152 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

Ooooh math, I love math. So tell me how you came to this 1 in 100 number? Then again you think solo players AREN'T a majority so you clearly already have issues with facts and reality.

1 in 100 is what majority means. If its not 1 in 100 but rather 1 in 2 then its not the majority.

[Galenit]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

1 in 100 is what majority means. If its not 1 in 100 but rather 1 in 2 then its not the majority.

1 < 100 = 100 majority
1 < 2 = 2 majority

[Thirdstar]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

1 in 100 is what majority means. If its not 1 in 100 but rather 1 in 2 then its not the majority.

So you have no idea what majority means. Why am I not surprised.

Here, i'll help - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority

[PhoenixFire55]

grayson marik, on 26 February 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

So steps need to be taken a.s.a.p to stop this pug vs teams forum war and bad mood altogether.

So PGI could come out of the shadows and finally state firm that they do not want teams to play against specific teams.
(and therefore the pugstomping would stay as well as many players would leave instantly)

I don't understand why they went the way they did. All they needed to do is just like smb said in this thread and a lot of people were saying over and over ... make separate ques for people in groups and solo ones. I don't hate PUGs, I PUG most of the time myself. But what I feel is happening is that organized groups and units are getting screwed over and over while same time game is favoring 'lone wolves' more and more. PGI said this is gonna be a team-based game, I fail to see how it is one right now. Random put-up team is not a team even if still levels are balanced, its still just a bunch of solo people, especially so with no means to communicate or plan before match.

[Chrithu]

grayson marik, on 26 February 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Seriously, for the most part, a lobby is wished by the organized teams to NOT be forced to run the latest cheese build with 8 ECM in your team to have a chance!

Just wanted to comment on this little bit.

If you react in that way to those few groups of trolls that do such stuff for the purpose of trolling, wether you like it or not you are becoming part of the problem. If instead EVERY other team would ignore them trolls you all would run into groups constisting of ECM mechs only or lights only or Atlases only a lot less I think.

This kind of is similar to why Teams are hated:

Some Teams, VERY few in fact, do/did syncdrops to pugstomp. Somehow this became by word of mouth to: every Team out there just wants to pugstomp to carry their stats. So now every lost game in a PUG match can only be due to a pugstomp.

In the same way VERY few Teams bring cheesey lance setups into their matches. This somehow became: Every Team uses just ECM Mech/just lights/just assaults in their lances, so we have to do it too or we won't stand a chance in the competition.

Exaggeration and the loss of individual intelligence when acting in a group are what I deem responsible for both phenomenons.

Add to that the usual doomsaying. I mean how much threads were there before the matchmaker changes about what would stop people from using those cheese lance setups. Stir up people's fears enough and they will act preemptively. Assuming all others are bad people that will just try to abuse and cheat the system is a very cynical and in my view wrong approach at things. That's not saying such people do not exist at all and stuff like that wouldn'T happen. But it would happen a lot less if good people wouldn't switch to panic mode and react preemptively by doing the same bad things.

Edited by Jason Parker, 26 February 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Moonsavage, on 26 February 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

For the record - this thread was posted by a team player... as are all threads on this subject.

Voice comms are an advantage over typed communication. Why should solo people not feel cheated when they get beaten by a lance of 4 players who can instantly switch targets and call threats?

But I'm not saying anything about the game should change, as ELO balancing should hopefully sort out the imbalances.

For the record, my KDR has gone up by 0.4 % since ELO phase 1, and that's a lot for a Solo player.

Because like not using ECM, you are making a choice. I chose to play 3 days of PUG matches, I did fine, my teams got crushed sometimes. Sorry to say it happens, dust yourself off and try again, but don't sweat the teams outcome. you cannot carry a team. I had a few matches where We had Broceratops, Wispsy(7th Lights) & Ciller(2nd Mediums) and we got handed to! 3 top ten solo players on one team, beaten by Comms. Think of the havoc they could wrought if they were on comms!!!

