192 replies to this topic

[Jon Gotham]

vandalhooch, on 25 November 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

And most likely you'll get wrecked by some other pilots. Seriously, do you not see how inflated your ego is?

I don't think his ego is inflated, he just has severe issues relating to grouping up in games/units/clans/guilds etc. Look at his post history-near constant pro solo bandwagon promoting. He isn't arrogant nor egotistical-just has a gigantic chip on his shoulder.

the sort of attitude a community can do without really.

[Aresye]

Ghogiel, on 26 November 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

There are more reasons...

Like getting to play in what amounts to T5 underhive games with my main account. No really, clubbing baby seals can be a nice break from time to time. Playing ****** mechs with no pressure lol.

Notice I said, "solo players."

Personally I don't know why you would drop solo and expect to "club baby seals," if big scary groups are such a big problem. Only reason you'd be able to do that would be if big groups AREN'T a big problem, so the general likelihood of you needing to carry the team against a big premade is relatively low compared to running into teams of bad solo players.

So no, "clubbing baby seals," doesn't make sense as a motivation for solo players to drop CW "solo."

[Ghogiel]

Aresye Kerensky, on 26 November 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Notice I said, "solo players."

Personally I don't know why you would drop solo and expect to "club baby seals," if big scary groups are such a big problem. Only reason you'd be able to do that would be if big groups AREN'T a big problem, so the general likelihood of you needing to carry the team against a big premade is relatively low compared to running into teams of bad solo players.

So no, "clubbing baby seals," doesn't make sense as a motivation for solo players to drop CW "solo."

Notice I play CW solo. I club big groups. They aren't a problem. I farm pretty hard.


CW is like a T5 underhive filled with solo players and bad premade to be farmed. The hardest team I faced this week was a CJF pug group. Just managed to hit like 6 decent players, who are better than anything in the units you normally see do CW.

Edited by Ghogiel, 26 November 2015 - 08:10 PM.

[ice trey]

pwnface, on 25 November 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

This wouldn't work in CW because players and groups can choose what planets to attack/defend. If there is a premade on one side and only solo players on the other side queued up for a planet there isn't anything a matchmaker can do. If there were like 200+ players on each side for a planet, then it might be viable for a matchmaker to try to match groups with groups and solos with solos.

If you take away the ability for players to choose what planet they attack/defend then there is no point to CW at all.

Totally true, I agree with this.

Then again, there's more than a few players in CW that seem to exist as perpetual shooting practice for the clans (Probably in no small part why the Falcons are now able to enjoy traditional Capellan Cuisine) that simply cue up with "Whatever gets them a fast match". I think that in such a case, a single "Militia" cue would be ideal, pitting pugs against pugs, and/or distributing them to fill out not-quite-12 teams.

As for myself, I've popped onto the old Kurita teamspeak to find it a ghost town. I've used the VoIP for MWO but the audio is much worse, If not too quiet or ear-piercingly loud, it sounds like a muffled fast-food drive-through speaker. Even when a group gets together, there seems to be a communal "Not It" when the subject of who will be group lead comes up. End result? The same as pugging, except you hear the other guys on your team gripe about dying.

But prior to CW, I never did 12 man matches, but stuck to lance-sized stuff. 12-mans are a real pain in the ass to get up and going, and even more so to keep it up and going, as someone's always dropping out to eat or put their kid to bed between each match. Preventing the domino effect afterwards is a hell of a task, too. I think participation in CW will pick up a bit with CW3's lance-sized matches, as putting together a full-sized comms force will be far easier, matches will drop quicker, so on and forth.

Edited by ice trey, 27 November 2015 - 02:11 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

I'm looking forward to lance-level matches but probably won't play them myself. Everything is magnified because you make up 25% of the team instead of the 8% or so you normally make up. If people think 12 man vs pugs is bad wait till they feel the pressure of a 4 man vs pugs...everything is magnified......

