142 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

I saw a thread saying "what's wrong with ECM" and I found that a little absurd.. so rather than put the burden of proof on the people saying that its pros far outweigh its cons, I'd like to place the burden on the pro-ECM crowd and ask:

What cons are their to balance out the pros on a single Guardian ECM?

Just as an example
Gauss Rifle: Pros: Good damage, Low heat, good projectile speed, good range..
----------------Cons: Ammo consumption, heavy weight, low health, explosive weapon.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Guardian ECM: ???



(EDIT: I had to edit it since people were misunderstanding what I meant: What's right with ECM in regards to balance?)
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After seven pages: This is where we got.

Livewyr, on 03 March 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

Wow, what a journey.

7 pages, some *almost derailing* from posts by 2-3 of the most obtuse people I've ever had the displeasure of reading, and not one single answer to what would seem like an obvious question for any other item or mechanic in the game.

With that, I will add this thread into the giant oak chest of evidence that ECM is not balanced. Anyone else reading this thread should strongly consider this.

Edited by Livewyr, 03 March 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Titan Osis]

There is nothing wrong with ECM sooo, everything is right about it.

[Livewyr]

PrestonCDawg, on 02 March 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with ECM sooo, everything is right about it.

Replace that with "Gauss Rifle" or "Splatcat" or "AC20 Cat" or hell.. "Catapult A1"

EcoolaidM...

[Mystere]

It creates vast oceans of male nerd rage tears, that's what.

[Shismar]

It helps curbing LRM spam boats. That alone is reason enough for me to think ECM is great.

[TB Freelancer]

The way it and BAP were implemented in MW4 is what's right with it.

[Livewyr]

(editing)

Edited by Livewyr, 02 March 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

The good: makes sensors more interesting than "hit R." But in its current incarnation probably too good for 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots haha.

[Livewyr]

Shismar, on 02 March 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

It helps curbing LRM spam boats. That alone is reason enough for me to think ECM is great.

Well.. at least someone gave an actual answer.. though it missed the point.

What con does it have to balance out it's ability to "curb" an entire class of weapon?


------------------
And pretending that simply curbing missile boats is enough to make it "right" would these two pieces of equipment also be OK?

Magnetic Field Calibrator: MFC
-1.5ton 2 Crit space equipment that reduces the speed of any projectile (fired from outside 270 meters) so much that it does little or no damage. The MFC could be disabled for 4 seconds by hitting the mech with a PPC to overload the calibrator, or training an Energy Drain beam on the mech. (Same style as TAG) Two MFCs within 180 meters of each other would overload each others' systems and cancel out the field.
Available on the Jenner D, Spider V, Catapult A1, and Atlas D.

Dense Fog Generator: DFG
-1.5ton 2 Crit Space equipment that envelopes the mech in Fog so that lasers have to be on target for .5 seconds in order to burn through it an do damage (with the remainder of the beam.) PPC charges would disperse in the fog in the form of lightning that would do 3-5 damage to the mech. This fog could be dissipated by a mech using Jump jets near it, using flamers on it, or by hitting it with missiles to disperse the cloud.
Available on the Hunchback 4G, Dragon 1N, Awesome 8Q, and Stalker 5M.

Those systems would certainly curb those snipers, therefore they're worth it.
Right?

[Tor6]

It made the jenner utterly uncompetitive and frustrating to use and made raven pilots who had been playing the thing since way before it became the OP FOM feel dirty for actually using their favorite mechs. Does that count?

[F lan Ker]

S!

Well, smoke grenade launchers would be nice addition against TAG and thermal vision. Short time but enough to let you move out from LOS.

[Livewyr]

Royalewithcheese, on 02 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

The good: makes sensors more interesting than "hit R." But in its current incarnation probably too good for 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots haha.

It's current incarnation is 2.5 systems, minus about 5-7 critical slots, 7-9 tons and 10 Constant Heat.

[Hawks]

It weighs 1.5 tons and takes two crit slots, as it should. That, and pretty much only that, is what is right about it.

Actually it occurs to me that at least some of the perceived OPness of the ECM is probably due to the cramped size of most of the maps that we currently have. I don't find it anywhere near as irritating on Alpine as I do on the other maps. Get rid of the tiny maps (or at least make them a lot bigger) and I think it will be much less bothersome.

