174 replies to this topic

[TheFlyingScotsman]

EDIT: I have clarified my OP in order to hopefully shed some of the incredibly blunt inability of responders to actually read and understand my point.

TLDR (Or too illiterate, read the bullets and not fail reply.)

WHAT I FEEL THE PROBLEM IS
LRMs are currently able to lock, track and land regardless of LOS if an ally is there to target your LRM target for you.

WHAT I FEEL WOULD IMPROVE LRMs
Forcing LRM users to maintain LOS, OR use a TAG/NARC (Either on the LRM boat or on the assisting ally) in order to have LRMs track and follow a moving target they cannot see.

WHAT I DO NOT WANT
I don't want the damage, hit rate, ammo size or range of LRMs to be changed.

WHAT WOULD THAT DO?
It would make scouts or support who equip TAGS or NARCS more useful, and make those Equips more useful. This improves the strategic gaming experience for EVERYONE.

OP FOLLOWS
"I'm not terribly fond of LRMs, and not just because I don't use them. I do, and they're awesome. The problem is that they are not awesome for the person being struck. Rather than being something avoidable, LRMs enjoy presence from anywhere in the battlefield.

They're intended to break camps and keep people moving, like a form of mech mounted artillery. The problem is that they are basically streaks that can hit from 1km away. I propose that LRMs fired at targets the firer does not have either direct, personal line of sight or tag/narc assistance from allies should not be able to track targets.

They would still function completely as they do now otherwise, but LRMers would not be able to suppress targets they cannot personally see. I'm all for team targeting assistance, but only when the team's electronics are specifically equipped to do so.

As they stand, they deal far too much damage without any reprisal, and detract from the overall strategy and player enjoyment of the game. Make the snipers work for their kills/damage."

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 08 March 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Xigunder Blue]

Fine - lets follow your logic. After nerfing LRMs (1000m range) lets keep on with that train of logic. Look at the Autocannons. With the exception of the AC20 (810m max range) ALL of the ACs outrange the LRM. Can't see them or target them but they can 'sniper' you with impunity very nearly across an entire map. So using your logic make them limited to 1000m range. Oh yes, what about the ERLL, PPC, ERPPC? Lets nerf them to 1000 m as well. Make em all equal. Then we can just rush forward and brawl, no need for mobile tactics, support forces, just arena brawling. Maps can be just Solaris games. We will have to remove consumables like air strike etc... (PGIs business folk will just love that - payday for workers will get tight).

I was using the fallacy of your pointed logic which was based, by your own statement, on the recipient of an LRM strike not being 'fine' with getting hit without responding. Do not want 'artillery' in a war game? Do not like getting hit from too far away to respond? Then nerf all the range weapons and do an arena brawling game. My own contribution is a compromise - ECM has already nerfed the LRM to a marginal usage, especially with the AOE. Make ECM apply to the mech only that carries it. Let it become a module that any mech can work toward and earn - taking its proper role.

[Fooooo]

I agree they are a little much against uncoodinated teams.

You would have to up the ammo maybe if they used your suggestion I would think. That way people are more free to "lay down rounds" at will.

I can't really think of a way to make them useful, but keep them balanced. After finally getting a stalker and trying out an lrm boat its really quite powerful against uncoodinated teams.

4mans I have come up against have basically had no problem, or have LRM'ed me to death instead. I would suspect the same is true in 8mans from what I have been told, basically that they are a not a big issue there atm.

So how do you make them useful in normal drops without making them useless in organized matches etc ?

TBH I would prefer a more support role like you suggested somewhat. Not sure what dmg amount, but much more spread ,so you can hit targets next to the one your firing at etc, and so if you do lay down fire at a ridge it can possibly hit people just behind it etc.


That or somehow let LRM's be targetted via some type of ground narcs mechs can fire that let you target that position. You would get much wider spread or have it so it aims all the missile at different points in the grid the ground narc is in etc , so its like laying down arty fire somewhat....if you understand that.....

Even tag could be used for this somewhat, Tag the ground and your LRMS can now target that gridzone for random barrages etc.

Basically,
If you reduce the dmg without giving some other use to them , they become even more useless in organized matches, and then become useless in normal matches.

Edited by Fooooo, 06 March 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[AC]

Xigunder Blue, on 06 March 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Fine - lets follow your logic. After nerfing LRMs (1000m range) lets keep on with that train of logic. Look at the Autocannons. With the exception of the AC20 (810m max range) ALL of the ACs outrange the LRM. Can't see them or target them but they can 'sniper' you with impunity very nearly across an entire map. So using your logic make them limited to 1000m range. Oh yes, what about the ERLL, PPC, ERPPC? Lets nerf them to 1000 m as well. Make em all equal. Then we can just rush forward and brawl, no need for mobile tactics, support forces, just arena brawling. Maps can be just Solaris games. We will have to remove consumables like air strike etc... (PGIs business folk will just love that - payday for workers will get tight).