I'll be waiting with popcorn for the first "4 man premades/sync drops are unfair" whines. Whilst the multiplayer elephant is still in the room hiding behind the desk lamp:P

[vandalhooch]

kamiko kross, on 27 November 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

I'm looking forward to lance-level matches but probably won't play them myself. Everything is magnified because you make up 25% of the team instead of the 8% or so you normally make up. If people think 12 man vs pugs is bad wait till they feel the pressure of a 4 man vs pugs...everything is magnified......

I'll be waiting with popcorn for the first "4 man premades/sync drops are unfair" whines. Whilst the multiplayer elephant is still in the room hiding behind the desk lamp:P

Yep. The cries of the "victimized" PUGs will be heard 'round the world.

[Jun Watarase]

vandalhooch, on 25 November 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Nothing like insulting real victims of violence by equating their experiences with some moronic gamer who got his ego bruised by having his head handed to him by a better team.

Funny, certain white supremacist groups also say the same thing regarding the holocaust.

>but but...its not the same thing!
>why doesn't anyone believe me

Quote

Victim blaming is a devaluing act where the victim of a crime, an accident, or any type of abusive maltreatment is held as wholly or partially responsible for the wrongful conduct committed against them.

Source : http://definitions.u...victim-blaming/

OP basically went : Its totally your fault for not dropping as a 12 man! Stop whining! Learn2play!

Its a classic example of victim blaming.

It's no different from going : It's totally your fault for not going out as a group! Stop whining! Learn2safety!

Edited by Jun Watarase, 27 November 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Jun Watarase, on 27 November 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

Funny, certain white supremacist groups also say the same thing regarding the holocaust.

>but but...its not the same thing!
>why doesn't anyone believe me

Godwin's Law already?

Quote

Source : http://definitions.u...victim-blaming/

OP basically went : Its totally your fault for not dropping as a 12 man! Stop whining! Learn2play!

Its a classic example of victim blaming.

It's no different from going : It's totally your fault for not going out as a group! Stop whining! Learn2safety!

Check your definition of victim blaming again . . .

1-crime. Are you seriously claiming that groups of players using TS are committing a criminal offense when they defeat a random group of would-be Rambos?

2-accident. That group of Rambos all accidentally started their MWO clients, accidentally typed in their passwords, accidentally hit the Faction Play button or call-to-arms, and accidentally stayed in the que when they saw their group was going to be made up of twelve solos?

3-abusive maltreatment. How exactly is beating another team using the exact same free-to-play game in any way "abusive" or "maltreatment?"

Paraphrased from Beautiful Girls . . . "You been eating retread sandwiches, again."

The fact that you think that losing at a video game is in any way similar to the experience of someone who has had a criminal act done to them, suffered from a traumatic accident, or survived some form of truly abusive maltreatment just shows how completely lacking in empathy you are. I find your attitude repugnant and demeaning to real victims who are suffering real hurt and are in need of real help.

Please stop posting in this thread. I don't think my faith in humanity can take the continued hits.

Edited by vandalhooch, 28 November 2015 - 12:48 AM.

[Krellshand]

vandalhooch, on 25 November 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Nothing like insulting real victims of violence by equating their experiences with some moronic gamer who got his ego bruised by having his head handed to him by a better team.

Welllllll, maybe you should see the link between you arguments and his statement. And its used in psychology for many situations - victims of violence, abuse, MOBBING, even personal failure. It is a widespread argument, and YOU just ised this exact profile to proof why PUGs are failing in CW,

"[color=#959595]. Does this make me mad? No.. its to be expected when a team works together and has decent skill as a bonus"[/color]


Yeah, see the point there? You go play that mode - you knew the risk. Your fault.

[color=#959595]So quit whining and quit claiming to be the victims of "seal clubbing" when you choose the outcome[/color]

Right there again. So I choose the outcome by not going into a untit or build a "friend" unit.
Thats EXACTLY victim blaming as it stands in the book. Not the game or ceratin mechanics are maybe a bit unfair for the majority of the playerbase, but the players are guilty of not predicting the outcome and only play in an organized unit.

