207 replies to this topic

[SlXSlXSlX]

Ihasa, on 24 February 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

I pretty much resent the constant characterization that people 4-man to pad their stats. I four-man most of the time on Comstar. If not them, I have RL buddies and other gaming buddies from STO to team with. Why? Because this game is boring by myself. It's a pseudo-MMO, even though I'm not the most social person in the world, your supposed to socialize a bit. So I do, and I enjoy it.

My w/l is 1.57 and my k/d is .99. Those are not impressive by any measure. Yet I get them mostly in 4-man teams. I don't play to farm pugs, the matchmaker gives me who the matchmaker gives me. Most of the people on Comstar believe the same thing. And when we recognize another dropship channel on the other side, say hello's and gg's, win or lose. I think that's what most of us expect, to be coming up against another 4-man most of the time. The rare time the matchmaker puts 2 teams together, sometimes we discuss what to do, and sometimes those on my team have offered to intentionally dc or something so as not to steamroll the other side that may be 8 unsuspecting pugs. And I don't run cheese builds (unless a founders Cat is cheese?) and will only participate in a cheese team (4 lights for example) for the occasional lulz. Most of the Comstar players don't run cheese builds or teams either.

There is a big difference in the various classes of players in this game. There are the competitors, the team-casuals, the lone -wolf casuals and the griefers. I think it's important to stop characterizing every player that teams with such broad strokes. I think OP, and other anti-social lone-wolfs, you are letting your team hatred (jealousy maybe?) cloud your vision.

And my Elo is probably exactly where it should be. I think the multitude of games I played Saturday are evidence of that, even if i was having a particualrly bad day. Still won more than 1/2 of my matches with my team. And that's all I really care about, that and getting back to 1.00 k/d.

Comstar telling us how it is huh?

Went on there once, and the first thing I was asked when I was asked to "4 man" was what my kdr and W/L rate was. I bet my kdr and w/l at the time woldnt have been up to their liking.

I laughed, and left. No one wants to be associated with people that define themselves by ig stats, except other players that define themselves by ig stats.

Comstar is funny, its a ton of guys saying they are pro, running 4 mans, which begs the question, why not pair those 4 mans, and fill the 8 man queue.

Theyd rather stat pad and pub farm. But thanks for telling us how it is.

A5mod3us, on 24 February 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

First off, if ELO knocks everyone's game play experience down to 50/50, this game is going to suffer, because people will feel like they can't make any real progress.

That being said, I'm no complaining about being paired with more challenging opponents, Yeah, I'm losing more often, but the challenge has forced my usual 4 man to think more strategically, and make our shots count. When CW comes into effect, I hope to face lots of challenging teams in our fight for territory and contracts.

But I will agree with one thing that seems to be a common complaint. Cheese builds are getting old. I understand that all's fair in this game, and an effective build is just that. But there are WAY too many people taking splat cats and AC20 K2s. The lack of variety in the game makes it really plodding and repetitive. I'm holding out, though, because I believe this game will get better later in development, and as more mechs are released.

Anyway, stop whining guys. One way or another, it's going to get better over time.

Also, I agree with Ihasa. Four manning doesn't mean stat-padding. The whole appeal of this game for me was to be able to drop with a lance or multiple lances and have proper lance tactics. Sure the game has gotten tougher, but that's just more reason for our lance to pull together even more. Like I said before, it's all for the better for us, because we're learning to fight more accurately and strategically.

Fair and close games are appealling. If you want to drop with multiple lances, we have a special queue for that. It is called the 8 man queue, what you guys want is to take your 3 buddies, with exp. and a snazzy decked out master mech, and face off versus new players, not on comms, learning the game. You can argue its not stat padding all day long, but that is exactly what it is.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 24 February 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Army000]

This must by why we get paired against 4 assaults and our team has 1.

We went beyond elo rating, and now they are making us fight UP our weight class.

This is the equivalant of saying that there should be no weight classes in boxing.

[Ihasa]

SlXSlXSlX, on 24 February 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Comstar telling us how it is huh?

Went on there once, and the first thing I was asked when I was asked to "4 man" was what my kdr and W/L rate was. I bet my kdr and w/l at the time woldnt have been up to their liking.

I laughed, and left. No one wants to be associated with people that define themselves by ig stats, except other players that define themselves by ig stats.

Comstar is funny, its a ton of guys saying they are pro, running 4 mans, which begs the question, why not pair those 4 mans, and fill the 8 man queue.

Theyd rather stat pad and pub farm. But thanks for telling us how it is.



