionality than ever , advanced sensor range and advanced zoom where i couldnt load them before.

Its such a definate improvement for my config, i almost feel bad about it. almost

Edited by CG Anastasius Focht, 30 July 2014 - 01:21 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

CG Anastasius Focht, on 30 July 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Im paying the same price i always did for coolshot consumables, with the added bonus of having them auto re stocked.
Plus i have more functionality than ever , advanced sensor range and advanced zoom where i couldnt load them before.

Its such a definate improvement for my config, i almost feel bad about it. almost

Of course this change benefits those that previously used consumables, since now you get extra stuff. Those of us who previously DIDNT use them, got shafted. i dont think increasing the amount of arty/air used in games by a factor of 3 is an improvement.

[Alistair Winter]

TL;DR: This change actually contributes to LESS role warfare. Modules need to contribute to meaningful specialization based on ROLES to contribute to more role warfare.

• Weapon modules need to involve a choice that contributes to specialization. Right now our only choice is equipping weapon modules, or not equipping them. That is not role warfare, at all.
  
• Mech modules need to be based on roles and mechs need a certain number of modules to actually feel and act different. With only 1 or 2 mech modules setting them apart, most mechs with the same build are essentially identical in function.
  
• Consumable slots are currently eliminating specialization, because anyone can pick the same consumables, and almost everyone is picking the same one. That is not role warfare at all, it contributes to homogenization. Make airstrike and artillery unavailable unless you have a mandatory mech module or command console.

Solution:

1) Force players to make a conscious choice of weapon module.
Imagine if there were only 3 weapon modules for all lasers, including ER lasers and pulse lasers. The modules let you choose between:
Significant extra range, significantly more heat
Significantly more damage, significantly lower range
Significantly less heat, significantly less damage

This is actually a hard choice, but players could pick a module that complimented their playing style, their role. A Jester with 2 Large lasers and 4 medium lasers could be played in 3 completely different ways, with these 3 different modules. Extra range and more heat means sniping, less brawling. Less heat and less damage means more damage over time and lower burst damage. More damage, lower range means brawling, at the risk of being picked apart by snipers from a distance.

With 3 modules for lasers, 3 modules for autocannons, 3 modules for SRMs, etc, there would be less modules, more specializaiton, more role warfare.

2) Give mechs a choice of consumables based on their role
The Highlander is a frontline assault mech, the Raven 3L is a light scout mech. They have completely different roles. They should not both have access to the same consumables. The biggest problem right now is giving everyone artillery and airstrikes regardless of other modules, which reduces variety, reduces role warfare.

If airstrike and artillery required a mech module to be equipped at all, this would let any player, regardless of mech, decide whether they want modules that improve their combat ability or let them give airstrike and artillery as support. The Highlander pilot and the Raven 3L pilot would both have to choose between either airstrike & artillery or radar deprivation, advanced zoom, seismic module, target info gathering, etc.

3) Let mechs have mech modules based on role
There are two ways to go about this. One way is to force the player to take all mech modules from the same group (e.g. targetting, sensor, mobility, etc) and let the player choose freely between all groups. The other way is to give every mech variant only one or two available groups of mech modules.

Solution 1 example: If the Catapult pilot picks target decay, he cannot also pick radar deprivation, because these belong to different groups.
Solution 2 example: The CPLT-K2 can always pick sensor modules (like seismic sensor or sensor range), but never mobility modules (like hill climb or improved gyros). The CPLT-C4 can always pick mobility modules, but never sensor modules.

I prefer Solution 1, but either of those would contribute to more role warfare, more specialization, less homogenization.

[CG Anastasius Focht]

Widowmaker1981, on 30 July 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

Of course this change benefits those that previously used consumables, since now you get extra stuff. Those of us who previously DIDNT use them, got shafted. i dont think increasing the amount of arty/air used in games by a factor of 3 is an improvement.

Oh come on, they are consumables, each mech gets a small and finite load of these, Arty/Air strikes.....

See the red smoke.......... get the hell away from it. i hardly ever get hit by these, you have notice and plenty of time to get clear.
I have no issue with ppl loading up on these, takes up space that might have been used on something that disadvantages me

[Sarlic]

The overal quality is dissappointing. I understand what point of the modules system was intended but you should have specifically split roles ingame. It needs to be clear what roles you can take. As it stands now everything is so dull.