I was using the fallacy of your pointed logic which was based, by your own statement, on the recipient of an LRM strike not being 'fine' with getting hit without responding. Do not want 'artillery' in a war game? Do not like getting hit from too far away to respond? Then nerf all the range weapons and do an arena brawling game. My own contribution is a compromise - ECM has already nerfed the LRM to a marginal usage, especially with the AOE. Make ECM apply to the mech only that carries it. Let it become a module that any mech can work toward and earn - taking its proper role.

You are not making any sense. The OP suggests making LRM line of sight weapons, and you compare them to other line of sight weapons ranges. You are not making any sense, or you missed the OPS point.

I agree that LRM should be line of sight weapons unless they are aided by TAG or Narc. The current system is like a C3 network on steroids as range doesn't seem to play an effect. I tried LRM's and got way to bored after about 2 games. Yes, I was doing tons of damage, but they are simply too easy. There is no challenge, there is no fun. Making them LOS would create a challenge for the LRM boats, and utilizing narc/tag for non-LOS use would give scouts a better definted purpose.

[Zyllos]

They just need to make the helix pattern MUCH larger.

With no added bonus, LRMs should be missing about 40% of it's missiles on a stationary target and spreading it's damage all over the mech. This is on average and should be different on an individual basis.

With each added targeting equipment (Artemis, TAG, and NARC), the spread gets 50% less. So, that would graduate from 40% misses, to 20% misses, and then to 10%.

[MechWarrior849305]

Actually, I don't get why you have to have lock on LRMed mech, if you are assistant. OK, you've spotted them, they are in your sight of view, so any of your teammate should see red triangles and get a lock-ons for themselves. So, why to get that red square, if you are going only to point them with TAG for better landing of your teammates' LRMs?

[Zyllos]

I also agree that they need to get rid of this "every mech has C3" equipped.

[Yokaiko]

I floated way back in closed beta that LRM should have different paths direct and in direct.

Indirect would follow more or less like the current path, slow, high arc, loss on LOS and/or fire on grid.

Direct would be more like SRMs in great numbers, if I can see an lock you you have a couple seconds to **** before you get nuked.

As such, damage would have to be reduced to 1.5 (there about).

I was also there when LRM was at 1.5, and no one used them, it took 700 missiles to red a stationary atlas. Pointless.

[Sheraf]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 06 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I'm not terribly fond of LRMs, and not just because I don't use them. I do, and they're awesome. The problem is that they are not awesome for the person being struck. Rather than being something avoidable, LRMs enjoy presence from anywhere in the battlefield.

They're intended to break camps and keep people moving, like a form of mech mounted artillery. The problem is that they are basically streaks that can hit from 1km away. I propose that LRMs fired at targets the firer does not have either direct, personal line of sight or tag/narc assistance from allies should not be able to track targets.

They would still function completely as they do now otherwise, but LRMers would not be able to suppress targets they cannot personally see. I'm all for team targeting assistance, but only when the team's electronics are specifically equipped to do so.

As they stand, they deal far too much damage without any reprisal, and detract from the overall strategy and player enjoyment of the game. Make the snipers work for their kills/damage.

You can totally dodge them from 1000m away

[Zabnicki]

Remember those, "Which-Way", books?
"Incoming Missiles" Betty said aloud within the confines of the mechwarrior's cockpit.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
Stand there and hope it does not hit you? Turn to page 17

Take into account the probable direction of where the salvo would be coming from and hurry to the nearest cover or concealment you can find? Turn to page 18

Push you mech into full throttle and run headlong into the incoming barrage? Turn to page 17

Page 17. The volley of missiles covers your battlemech in a cacophony of small explosions as you are jostled about in your cockpit.The klaxton blares and Betty signals that your right torso is critical and you have lost all weapons on the right side.

Page 18. You pull your mech up close to a mid sized hill as you hear a rapid succession of small explosions just on the other side. You see two missiles shoot just over you and one detonate a mere 4 meters from your cockpit.

[Orzorn]

Sheraf, on 06 March 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

You can totally dodge them from 1000m away

After using Artemis a lot yesterday, they actually can follow people parallel to the ground with Artemis. Its very nasty.

Make LRMs faster and reduce their damage by some amount. They hit like trucks right now, and their accuracy may be a bit much right now. MwHighlander actually HEADSHOT a guy that was MOVING at over 60+ hp/h with just two LRM 15 volleys.

It was insane. He only fired twice and got a heat shot kill. The missiles were actually turning right into the guy's head, and their movements were much more graceful than one might expect. Artemis is a hell of an equipment right now.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Make AMS take down more missles.....I put 2 on a stalker and it seemed to make no difference.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I think people need to post their hit %'s now that they are tracked, with LRM's. I bet you'll be surprised by how much LRM's miss.