Fair and close games are appealling. If you want to drop with multiple lances, we have a special queue for that. It is called the 8 man queue, what you guys want is to take your 3 buddies, with exp. and a snazzy decked out master mech, and face off versus new players, not on comms, learning the game. You can argue its not stat padding all day long, but that is exactly what it is.

No, I am telling you my observations about Comstar. I do not speak for them. Sorry your observations and experiences are quite a bit more bitter and jaded than mine.

[StrongHarm]

I sincerely hope that the devs are using extreme figures to find a baseline, and that they'll actually find that baseline, otherwise I have no intention of working my way up until my entire team isn't tactically re tarded. To expect new players to be repeatedly destroyed until they can gain enough skill to be on the good team is userbase suicide.

If this is final code and not baseline establishment.. there are plenty of games out there that don't have sad ist devs.. so no thanks.

I just started playing, and in every match I'm dropped into a team of tactically re tarded people who scatter and, are in-turn, decimated.

And please, before you decide to write off my opinion and say that I don't understand tactics or statistical patterns... note that I'm both a decorated combat veteran and a business intelligence architect.. so I think I may be qualified not only in opinion, but in a court of law as a subject matter expert on just this topic.

I do understand this is beta, so I'll try back later to see if you've found a reasonable baseline... good luck.

Edited by StrongHarm, 24 February 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

StrongHarm, on 24 February 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I sincerely hope that the devs are using extreme figures to find a baseline, and that they'll actually find that baseline, otherwise I have no intention of working my way up until my entire team isn't tactically ********. To expect new players to be repeatedly destroyed until they can gain enough skill to be on the good team is userbase suicide.

If this is final code and not baseline establishment.. there are plenty of games out there that don't have ****** devs.. so no thanks.

I just started playing, and in every match I'm dropped into a team of tactically ******** people who scatter and, are in-turn, decimated.

And please, before you decide to write off my opinion and say that I don't understand tactics or statistical patterns... note that I'm both a decorated combat veteran and a business intelligence architect.. so I think I may be qualified not only in opinion, but in a court of law as a subject matter expert on just this topic.

I do understand this is beta, so I'll try back later when you have your baselines... good luck.

I iwsh the golds would stop making alt accnts to further their arguments, fortunately we see them for what they are.

And I love how your new account is arguing a performance based match maker is player base suicide, when the alternative was no match maker what so ever, and as a result, a never ending parade of pub stomp 8-0's.

I have said it before, but apparently I have to say it again.

ELO match maker is PGI's first real attempt towards new player retention. A 9 mill crdit kicker doesnt save you when 4 splat cats with matching camo on ts, with tons of experience, crest against you.

Team stackers, pub stompers, your pub farming days are coming to an end. Elaine (ELO) is here, and shes very angry with you for fluffing your stats versus new players.

[Colaessus]

When does this game get officially released . . . . . . . has the same relevancy as OP . . . .

BETA Testing is the new, Finish product.

[Teralitha]

I find this topic funny, as it is based purely on assumption that team players are bad, and solo players are good.


This game has 3 teirs.

(bottom)1. Solo pug play. Roll of the dice on who wins.
(middle)2. Teams who coordinate get better results than solo pugging.
(And.. top)3. Team vs team. The end game.


I am sorry to burst your huge bubble... but players in the solo pug teir are in the trenches. Thats not to say you wont gain skill at this level, its just saying that.... your playing the game at the lowest level.


Someone who has done nothing but play teams would suffer from not having some solo play experience, doesnt mean they lack skill, its more like a live human being thrown into a zombie pit. If you make it out alive its luck, the same as any solo player.

Edited by Teralitha, 24 February 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[StrongHarm]

Your argument is that I'm an imposter? Your intellect is reflected by your call sign. A man (or boy?) of no honor will assume that others have their same lack of integrity, then question the honor of the speaker before even attempting to consider their point. They then find some accusation to redirect the conversation and relieve themselves of the burden of actual rational thought.

What you fail to realize is that my statement is not an argument but an observation and that you, my sad sad friend, are of no value or consequence to my observations. Do yourself a favor and be silent when you have nothing of value to contribute.
This priceless advice is free, 'tripple six'.

SlXSlXSlX, on 24 February 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I iwsh the golds would stop making alt accnts to further their arguments, fortunately we see them for what they are.

And I love how your new account is arguing a performance based match maker is player base suicide, when the alternative was no match maker what so ever, and as a result, a never ending parade of pub stomp 8-0's.

I have said it before, but apparently I have to say it again.

ELO match maker is PGI's first real attempt towards new player retention. A 9 mill crdit kicker doesnt save you when 4 splat cats with matching camo on ts, with tons of experience, crest against you.