Role --> Defensive --> add modules here such as medium pulse range only
Role --> Supporter --> add modules like advanced zoom
Role --> ...
...

You name them. Now everything is a mess and modules should be hardlocked to a role of any desire.

A Jager is a nice Allrounder. But a Locust will not choose a role with high defensieve abilities. Instead it will go for scouting or a supporting role. A Atlas will most likely go defensive, supportive or attacking role.

Roles should be more defined and modules more hardlocked to a specific role. Now its too dull and too custom.

[FlipOver]

Module Slot System Feedback:

I can understand you (PGI) have big plans for role warfare but this isn't the best path to follow.
You basically have passed the image of a company compelling users to use/buy certain products that weren't that useful to begin with (weapon modules).


MECH Modules:
Too generic, limiting the role of the players.

Good thing I didn't buy some modules I was thinking of buying. They would all be considered MECH modules and I'd have to chose between Seismic, TIG, Target Depriv, Capture Accel, etc.

Unfortunately you've proven right those who don't spend C-Bills anymore... why would they? To get everything changed a few weeks after potentially rendering some of their buys useless?

In the hope that PGI will actually take into account what people type in the forums I can summarize my feedback by saying:
"Good patch, good ideas, incorrect kind of implementation"

Edited by FlipOver, 30 July 2014 - 01:33 AM.

[Nauht]

So we can expect these new modules after CW right?

Why change it when nothing is ready or implemented. It would make more sense to do this when there are a few more modules at least.

Be honest, say what it is - a sink for more consumables to reduce our CB pool/earnings.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 July 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the AC/20."

Please don't worry about my health nor my sanity. Those things went out the airlock long ago.
Sometimes my job is going to include offering ideas which aren't always the most popular so that we may both help the community brace for impact while also finding ways to cushion it.

Many people have mentioned the cost of Modules as a concern. It's important to keep in mind modules are intended to be a late-game / veteran stage item. Though I don't advise against those seeking strategy: Looking for the most cost-effective solution in modules is intended to be a moot point. Where a traditional RPG might cut off players from access with level requirements, we have been setting the bar only based on the amount of currency you have accumulated over your many missions without any restriction except ownership of the Mech.

Some have mentioned my favorite Locusts have more weapon slots than are actually needed for most builds. It's also important to note that Range boosts are only the beginning of the weapon modules we hope to offer as time goes on. Those extra slots will soon enough be filled with all sorts of other goodies, to the extent that we hope to leave you scratching your head and wondering at night which combination is really the best you can field.

Finally, the last factor to mention is the importance of taking baby steps in dealing with balance so as to not revisit such fun occasions as LRMmaggedon™. Starting with just a handful of modules makes it more accessible and easier to review the overall effect of each one.

[CG Anastasius Focht]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 July 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

It's important to keep in mind modules are intended to be a late-game / veteran stage item.

QFT

Cost is not an issue for those who have been playing for a while

Edited by CG Anastasius Focht, 30 July 2014 - 01:48 AM.

[Dark DeLaurel]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 July 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the AC/20."

Please don't worry about my health nor my sanity. Those things went out the airlock long ago.
Sometimes my job is going to include offering ideas which aren't always the most popular so that we may both help the community brace for impact while also finding ways to cushion it.

Many people have mentioned the cost of Modules as a concern. It's important to keep in mind modules are intended to be a late-game / veteran stage item. Though I don't advise against those seeking strategy: Looking for the most cost-effective solution in modules is intended to be a moot point. Where a traditional RPG might cut off players from access with level requirements, we have been setting the bar only based on the amount of currency you have accumulated over your many missions without any restriction except ownership of the Mech.

Some have mentioned my favorite Locusts have more weapon slots than are actually needed for most builds. It's also important to note that Range boosts are only the beginning of the weapon modules we hope to offer as time goes on. Those extra slots will soon enough be filled with all sorts of other goodies, to the extent that we hope to leave you scratching your head and wondering at night which combination is really the best you can field.