Sorry, but with those arguments of yours, there is no use in discussing the matter any further

[Krellshand]

pwnface, on 25 November 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

This wouldn't work in CW because players and groups can choose what planets to attack/defend. If there is a premade on one side and only solo players on the other side queued up for a planet there isn't anything a matchmaker can do. If there were like 200+ players on each side for a planet, then it might be viable for a matchmaker to try to match groups with groups and solos with solos.

If you take away the ability for players to choose what planet they attack/defend then there is no point to CW at all.

Lol WUT??

So the matchmaker can´t just say - well, those are premade, and the other not = no match. ?????

Oh, the wonders of the modern age. We can calculate how much time a neutron need to cross the alps under the earth, but we can´t programm a matchmaker to seperate two groups and give them other sectors to fight over on a plantet (there are 13 sectors on a planet....)

It WOULD be possible without much fuss, bust you MIGHT have to wait a little longer in you premades - which would weight up the advantages with a few disadvantages.

And if you stoped playing because of all the sealclubbing, and I stopped because of all the premades - who is playing this gamemode in the long term? See the point? Everybody is unhappy with the way it is

Edited by Krellshand, 28 November 2015 - 02:09 AM.

[vandalhooch]

Krellshand, on 28 November 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

Welllllll, maybe you should see the link between you arguments and his statement. And its used in psychology for many situations - victims of violence, abuse, MOBBING, even personal failure. It is a widespread argument, and YOU just ised this exact profile to proof why PUGs are failing in CW,

And you are demeaning those people who truly have suffered victim blaming by equating them with someone who has experienced losing at a video game. Seriously? If you lose a chess match to your sibling you have been "victimized?" That game of Go Fish that you lost to your niece has made you a "victim?" That one time you beat grandpa at checkers makes you the equivalent of a mugger, ******, spousal abuser, or bully?

Get some dang perspective and stop belittling those who truly have suffered and truly need help.

Quote

Yeah, see the point there? You go play that mode - you knew the risk. Your fault.

IT'S A VIDEO GAME!

Are you seriously defending the notion that every sports team that ever lost a game/match has been victimized? Because I guarantee you that every single one of them knew there was a risk of losing and chose to play anyway. Am I blaming the victim by pointing out that there is always a loser at the end of a competitive game?

This is quickly becoming the absolute stupidest online argument I have been a part of. And I've spent decades "discussing" evolution with creationists and climate change with denialists. Those people can really "bring the stupid" when pressed but I had no idea there were others gunning for their title.

Quote

Right there again. So I choose the outcome by not going into a untit or build a "friend" unit.

If your goal was to win, then "Yes," you made a very poor strategic choice for this game.

Quote

Thats EXACTLY victim blaming as it stands in the book.

No it isn't. You are ignoring the fact that losing at a video game is not being victimized. No crime was committed against you. You didn't suffer any traumatic accident and you didn't receive maltreatment. You just lost a game. Something that happens to the vast majority of all humans who choose to play any sort of competitive game. (Multiplayer games have more losers than winners.)

If losing at a video game DOES NOT MAKE YOU A VICTIM, then pointing out why you lost CAN NOT BE BLAMING THE VICTIM. There is literally no victim to blame!

Quote

Not the game or ceratin mechanics are maybe a bit unfair for the majority of the playerbase, but the players are guilty of not predicting the outcome and only play in an organized unit.

The coherence of this sentence is not.

Quote

Sorry, but with those arguments of yours, there is no use in discussing the matter any further

Thank the maker.

Edited by vandalhooch, 28 November 2015 - 03:34 AM.

[vandalhooch]

Krellshand, on 28 November 2015 - 02:07 AM, said:

Lol WUT??

So the matchmaker can´t just say - well, those are premade, and the other not = no match. ?????

