498 replies to this topic

[Earthtalker]

Roland, on 04 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

That's a surprisingly large number of players. Seems odd that only 8k folks would actually opt into the tournament, out of a population of over 100k.

Also seems odd that, even prior to Elo ranking, I saw the same players repeatedly... seems like if the population was that large, it'd be very rare to see the same players over and over again.

I thought this odd as well. I have repeatedly fought with and against the same people several battles in a row, in both conquest and assault, solo and 4/8 man. If there are that many people on a special event weekend, we should be able to reasonably expect at least 1/3 to 1/2 on and actively fighting at any given time. The fact that this is demonstratively not the case by playing for about 2-3 hours, then something is not adding up.

[Broceratops]

Roland, on 04 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

That's a surprisingly large number of players. Seems odd that only 8k folks would actually opt into the tournament, out of a population of over 100k.

Also seems odd that, even prior to Elo ranking, I saw the same players repeatedly... seems like if the population was that large, it'd be very rare to see the same players over and over again.

its a high number, but i kind of see it as possible. it

1) wasn't announced until thursday night, which is less than a day before the actual start
2) wasn't announced in the actual game client
3) actual start was during most people's workday, unless you're in eastern europe or asia
4) end time was way past most people's bedtimes on sundays, unless you're PST or in hawaii
5) total grindfest

i think it was mostly #1 and #2 ... most people just didn't know about it, and by the time they figured it out it was already clearly too late because they could see they were hundreds of games behind on the leaderboards.

even in my own unit of tryhards, only 3 people stuck in the tourney past friday and maybe half of our 20 opted in. so i could see the numbers making sense.

and seeing the same people is not a big deal. it happens all the time for me in dota, which assuredly has a healthy population. if you have similar Elo, then you hit queue at the same time, the odds are pretty good. and its not happening *that* much. its just happening enough that you notice and think uhoh!

Edited by Broceratops, 04 March 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[armyof1]

Very interesting OP, there's one part especially that interests me. It seems they had this founders collection originally to make the MWO game, but now they're actually doing 3 games. What I wonder is, were there seperate funding for the other 2 games or is in reality the money from the founders campaign for this game being split up to also be invested in the other 2 games? I'm not a founder as you can all see, but if I was I don't think I'd be very happy about them taking money from this game to make others as I doubt whoever funded this originally was expecting the funds to be split into several games?

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Thontor, on 04 March 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

How so? Maybe they've really been working on two mechs a month for months now... But one of them has been a secret Clan mech.. So they could have multiple clan mechs put into the game all at once whenever they decide to put he clans into the game...

Then after that the second mech wouldn't have to be a secret anymore and mech implementation into the game would actually speed up.

I doubt that is true... Extremely skeptical... But it would be pretty cool if it was.

Remotely possible. I file this under "hope for the best, plan for the worst: that way everything is either planned for or a pleasant surprise".

[5th Fedcom Rat]

No new mechs could come out for 4 months and I'd still keep playing. A lot. Only diehard players have even begun to scratch the surface of what is currently available, at least mech wise.

I'm not some little kid who needs a constant influx of shiny new toys just to stay interested. I'm still experimenting with all kinds of weapon and loadout combos and strategies on mechs I've had for months.

A bigger problem is lack of new maps, but there's no indication they're behind schedule with those.

In terms of Clan Mechs, I'd be fine if they just put off introducing the Clans for a year, to make sure they get it right. Just freeze the calendar for a year so next year is the "real" 3050.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 04 March 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[Lyrik]

van Uber, on 04 March 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

True. The information I'm referring to is from a swedish radio interview (hence no links) and the number I mentioned was just cost for development. The Dice employee later commented on money spent on marketing and that was a less secret figure. I can't remember it now, but it felt like the yearly budget of Luxembourg or something.

Nah, my country is small but NOT that small :-P
Battlefield 3 had a marketing budget of ~100 million $ http://en.wikipedia....ing_and_release

Edited by Lyrik, 04 March 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Tombstoner, on 04 March 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Re scoping of projects is done all the time. Using an old time line and meshing it with speculation is imprecise.
Changes to time lines can occur simply from key personnel leaving the company for person reasons like pregnancy or illness like caner or car accidents like what happened to a company of heroes developer. Not following a timeline built upon speculation is not suficant grounds for predicting the death of MWO. due to a perceived 4 month content gap. it could be filled simply by new maps or game modes.