[PureRiffs]

Rage lol

[Galenit]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 February 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

I had a few matches where We had Broceratops, Wispsy(7th Lights) & Ciller(2nd Mediums) and we got handed to! 3 top ten solo players on one team, beaten by Comms. Think of the havoc they could wrought if they were on comms!!!

Thats what a lot pug and team players have said a lot of times.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yeah but they say it like its a bad thing, not like I just did, with wonder and curiosity. Comms and good team work adds 15% to my team win loss. Maybe more cause I do PUG a bit.

[PhoenixFire55]

Captain Midnight, on 26 February 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

The situation where 8 pug players is placed vs. 8 premades would be rare on behalf of the PUGs, but it would approach 100% on behalf of the premades. If 99% of the games are PUG vs. PUG then the Premade will simply pull a PUG group as opposition every time. It might ALWAYS be a different pug group, but the drubbing will never change. The problem is that even if they only lose one out of a hundred games, it's just not fair for the PUG players to sit in queue and then lose automatically.

This is very similar to people not realizing how much of a problem it is to have a 2 minute time limit on queues as presently stands. You, in a 4 assault premade, might wait 2 minutes EVERY SINGLE ROUND. But I, in a medium, will wait 0 seconds (because after 2 minutes it instantly matches you with the first available group) and place against you instantly. This favours groups who choose ridiculous compositions (like say I dunno 0/6/0/2) who will search for 2 minutes and then draw pure pugs.

You'll play different people every single game, because they are all singles pulled into a team whereas you queued as a team, the singles won't stand a chance. This is pure abuse and if teams ONLY played other teams you'd see a *TON* of very poor quality teams disband and start queuing solo instead of pug stomp.

Those indeed are good points. What you said in the beginning is the reason why I started PUG-ing a lot ever since closed beta. But changes that occured since then only made it worse, 4 man group will still stomp 4 PUGs and probably stomp 8 PUGs as well. 8 vs 8 matches were no where near balanced before ELO and are even worse balanced with ELO. So are the random drops as well. All we ever needed is separate ques for people in groups and people in solo mode.

I don't want PUG-stomps, I want FAIR matchmaking. ELO is not fair at all. The simpliest thing that will fix most of my issues with ELO is not look for 16 players of same skill to make a match, but rather put 8 random people in one team and then find a close ELO match for each of them based on skill and put them in team two. The teams will still be evenly matched, but now both teams will have players of different skills. Players that aren't so skilled yet will learn from their skilled teammates, just as it should be.

Also, if you are bringing cheesy non-balanced premade then you SHOULD WAIT FOREVER untill you get another equally non-balanced premade. Will make people in groups bring balanced teams if they want to play.

[KinLuu]

It is indeed a bad thing, if mixed together.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 February 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Because like not using ECM, you are making a choice. I chose to play 3 days of PUG matches, I did fine, my teams got crushed sometimes. Sorry to say it happens, dust yourself off and try again, but don't sweat the teams outcome. you cannot carry a team. I had a few matches where We had Broceratops, Wispsy(7th Lights) & Ciller(2nd Mediums) and we got handed to! 3 top ten solo players on one team, beaten by Comms. Think of the havoc they could wrought if they were on comms!!!

Mr. Mallon,

Darn you. The line between good and evil just got a bit muddier.

Nice to see your posting powers used for good.

For the OP and those agreeing with him. I made something for you.

http://mwomercs.com/...ing-experience/

http://mwomercs.com/...ing-experience/

[Hekalite]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 February 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

This weekend I found out that playing with a Premade team adds roughly a 15% bonus to my win loss ability. However it does not affect my K/D ability in any perceptible fashion. So if you want more wins join a team on comms. If you just want to play the game on your own merits, PUG. But accept you will not win as much. I won 47% of my Matches in the Hero tourney, and even in my losses I scored in the top three more often than not. I did good. When I got rolled the whole team got rolled usually too.