I sure was, and this was after going 4-2 and having a good set of games for the most part.

[Jonathan E]

I hate them myself. Like most of the weapons, they must be boated to be effective. And while indirect fire in table top Battletech was an optional rule, indirect fire in Mechwarrior Online is virtually the only fashion that LRMs are used. So you have a weapon which requires you neither to see your target nor to aim? Brilliant! I wish I was at the meeting where someone suggested that so I could slap some sense into him. Seriously, PGI, a weapon that hits without aiming - an idea you liked so much that you created the streak SRM, another extremely controversial weapon.

Look at it this way - so you have to endure the pain of having your face melted off by 80 LRMS as soon as you get tired of hiding behind a virtual rock in an online game that you are playing in your spare time - BUT the poor guy who launched them is a 50 mph Stalker who can barely turn who is also hiding behind a virtual rock, across the map and not coincidentally, is ALSO HAVING ABSOLUTELY NO FUN.

What grates me is that in most online games when a sniper annhilates you several times you just respawn, spend 10 minutes working your way behind him and then knife him in the back. The thrill of that makes you want to play more, even if you got him back only once for the 10 times he murdered you. In Mechwarrior Online that's not really an option.

I've had fun with this game and some of the griping does seem petty and overblown, but it doesn't seem that PGI has the introspection to just admit (to themselves) that some of the stuff in game is not working for the players. Better to reverse course and just change something even if it requires a loss of face. PPCs inactivating ECM? Come on, it's insulting. Maybe that would work if my PPCs didn't inexplicably fire off in weird directions 25% of the time. Sigh.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

LRM 15 6 2,640 718 27.20% 00:25:40
1,573

That's a 30% hit rate, I do use TAG and Artemis. I had 3 kills from that in the 6 games I played.

And I'm not saying I'm amazing by the way, but I do a lot of moving to make sure I have angles to hit from and try not to shoot at locks that are fluctuating.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 06 March 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[MechWarrior849305]

Of all things I've seen in this game, LRMs, which turn about 90 degrees near to ground and move parallel to it, are the most strange...

Not to mention SSRMs of course

Edited by DuoAngel, 06 March 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[malibu43]

I just bought a Cat-C4 this week. Right now it's fitted with LRM20's. It's my first experience trying to be missile boat, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

The first 5 or so matches (pre 3/5 patch) were against not very well organized teams. Folks were not using cover and I was racking up 400-500 damage per round burning through my ammo.

I played 8 or so matches last night and this morning (post 3/5 patch) and for some reason (new patch, ELO, I'm not really sure...) I seemed to draw much better opponents that used cover well and often had ECM. My LRM's were more or less worthless (even after I added a TAG to my build).

So what does that mean? My experience was that their effectiveness seemed to bounce between OP and useless. In my case, the answer seems like it would be to reduce the LRM damage or increase the spread a little (so they aren't OP against noobs), but (wait for it...) dial back the effects of ECM so LRMs don't become worthless against a better team with ECM.

I don't know. Just an initial though. I'm sure someone can poke a bunch of holes in it...

Edited by malibu43, 06 March 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I think with the new stat tracking it will become very evident that LRM's are not the overpowered beast some people want to think.

They are just like every other weapon when used again players who do not understand the mechanics of the game.

If you stand out in the open, whether it's LRM's or Gauss Rifles you are going to get ripped apart.

Just be happy you get 3 or 4 warnings when LRM's are coming which give you a chance to find ECM or cover.

[Sheraf]

It reminds me to never exchangee LRM with a guass cat

malibu43, on 06 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

I just bought a Cat-C4 this week. Right now it's fitted with LRM20's. It's my first experience trying to be missile boat, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

The first 5 or so matches (pre 3/5 patch) were against not very well organized teams. Folks were not using cover and I was racking up 400-500 damage per round burning through my ammo.

I played 8 or so matches last night and this morning (post 3/5 patch) and for some reason (new patch, ELO, I'm not really sure...) I seemed to draw much better opponents that used cover well and often had ECM. My LRM's were more or less worthless (even after I added a TAG to my build).

So what does that mean? My experience was that their effectiveness seemed to bounce between OP and useless. In my case, the answer seems like it would be to reduce the LRM damage or increase the spread a little (so they aren't OP against noobs), but (wait for it...) dial back the effects of ECM so LRMs don't become worthless against a better team with ECM.

I don't know. Just an initial though. I'm sure someone can poke a bunch of holes in it...

They are basically run at you and yell "Shoot me"

Edited by Sheraf, 06 March 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Or, allow LRMs to be shot down by lasers, machine guns, LBx autocannons and other targeting missiles.

Sheraf, on 06 March 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

You can totally dodge them from 1000m away

Only if you are not trying to get closer to the LRM boat and they have no target assistance from their team.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 06 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.