Requoting this

Bryan Ekman, on 31 January 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

• We started developing MWO in the summer of 2011, with full production beginning in October 2011.
  
• We went Open Beta 1 year after full production started.
  
• We have a team of 43 people working on it daily, not including IGP staff.
  
• CryEngine is a renderer and a level editor, we had to write all of the backend architecture, customer support tools, website, money management, analytics, etc. etc.
  
• The average feature takes betwen 1-4 months to complete before test.
  
• Levels take a 7 person team 3-4 months to make before test.

Now even if say the time to create a map was cut in half, you're still looking at upwards of 2 months with features such as game modes taking a similar amount of time.

[LordDante]

Tichorius Davion, on 04 March 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Mr. Packard,

I see that you actually put together a good argument for what you believe. My issue lies with the fact that you say it stubbornly in a way that puts off an aura of "I am right, there is no other choice" While your evidence is wide with the citations of other articles we have no way to conclude that these delays will continue.

PGI gives us an agenda of loose dates in which to expect something. They release content as they see fit as it is their game. You say that Mechs are the heart of this game, but the soul is Community Warfare. For all we know a lot of resources could be devoted to making CW at this very moment. Maybe they have a backlog of Mechs already premade and models but are testing them or finding bugs that they find would be stupid to release.

I have no way to back what I am saying now either. MWO either will bust or it will prosper.

Your Sensationalized title and demeanor will put off the the wrong message. You do more harm than good by doing this.

right u are !
+1

[Grey Man]

Norris J Packard, on 04 March 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

No I am not, in what way I am doing that?

It will take four months to develop the first Clan Mechs, that is a fact.

At some point, it doesn't matter when, PGI will have to devote four months to their creation. Thus creating the drought I am speaking of. My estimate (based off the known timetable) just coincides with the delays of Community Warfare. I am not tying it together in any way.

This is the part of your posts I tend to disagree on, and only partially. I don't think they would stop and say "For the next four months we're working on clan mechs". More likely they will sneak them into the schedule interspersed with other content updates. Seeing a new map or IS mech every month and a half instead of once a month while they devoted resources to clan mech creation would placate players who are here for new content, and fit with a clan release available late 2013 early 2014.

But yes, they won't hit the timetable we all expected (which is sad) and any slow down in content will cause some players to leave. But I don't think it will be the end of the game.

[everwake]

I truly find this thread amusing, clan mechs? deadlines set by some made up universe?, and opinions on which mechs should be made available when according to a time-line from a fictional story? for real?

what we have is game where mechs can fight each other, there is no context presented in the game and no story. There is not even any possibility of teaming up and fighting together, not even any way of communicating with each other.

more mechs? why do we even need more mechs, it will take me a year to master the ones we have, more maps would be nice though, but what we need is context and better lobby and coms/teaming.

I had no idea it had to be this complicated to play a mechwarrior game before entering the forums...seems like awful hard work to deliver a mech game if people care more about the mechs delivery date, canon and fictional timelines than actual gameplay...

[Bubba Wilkins]

Earthtalker, on 04 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

I thought this odd as well. I have repeatedly fought with and against the same people several battles in a row, in both conquest and assault, solo and 4/8 man. If there are that many people on a special event weekend, we should be able to reasonably expect at least 1/3 to 1/2 on and actively fighting at any given time. The fact that this is demonstratively not the case by playing for about 2-3 hours, then something is not adding up.

It may come down to the time frame you play in and your proclivity for hitting launch immediately as soon as you can...the same time everyone else from you previous drop. Given that ELO is now in effect, your pool may be even more restricted.

I usually play solo and almost never see the same people.

[Ballas]

Will i would rather have a well developed game than a rushed project so if we only get one mech a month thats well developed with no bugs im happy.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Ok, OP. Have you considered that they still are doing the two mechs a month? And that we only get to see one a month due to the other being a clan mech?

If they started working on clan mechs in JAN and doing one clan mech per month, by the estimated clan invasion of AUG there would be 8 clan mechs for the invasion. Which would be plenty.

As for hero mechs, I guessed the Death Knell, Fang/Flame, and Pretty Baby as well as X-5. There's a pattern, they're taking the least favorite chassis and giving them a Hero Version. Not much critical thinking involved.


Community warfare is probably not going to be the concept they originally threw at us by any means. As far as it's concerned, CW is probably going to be something entirely different from what we think because we believe it to be one thing based on dated materials.