In fact, get rid of them anyway. They're just too small. Right at the beginning of a match earlier tonight I was at the Spaceport base on River City, sniping at the enemy team at the Seaport base, and I thought to myself 'What have I become?'. You shouldn't be able to do that in a MechWarrior game. It's just silly.

[Royalewithcheese]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

It's current incarnation is 2.5 systems, minus about 5-7 critical slots, 7-9 tons and 10 Constant Heat.

Yeah - I'm a fan of buffing BAP (maybe it detects nearby units through cover and increases detection range of cloaked enemies?) and splitting ECM into multiple functions. So maybe you have one that messes with local electronics (but "no SSRMs within 180m" is pretty ridiculous IMO) and one that cloaks nearby friendlies from enemy sensors but nothing else, and so on.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

If each team has 1-2 ECM, then everything is great. A little communication and some situational awareness is all you really need in this situation. LRMs end up balanced so it takes a bit of effort to use them. Streaks are a broken mechanic that needs to be overhauled, but that's not directly an ECM issue.

It's when one side has 3-4+ ECMs while the other has 0-1 that the sheet gets fawkt up. It's like so many things in this game; in moderation it works fine, in excess it fails miserably. People that come to the forums to gripe after getting rolled by a team made of all D-DCs and 3Ls are justified in their frustration, but that frustration isn't directly caused by the mechanics of ECM.

That frustration is more appropriately directed towards... other things. Matchmaking maybe, or lack of restrictions in team composition, or... too much freedom in mech customization that makes actual balance impossible, or... something. I don't know the answer, and I'm fairly sure it won't be easy to find.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 02 March 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Pros: They nerfed Streakcats into the ground while making LRMs more engaging to play

Cons: They are only mountable on Lights that are not the JR7-D Jenner (aka, otherwise bad Lights), and the AS7-D-DC.

[Livewyr]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 02 March 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

If each team has 1-2 ECM, then everything is great. A little communication and some situational awareness is all you really need in this situation. LRMs end up balanced so it takes a bit of effort to use them. Streaks are a broken mechanic that needs to be overhauled, but that's not directly an ECM issue.

It's when one side has 3-4+ ECMs while the other has 0-1 that the sheet gets fawkt up. It's like so many things in this game; in moderation it works fine, in excess it fails miserably. People that come to the forums to gripe after getting rolled by a team made of all D-DCs and 3Ls are justified in their frustration, but that frustration isn't directly caused by the mechanics of ECM.

That frustration is more appropriately directed towards... other things. Matchmaking maybe, or lack of restrictions in team composition, or... too much freedom in mech customization that makes actual balance impossible, or... something. I don't know the answer, and I'm fairly sure it won't be easy to find.

See.. here's the big problem with that.. a system is not balanced if it requires having the same number of that system on either side of a match. If a system can only be balanced against itself, it is not balanced.

(Example: Missiles Pre-ECM: whichever side had more missile boats typically won. Example: Gauss pre-nerf/pre PPC buff: whichever said had more Gausscats typically won.)

Warrax, you should search my ECM balance thread (you can look in my profile if need be) and check out the quote at the bottom of the OP. You can read the whole thread if you like, in order to get a handle of a viable solution as we discussed our way to it.

Vlad Ward, on 02 March 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Pros: They nerfed Streakcats into the ground while making LRMs more engaging to play

Cons: They are only mountable on Lights that are not the JR7-D Jenner (aka, otherwise bad Lights), and the AS7-D-DC.

LRMs aren't more engaging to play.. they're more: I hope we have more ECM than them.
---------------but aside of that:

Perhaps you would like to give it a con for this pro?

[Jestun]

Shismar, on 02 March 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

It helps curbing LRM spam boats. That alone is reason enough for me to think ECM is great.

This is the only positive thing I can think of too.

[Livewyr]

I'm not asking for positives.. I'm asking for the cons to it to balance the positives.

(It's already the most influential piece of equipment in the game.. I already know its positives..)

[Vlad Ward]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

LRMs aren't more engaging to play.. they're more: I hope we have more ECM than them.
---------------but aside of that:

Perhaps you would like to give it a con for this pro?

That's not how LRMs work. If you feel like it is, teamwork/TAG moar. Having "more ECM" only matters when you're trying to stack Streak-dependent lights until they reach critical mass.

And I already gave you the most important Con for ECM. Without it, the COM-2D, RVN-3L, CDA-3M, and SDR-whatever are terrible, terrible Mechs. Using it only brings them up to par.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 02 March 2013 - 03:37 PM.