No it can't. The matchmaker has no access to my team's Teamspeak server. It literally can not tell the difference between twelve random players from twelve players who have removed their unit tags but are still working together.

Split queues destroy the need for any sort fluff designed to promote community gaming. You simply don't want to be part of the community. Fine. But why do you want to remove that piece of the game for everyone else?

Quote

Oh, there's wonders of the modern age. We can calculate how much time a neutron need to cross the alps under the earth, but we can´t programm a matchmaker to seperate two groups and give them other sectors to fight over on a plantet (there are 13 sectors on a planet....)

Please don't try to drag any science into this. You sound even dumber than before. Lone neutrons decay in the tiniest fraction of a second outside of a nucleus. Absolutely no neutron would ever make it "cross the alps under the earth" (sic). Neutrinos on the other hand . . .

Quote

It WOULD be possible without much fuss, bust you MIGHT have to wait a little longer in you premades - which would weight up the advantages with a few disadvantages.

Nope. We'd synch drop in defense of our faction's planet or in order to take your faction's planet.

Quote

And if you stoped playing because of all the sealclubbing, and I stopped because of all the premades - who is playing this gamemode in the long term? See the point? Everybody is unhappy with the way it is

And yet, hundreds of people keep playing everyday despite there being very little in-game reward for doing so. Imagine the tears you'll be shedding if/when PGI implement a more lucrative attractant in their FACTION vs. FACTION mode.

Edited by vandalhooch, 28 November 2015 - 03:52 AM.

[Krellshand]

Hmm, no. I dont see HUNDREDS of players most of the time, maybe 200? 300? 500? Not enough if you think about games like this. Whats 500 players? Or even 900? You should have battles on every aviable planet and not just a few, with MAYBE a thousand players dipping in that game mode a day. Thats still less than 50 players an hour stretched over the day. And yes, I see hours (noon / european time) where there is NO MATCH AT ALL.

Well thats what I call really sucessfull - a mode that you can play only certain hours a day because there is no one playing it otherwise. And we have the event right now....


Face it: You and your kind can´t keep the game alive alone

Edited by Krellshand, 28 November 2015 - 11:26 AM.

[Chados]

I don't think the real problem is units vs PuGs. I've been in a 12-man that got had by PuGs...but among the PuGs was an EmP 6-man, as I recall, all in Clan mechs, plus we were an IS unit on the counterattack. We aren't too bad, but we don't claim to be competition level. We lost something like 48-28, I think.

I think the real problem is attacking vs defending. The CW maps are biased toward defenders, full of choke points and such. Run CW on the queue maps and you'd see a different game, it'd look more like the group queue. I've been part of pick up groups in the queue with a lance of us that beat a 12-man on the other side. We had a lance of 228 with us. One of the few times I've been in a match with The B33f.

CW is also, frankly, boring. The maps are designed to flow you in one of two or three pre planned directions to one place. So no real strategy is involved, it's Zerg-rush to the bottlenecks on attack, or pile up in cover and wait on defense. Wash, rinse, repeat, yawn. In the old Kesmai Multiplayer Online BT days in the '90s, we had that in 4-man PvE cooperative. Surely we can do better now.

Edited by Chados, 28 November 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[vandalhooch]

Krellshand, on 28 November 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Hmm, no. I dont see HUNDREDS of players most of the time, maybe 200? 300? 500?

Over the course of an entire day? Or do you really think that the numbers you see are the exact same pilots all day long?

Quote

Not enough if you think about games like this. Whats 500 players? Or even 900? You should have battles on every aviable planet and not just a few, with MAYBE a thousand players dipping in that game mode a day. Thats still less than 50 players an hour stretched over the day. And yes, I see hours (noon / european time) where there is NO MATCH AT ALL.

Sure, and I see hours with several planets at 99+/99+.

Quote

Well thats what I call really sucessfull - a mode that you can play only certain hours a day because there is no one playing it otherwise. And we have the event right now....