But this game needs more maps and CW far more than it needs clan gear. If anything kills this game, it will be lack of maps and no form of CW than a lack of clan gear.

[Earthtalker]

Bubba Wilkins, on 04 March 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

It may come down to the time frame you play in and your proclivity for hitting launch immediately as soon as you can...the same time everyone else from you previous drop. Given that ELO is now in effect, your pool may be even more restricted.

I usually play solo and almost never see the same people.

I didn't take that into consideration. I do have a more european play time even though I live in America. Only once and a while do I play "normal" time here due to sleep schedule and job. I will see if this changes i a few weeks for I have so paid vacation coming up and I will be roughly here for a good chunk of it.

[Renaissance]

So, I was taking another break from MWO to play some other games. Another which is in that I Can't Believe It's Not Beta™ phase. I returned briefly to MWO to see what's changed. Although I finally got my hula girl cockpit item (and I'm very happy I do), there still aren't that many maps, and Community Warfare is still on the horizon.

I'm not a fan of where games are going when it comes to Beta. But games in of themselves are constantly evolving. Subscription-based games are nearing the end and almost every MMO has some kind of f2p aspect (no matter how it's implemented) now, and microtransactions are business as usual when years ago they didn't exist. Now it's evolving again, and businesses and publishers are realizing that we really are willing to shell out money for a half-baked product, call it Beta, and keep making money on what is essentially no promise on an actual released game.

And there really doesn't need to be a released game when it comes to MWO. Beta is a label, as previously said. But what Beta means to me, is apparently different to what it means to other people. And that's fine, it's just one of those continuing evolutions of the industry. Beta used to be reserved for a special few people back in the day. NDA's were enforced extremely well. Do you guys remember getting excited at some of the beta content in computer and gaming magazines and drooling at the thought of a game you can't play yet? Well, here we are. Anyone with money can now pay to beta test a game. MWO isn't unique in this approach, and I won't pretend that it is.

This is just a symptom of the changing game industry where publishers are taking advantage of players who are willing to settle for less.

The worst thing MWO can do right now is provide a release date. They have absolutely no obligation to have a launch date, because microtransactions and a healthy game populace are keeping the lights on, bills paid, and families fed.

Years ago, developers would have laughed in your face if you told them that their customers would be willing to give them money on a regular basis for a game that isn't even completed yet.

Then again, even further back... beverage companies would have laughed in your face if you told them that their customers would be willing to fork over 3 dollars for a bottle of tap water from the kitchen sink.

But, we are willing to do that. And we have proven we are willing to do that.

Kickstarter is one more symptom of another evolution. Begging is supposed to be a socially-unacceptable trait unless it's not-for-profit. But kickstarter changed that. People are now basically telling people that they'll make a game if people give them money. And what's insane is that it's succeeding. If I was told Star Citizen was going to happen this way... you know... years ago... I would have found that comical.

Point is... as long as you and I keep giving MWO money... it'll keep on living. And I'm cool with that. This talk about a content drought though is a little disconcerting. I don't have much interest in the Clans -- at least not as much as I might have in the past. So all that is more or less left to someone else.

Star Trek Online had a really rough beginning. And it had basically a year of a content drought after Atari cut off the funding to Cryptic Studios, until it was once again funneled money by Perfect World Entertainment. The devs were under an NDA that they couldn't under any circumstance talk or even hint at what was truly going on behind the scenes, even though the players at Champions Online and Star Trek Online were feeling it. We felt the massive lack of improvements. We felt it reverberating through the game and through the forums. And although STO didn't die (in fact it turned its luck around quite nicely imo), the lack of communication from the devs didn't endear many people to Cryptic like they used to.

My massive conspiracy theory? That IGP is trying to sell PGI to another publisher. They made the cash grab on PGI. And maybe IGP is making poor financial decisions like Atari was (Atari sold Cryptic because it was the only asset that was actually MAKING money, not because of anything the game did or didn't do), and they're just waiting for a buyer before cutting them loose. Cryptic Studios also had a similar hiring freeze during this period of no money -- their staff was reduced to about a third of what it was, and noone new was being hired.

If there were no new hires since August -- it makes me break out my tinfoil hat. I'm just seeing a lot of conjecture and speculation that sounds way too familiar. Microtransactions on stuff people generally don't care that much about... no new maps (reskins don't count)... little dev information on what really is ahead. Increasing distortion on what is already an extremely blurry line of 'open beta' and 'release' stages. No new hires (or a hiring freeze). That was Cryptic Studios circa 2011. Although CO and STO were both out of the beta stages by that point. But a lot of that still applies.