Team stackers, pub stompers, your pub farming days are coming to an end. Elaine (ELO) is here, and shes very angry with you for fluffing your stats versus new players.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Arcadian Xero, on 23 February 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

8 mans are boring... for the same reason that the top Elo rating bracket is boring. Nothing but cheesey FoTM builds that abuse a broken unbalanced system.

Right now I absolutely hate playing, and it isn't because I am bad. And it's not because I played a lot of 4 mans (infact all you see in the upper bracket is 4 mans).

It's because I enjoy playing a lot of different mechs and considering there are only a handful that are competitive, that I only use a handful of times, I wind up having a real rough time most games. Especially with the unbalanced weight matching.

In fact every game I lost today was due to a 200-300 ton weight difference... I mean you take excellent players, who are supposed to be there, drop them on a team with that kind of weight advantage and put them up against equally skilled excellent players, that weight difference matters.

I guess my real gripe is that there are a lot of issues with the game right now that are compounded because of other issues. Right now there is a major focus on CQC with SOME long range meta attached to it. Combine that with the small maps which focus you into those brawls, then combine that with mechs that EASILY exploit the best CQC weapons (DDC, K2, A1, 3D, Muromets) then combine that with the ECM/SSRM stacking, then combine that with the weight imbalance and you wind up with some really REALLY awful games.

What happened here is that ELO just brings it all to the surface. Before when you would drop it was a random grouping of people thrown together and balanced weights and SOMETIMES you wind up on realy one sided fights... Now it's take the best players in the game, put them against each other with no weight matching... this is FORCING the top tier players to use these over used mechs that abuse the current system, and it is showing all the problems the game has EVERY SINGLE MATCH, and it drains the fun out of the game... at least for me.

This should be a sticky. Its the perfect summary of what most of us have seen fro months. The boaing, SSRM ECM, thrown on top of small maps has made this game less.

[DCLXVI]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

This is a clear summary, that I posted in another thread. I felt it might get buried amongst teh many posts there in, so I decided to turn it into a thread of it's own.

So you are wondering why a week ago you were winning alot, and you and your 3 friends were having so much more fun than you are today?????

Let me break it down for you.

___________________________________________________________________________
You were winning not because of your skill, but rather because the old enviroment allowed you to win by stacking for moderately skilled players, versus completely new players/terrible players.

As such your stats rose.

Now the match maker thinks your good because your stats say so.

This is afallacy. You are not good, nor were you ever. You were jsut ganging up on floundering infants to the world of min/max builds, and focus fire.

Now your getting paired versus lone wolves, that have been going toe to toe with you, as they get paired with the terrible players, for weeks/months. That level of competition has made them good, but they still lost because they had saddle bags (new players) not in 4 mans.

Now the saddle bags are off, and the match maker thinks they are bad because their stats reflect it. So what you get is, good players with bad stats + great players with great stats... versus you, a 4 man that never got any better, due to your soft competition.

As such, you will lose, alot. And, you deserve to. You elevated yourselves beyond your station, and until match maker realizes that you are not that good, ie, until your stats take a considerable hit, and look much worse, it will continue.

You, unable to accept this reality have turned to the forums, to share your tears.

Fortunately, I am here and happy, to break it all down for you.

Enjoy your well deserved losses, you have alot of catching up to do..

Good news: this will be painful, but you will finally begin to get better. It will all even out, your new stats, as you grow and improve. If you cannot improve, than you are forever destined to be BAD @ MECHS.

More good news: You've made my night. Sweet dreams. Enjoy your day of losses tomorrow, if you do not outright uninstall, becuse your pride (inflated) cannot bear the reality, that you are not that good.

_________________________________________________________________________

Now this may seem harsh, but it had to be said. Think if this as your intervention (cue bells) for your misguided opinions on teh meta today.

I'm sorry. The truth can hurt. But its better you hear it from me, than rage quit and go play Hawken. I want to save you. You can reflect on this, as you pick up your boot straps, and adapt/learn/evolve. I believe in you.

Cheers

TL DR? If you like the image below, go back to the top and read the entire post.

Amen! lmao

[DCLXVI]

Znail, on 23 February 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

The OP is such a waste of space as it has nothing to do with why people are actually complaining about the Elo system.

you know what I like about the ELO system? I havnt broke the top 1000 on the leaderboards once all weekend, yet ELO matches me with the top 5 players almost every game.

[SlXSlXSlX]

StrongHarm, on 24 February 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Your argument is that I'm an imposter? Your intellect is reflected by your call sign. A man (or boy?) of no honor will assume that others have their same lack of integrity, then question the honor of the speaker before even attempting to consider their point. They then find some accusation to redirect the conversation and relieve themselves of the burden of actual rational thought.