I did note that participation has dropped off. I even noted why. Not sure what you think you are arguing here.

Quote

Face it: You and your kind can´t keep the game alive alone

Never said we could. Seriously, stop with this red herring stuff.

If the mode and MWO is to survive long term, then CW needs to be drastically improved and made more immersive. Your "fix" would do the exact opposite. And I note you haven't actually been able to explain why you think your idea will make the game more successful. All you think it will do is decrease the likelihood of you getting beat badly by a much better team. This entire thread really is all about your bruised ego.

[vandalhooch]

Chados, on 28 November 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

I don't think the real problem is units vs PuGs. I've been in a 12-man that got had by PuGs...but among the PuGs was an EmP 6-man, as I recall, all in Clan mechs, plus we were an IS unit on the counterattack. We aren't too bad, but we don't claim to be competition level. We lost something like 48-28, I think.

I think the real problem is attacking vs defending. The CW maps are biased toward defenders, full of choke points and such.

Counterattack/hold territory serves to help balance out any inherit bias in the maps.

Quote

Run CW on the queue maps and you'd see a different game,

Yes. CW matches are different from Quick Play matches. That's one of the many reasons solo PUGs get stomped so often. They try to play a CW match the same way they approach Quick Play.

Quote

it'd look more like the group queue. I've been part of pick up groups in the queue with a lance of us that beat a 12-man on the other side. We had a lance of 228 with us. One of the few times I've been in a match with The B33f.

CW is also, frankly, boring.

Many, many people disagree with your opinion.

Quote

The maps are designed to flow you in one of two or three pre planned directions to one place. So no real strategy is involved, it's Zerg-rush to the bottlenecks on attack, or pile up in cover and wait on defense. Wash, rinse, repeat, yawn. In the old Kesmai Multiplayer Online BT days in the '90s, we had that in 4-man PvE cooperative. Surely we can do better now.

If the strategies are so simple why are most PUG teams so incapable of executing them?

Note, I'm not arguing that CW couldn't do with more map and mode variety. Quite the opposite. It needs a great deal more work to become immersive enough to hold the interest of most players in the long term. Whether or not it gets those improvements remains to be seen.

[Chados]

Well, the PuGs can execute them on defense. I've seen them do it. Attacking and counter attacking, not so much-that's harder. Like I said, it's a no-variety mode, punctuated by ridiculously long waits and ghost drops, then getting mauled by the Clans because they have superior tech. Boring. As for me, the only reason I play CW is because my group wants to play it. I avoid it like the plague unless the unit is running a scheduled practice.

[Commander A9]

Refer to my topic, "Enough Whining," for a supplement to this arguement: http://mwomercs.com/...enough-whining/

When you click "launch," you consent to fighting whoever else chooses to oppose you.

If that's a 12-man, and you're not in a group, well...that's on you.

Plain and simple.

[Krellshand]

And we have to accept that this is written in stone and will never ever ever change?

Well, that would be a first in video gaming history. Right now, from Steiner faction, there are 340 ppl playing CW/waiting in queue. 340 Ppl at SUNDAY and NOON with an active EVENT.

Thats pathetic

So, either they make some changes, or they accept that this is the niche of a niche, which then takes a bit to much work to maintain I guess.

I mean, come on, ppl are complaining here constantly about those pug vs premade thing. For months and it just not stops. This is not going away

PUG Planets would allow everyone to play the mode without much hurt, suckering in the ppl who dig the whole "unit" thing and let the rest drool in their solo rambo pugs. Would not hurt anybody, except some pathetic sealclubbers.

And not, syncdropping is not an issue if you can only play on the pug planets if you are not on a faction list - those syncdroppers left to still do it are the hopeless cases, and there are not much of those

[Bluttrunken]

W A R K H A N, on 25 November 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

As long as I get my loyalty points though. It will not disrupt my Chi

What's your drop deck?