Again, this is a wild conspiracy theory. I'm not going to say I'm an expert or that I'm right and everyone else is wrong. This is my opinion. My opinion could be wrong, and if it makes any readers happy, go ahead and say it is wrong.

[SGT Unther]

I always fail to see the point of these threads. What do you hope to accomplish? Other than of course to feed the trolls and have an argument for the sake of having one.

So what if they miss a deadline? I work construction and every job I've done has never gone the way it was planned.

[ciller]

Broceratops, on 04 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

its a high number, but i kind of see it as possible. it

1) wasn't announced until thursday night, which is less than a day before the actual start
2) wasn't announced in the actual game client
3) actual start was during most people's workday, unless you're in eastern europe or asia
4) end time was way past most people's bedtimes on sundays, unless you're PST or in hawaii
5) total grindfest

i think it was mostly #1 and #2 ... most people just didn't know about it, and by the time they figured it out it was already clearly too late because they could see they were hundreds of games behind on the leaderboards.

even in my own unit of tryhards, only 3 people stuck in the tourney past friday and maybe half of our 20 opted in. so i could see the numbers making sense.

and seeing the same people is not a big deal. it happens all the time for me in dota, which assuredly has a healthy population. if you have similar Elo, then you hit queue at the same time, the odds are pretty good. and its not happening *that* much. its just happening enough that you notice and think uhoh!

4 out of all Templars made any attempt at or knew about the Tournament and that is out of at least over 100 of us active. Maybe another 6 or so even opted in just to check a few statistical things and what not.

[KingCobra]

All this (conjecture)is pointless and baseless first lets assume there are 100,000 forum users how many play? I would guess maybe 20,000 fulltime 40,000 part-time 40,000 a few times. But the bottom line is how much are operating costs at PGI 100,000 a month? if it is that's how much revenue it takes to break even every month. Then after that there is profits to hire new personnel and develop the game. The game will go on for a bit longer online if this criteria is achieved I personally think if PGI rebuilds the game into a more BT/TT/PC MechWarrior type format they might prosper and make the game into something everyone can enjoy. Times have changed I have seen 20+ years of the MechWarrior evolve and new players want and expect more content for there money. As in there own character to PVP or PVE without the mechs or mech battles that include competition as in ladder type leagues and a true emersion into a planetary battle environment. Then a true chat launcher type lobby so new players can chat learn and practice to gain better skills. This year I will wait to see how MWO evolves if it goes down the road that there predecessor's took (Mektek) just adding mechs weapon but no true vision for MechWarrior then I will leave knowing I gave PGI my best shot at staying with a IP I have played for 20+ years and supported.

Edited by KingCobra, 04 March 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

JohanssenJr, on 04 March 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

But this game needs more maps and CW far more than it needs clan gear. If anything kills this game, it will be lack of maps and no form of CW than a lack of clan gear.

Clans being late is bad, more for some than it is for most, but Community Warfare... I feel like that's the lynchpin, if they muck that up then it could easily be all downhill from there. That's the most unusual part of this game, other than mechs, that sets it apart from other games. One of only two pieces of this game that is not just the same overly beaten path trodden for twenty plus years, and the mechs so far are working pretty well. But without viable CW that's half the uniqueness of this game in trouble.

If they can't deliver on CW, I think it'll be more damaging than anything else. Although to be fair, this thread is as I said echoing my own thoughts... I've been mildly pissed about the Clans showing up late since September.

[Thirdstar]

Renaissance, on 04 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

My massive conspiracy theory? That IGP is trying to sell PGI to another publisher. They made the cash grab on PGI. And maybe IGP is making poor financial decisions like Atari was (Atari sold Cryptic because it was the only asset that was actually MAKING money, not because of anything the game did or didn't do), and they're just waiting for a buyer before cutting them loose. Cryptic Studios also had a similar hiring freeze during this period of no money -- their staff was reduced to about a third of what it was, and noone new was being hired.

Aw crud. Now I'm thinking it too. And that's mostly because I was a Star Trek Online beta tester and stuck with it during the 'Year of hell'. Heck I still play it once in a blue moon, and then I cry a bit.

I know exactly what you're talking about, and now that you mention it, I'm seeing the similarities.