What you fail to realize is that my statement is not an argument but an observation and that you, my sad sad friend, are of no value or consequence to my observations. Do yourself a favor and be silent when you have nothing of value to contribute.
This priceless advice is free, 'tripple six'.

Strong Id be happy to argue with you. Go get your founder account and post your argument under your original name, and we can talk turkey. I love to argue.

______________________________________________________________________________

Teralitha, on 24 February 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

I find this topic funny, as it is based purely on assumption that team players are bad, and solo players are good.


This game has 3 teirs.

(bottom)1. Solo pug play. Roll of the dice on who wins.
(middle)2. Teams who coordinate get better results than solo pugging.
(And.. top)3. Team vs team. The end game.


I am sorry to burst your huge bubble... but players in the solo pug teir are in the trenches. Thats not to say you wont gain skill at this level, its just saying that.... your playing the game at the lowest level.


Someone who has done nothing but play teams would suffer from not having some solo play experience, doesnt mean they lack skill, its more like a live human being thrown into a zombie pit. If you make it out alive its luck, the same as any solo player.

This is really jsut a explaination for the guys who cant understand why pre ELO they won 4 out of 5 matches, and win alot less now. There are exceptions. Some pros still win that much. I would tell them to get their happy ***es into the 8 man queue, but I wont argue they are bad. No where in here did I say everyone running in 4 mans is bad. Maybe you missed post 3ish.

I will say that when you have the tools available to run 8 mans... see comstars droves of 4 mans, but instead choose to play verse randoms while enjoying the benefits of better teamamtes you brought, better mechs bc youve played longer, etc etc. that there is a number of factors that contribute to your sweet stats. ELO matches based on numbers, not assumption you do, or do not, pad stats. So when I see people crying that ELO is broken, or that all pubs are terrible, I feel someone needs to set them straight.

My fuel comes from the past 2 months of seeing 4 mans of ravens/atlas's, 4 man teams, rolling over everyone, taunting and berrating as they type l2p and such, and from seeing my own friends quickly turn away.

To me, they kill pubbers fun, avoid the good fights in 8 mans, reduce community growth which hurts everyone, all for their personal enjoyment.

___________________________________________________________________________

In short, they are poor sports. It is selfish. They couldn't hack it in 8 mans so they ran away crying it is too boring. Sorry, pro v pro is very slow, methodical and in some ways, boring. Thats your end game. When it comes time for clan wars you will look at ATC for 2-3 hours before each match, run 2-3 simulation matches w your strat, and then have one 15 minute match, where the majority of the fighting will all occur in 2 minutes. By and large, it can be boring, but it can also be very satisfying when it all comes together.
___________________________________________________________________________
Accept that. That you want to take pro players, verse random pubs of lesser skill, avoid other pros w OP builds in 8 mans, but make the new players face your OP builds in pub matches, and do so without any assemblance of a match maker is offensive. It offends the intellect of everyone to whom you proffer you pro stat padding blather. All these advantages make you look like statistic gods, and so ELO treats you like one, but you cant hack it when those same people you avoided in the 8 man queue are paired versus you in a pub match.

Dont blame the formula. Dont blame the system. Blame yourself.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 24 February 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[Alexii]

Might be some truth behind this. I mostly puged and had a nice 1.6 positive KDR but a negative win loss ratio. Now i still pug , but i win ~80% of my matches since ELO was introduced. So funny.

[Mechsniper]

Quote:"Comstar telling us how it is huh?

Went on there once, and the first thing I was asked when I was asked to "4 man" was what my kdr and W/L rate was. I bet my kdr and w/l at the time woldnt have been up to their liking.

I laughed, and left. No one wants to be associated with people that define themselves by ig stats, except other players that define themselves by ig stats.

Comstar is funny, its a ton of guys saying they are pro, running 4 mans, which begs the question, why not pair those 4 mans, and fill the 8 man queue.

Theyd rather stat pad and pub farm. But thanks for telling us how it is." Unquote

Wow, where to start? First, they make vagisil for what ails you I believe. Never once in Comstar have I been asked my k/d or w/l. I have been on TS a while now. No one in our merc corps (Ironically, Comstar Irregulars-the Allstars) asks pugs dropping in to enjoy the team aspect what thier k/d is. Nor has anyone been asked to leave for being a bad player. We are not going to sit around waiting for 8 people to get on if we have 5, 6, or 7. We also are not going to wait 10 minutes and 5 tries to have a successful 8 man drop due to a busted azz ELO system. When the system is fixed, we shall drop 8 again. Any attempt to purposefully nerf good players k/d and raise bad players k/d stinks of garbage, such as the current ELO system. Of course I expect no less when 51% of my fellow countrymen have proven to embrace socialism in the rest of thier life. CI will party on in 4 mans. If your lucky we'll be on your side . Usually we find ourselves against at least another 4 man, so I have a clear conscious. Sorry you had a bad experience in Comstar, but don't lump us all in with your limited exposure.