So seriously, If what you want is to jump into a giant robot and have some fun, I proved it can be done over & over & over for three days. Roughly every 8 minutes for 4-14 hours.

I had a similar experience, but I wonder how much of the PUG experience this weekend was colored by the fact that a lot of group players were participating in the tournament. Most of us know the typical strategies on each map so even without communication you can sort of fall in line, form up and focus fire by instinct. I'm sure some of the teams I played on or against were all PUG but looked organized. I guess what I'm saying is that while the current MM is working pretty well, I think it could probably still use (and will likely get) some fine tuning.

To be honest, I was rabidly against the MM change when it was first announced because I just wanted to drop with friends and chill out, but I was wrong. This change was necessary. I wish it didn't take so long, but it was necessary. But so are all the group versus group options that people are asking for. They will come too and unfortunately they will probably also take longer than anyone wants to wait.

[Chrithu]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 February 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

Yeah but they say it like its a bad thing ...

True. But be aware that the bad thing is not the team being on comms. No one can really be that silly to say Teamplayers are bad people because they use comms. The bad thing is that for randomly picked up groups in the game there is not even in theory any way to get the same level of communication going and regardless of that they still can be matched against teams on comms.

Please just accept that this is the view of some people and do not start arguing again how they could go to TS 3 aswell or join a group. It get's old and brings us nowhere. And it isn't like anyone is wanting to take something away from you or is there?

Some people want ingame voice. Doesn't affect you guys.
Some want a lobby. Something you guys want too.
Until then some would be happy about seperated queues. Hey win/win, you will never again have to put up with PUGs ruining your matches, you have more challenging matches, and PUGs have the certainty that the other team was just a PUG as they were so no more whining about big bad pugstomping teams.

Edited by Jason Parker, 26 February 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Galenit, on 26 February 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

1 < 100 = 100 majority
1 < 2 = 2 majority

1 in 2 means that half of the teams you play are premades and half of the teams you play are PUGs, which in turn means that that number of premades = number of PUGs

[SlXSlXSlX]

They have a queue for that already, its call 8 man. They jsut want to take their op builds, their 8 man teams, cut them in half, and throw them at new and inexperienced players in the random queue. That they had gotten away with it for this many months, and recently had it "taken away", explains why theyre so mad.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 26 February 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[ferranis]

Would the lobby then be as empty as the 8vs8 premade queue now?

The thing is, as long as the (thanks to elo not so easy anymore) mode vs pugs is still present, the majority(!) of teams will use it.
People dont want competition, they want fun and i dont blame them for it.

Give the competetive players a lobby / mode to match them together on their choosing and tweak the elo in the pug queue that groups average at 50% w/l and everything is fine.

[PhoenixFire55]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

So you have no idea what majority means. Why am I not surprised.

Here, i'll help - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority

Yeah, and this definition of majority is why USA is so **cked up. 50.01% vs 49.99% isn't majority.

[PhoenixFire55]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

They have a queue for that already, its call 8 man. They jsut want to take their op builds, their 8 man teams, cut them in half, and throw them at new and inexperienced players in the random queue. That they had gotten away with it for this many months, and recently had it "taken away", explains why theyre so mad.

And if you only have 5-7 friends to play with you have to choose exactly which of them you want to play with. Surely 'lone wolves' don't have that problem, they don't have friends.

[Thirdstar]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Yeah, and this definition of majority is why USA is so **cked up. 50.01% vs 49.99% isn't majority.

So you're unaware that casuals/solo players are the majority in nearly every MMO and MOG in the gaming world. Including this one.

The last poll about the topic came out to about 30% premades and 70% PUGs or thereabouts.

So yes, majority. Lets see your citations.

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Surely 'lone wolves' don't have that problem, they don't have friends.

You're a vile little imp aren't you?

Edited by Thirdstar, 26 February 2013 - 05:09 AM.