Finally, the last factor to mention is the importance of taking baby steps in dealing with balance so as to not revisit such fun occasions as LRMmaggedon™. Starting with just a handful of modules makes it more accessible and easier to review the overall effect of each one.

So you rather bring back Air/Arty strike Armageddon to the game? As previously stated get a road map out of what is going on for this system and ASAP, you've already seen the uproar about it right now and it will only get worse as time goes by. Also please do tell how giving the Locust 3 weapon slots is a good thing, it was and always has been a scout/fast strike `Mech

Quote

One of the smallest 'Mechs ever built the Locust was designed exclusively for reconnaissance and quick strike missions, using its then-phenomenal speed to outrun most enemies. In a situation where it was unable to outrun its enemies, the 'Mech did have a light array of weapons with which to defend itself, but the Locust lacked the firepower or staying power to be a true front-line combatant; few MechWarriors enjoyed piloting Locusts for this reason. Within its weight-class though the Locust was considered an excellent 'Mech, overshadowed as a scout only by designs which mounted jump jets. Often when a Locust engaged in combat it was as a holding action until reinforcements could arrive, although when operating in groups of three they could swarm lone enemy 'Mechs who became separated from friendly support

Personally the cost of the modules doesn't concern me, as they should be expensive to purchase. Either way we need to see a road map (yay! I am repeating myself). Why would something like this get rolled out before having the rest or even at least 50% of it in place?

[edit]
Damn formatting
[/edit]

Edited by Dark DeLaurel, 30 July 2014 - 01:49 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

CG Anastasius Focht, on 30 July 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

Oh come on, they are consumables, each mech gets a small and finite load of these, Arty/Air strikes.....

See the red smoke.......... get the hell away from it. i hardly ever get hit by these, you have notice and plenty of time to get clear.
I have no issue with ppl loading up on these, takes up space that might have been used on something that disadvantages me

if you see smoke close to your mech, even if you spot it almost instantly you need a mech going at 90+ to escape, if its behind you or you were zoomed, even for 1-2 seconds, no mech can escape.

no, they NO LONGER take space that could have been used for something else. they used to, but they changed that.

it is completely ridiculous to see 48 called in barrages per game. if they all hit to full effect no one would need to fire a single standard weapon to destroy all mechs.

[Shadow Magnet]

Quote

It's important to keep in mind modules are intended to be a late-game / veteran stage item.

That's how I see them too. How about adding a 2nd level tier of mastering that you can achieve "late" in the game (like for 50.000 or even 100.000 GXP) that gives another generic module slot?

For long term motivation, I like to have a goal to work on, something that will improve my mech and/or gives me more choices to modify it.

[John Mechlane]

"Role Warfare"...the devs keep using those words...i don't think it means what they think it means. This patch was business as usual: one step forward, two steps back.

We are encouraged to diversify when choosing modules. This means we all should equip the useless weapon modules (a few meters extra range...really? calling it "boost" is a joke) I didn't really care about them until now. We looked at them, had a good laugh, assumed someone sniffed glue when making them, then moved on, and kept using other modules - like any sane person would.

Forcing players to take consumables ends in artillery/airstrike wars. There's always red smoke somewhere, so you may just wait in a tunnel for the first few minutes, until they run out. Can anyone else smell an arti/airstrike nerf incoming?

The bottom line is this. My atlas now has only 2 module slots instead of the 4 i'm used to. It has NOTHING to do with role warfare. Never gonna use weapon modules, since those are a waste of resources.

MasterBLB and Alistair Winter before me had some very good ideas. You should hire those guys, and fire the idiot who makes these decisions now.
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3595697
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3595664

Edited by JaniTheWeedman, 30 July 2014 - 02:00 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

CG Anastasius Focht, on 30 July 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

QFT

Cost is not an issue for those who have been playing for a while

Ah, my favorite excuse.

It's always a good idea to exclude new players. Gotta make sure there's a 6 month grind period before you can buy stuff that you want, rather than stuff that you need.

Edit: I will have the thread know that Bryan has repeatedly said the weapon mods are 'low level content,' so why are they so expensive and bad?

Edited by Vassago Rain, 30 July 2014 - 01:55 AM.