PS. Very nice gratuitous photo of a couple fine rifles .

Edited by Mechsniper, 24 February 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Gammanoob]

Mechsniper, on 24 February 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Any attempt to purposefully nerf good players k/d and raise bad players k/d stinks of garbage, such as the current ELO system. Of course I expect no less when 51% of my fellow countrymen have proven to embrace socialism in the rest of thier life.

Close matches don't mean your K/D has to drop, it just means you can't stomp newbies most of the time.

For all I can complain about Elo, at least at heart the idea is good, to provide more balanced matches, claiming it is there to nerf "good players and their K/D" is silly. The good players are still doing great and still maintain high K/D ratios.

Also, socialism isn't as bad as you think, we are doing quite well in Sweden...but hey I am sure you can spin it as some terrible propaganda that education is free, people don't have to pay for medical attention and in general we are a pretty happy group of people.

Edited by Gammanoob, 24 February 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Mechsniper]

It is not silly one iota. It is an accurate description of what is occuring. Make a noob server for those with less than 200 drops for all I care, but eventually you have to play with the big boys. If you like socialism, keep it. I prefer the ability to succeed on my own merits in all things in life, including in game. Fixing things to the contrary will assure my absence in the near future. Everyone does not get a 1st place medal in life. I am fine with my 3rd or 4th, or whereever I end up in life, but I earned it. For now, my teams are good enough to hold against whatever you want to throw against us. I welcome enough 8 mans that we can drop without multiple tries and long waits. REDUX ELO. It breaks the game.
NO LONGER PUGGING
Mechsniper.

[Gammanoob]

Mechsniper, on 24 February 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

If you like socialism, keep it. I prefer the ability to succeed on my own merits in all things in life, including in game.

As much fun as right wing propaganda is, even in a Socialist light country such as Sweden, you succeed or fail on your own merits.

------

However, back to the topic on hand:

With Elo the newbies will drop with the big boys, they will just have work their way up the bracket before it happens.

Mechsniper, on 24 February 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

It is not silly one iota. It is an accurate description of what is occuring.

I question how you can claim to have several good teams but still be suffering under the new system, if you are good nothing has changed that with the new Elo system. Unless you were relying on easy opponents to get a nice W/L or K/D, there is no reason you shouldn't be flourishing when playing better teams.

Granted you might be losing more, but that would be because now you are actually playing people with some idea of what they are doing and in depending on your bracket you will be facing organized teams.


-------------------------------------

That being said I do think Elo could be removed for 8-mans, since most people know they are for more "serious" matches, there is really not the same need to regulate who plays who. It does also take way to long to find an opponent.

Edited by Gammanoob, 24 February 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[Commander Kobold]

Arcadian Xero, on 23 February 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

Smurfin?

pugging, I first saw then term used when I was playing BF3, the reandoms all have blue names/tags so they where reffered to as smurfs/randoms/pugs

[SlXSlXSlX]

I have definately never said 8 mans should be elo based. ELO is for pub matches, to that I agree. Good point Gramma. I did not know it was applied to 8 mans. However, I can see a closer skilled matchup in an 8 man match lending to good fights, but honestly, 8 man is for the pro v pro. I guess its why Comstar is full of 4 mans.

Mechsniper, on 24 February 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

NO LONGER PUGGING
Mechsniper.

Mad he cant win in pub matches. I can live with that. Everyone knows lone wolves get to have all the fun anyways. We also get the coolest chicks.

Elaine, (ELO) sent me a pic of herself. (Guess she digs my bad posting) And now it all makes sense.



Apparently Elaine is a lone wolfer too. See you on the field ELO!

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 24 February 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Seems to be working good for me as a pug. Made for much more even games with in general better players. I have not started a new account to test it but it seems like it has has also helped new players have a better experience. So from looking at all the responses it seems like the people seeing the most "negative" changes are those with the best stats. Say the top 30% or something. So it looks to be working like it is supposed to. Far from perfect but it is making for more even games for the majority of the players.

And the only reason I posted in here is because the devs might read the forum. And if they do we need a balance of voices on if it it helping or hurting game play.