400 replies to this topic

[Major Scumbag]

EXPNobody, on 08 March 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

the skill of playing LRMS are not all just about shooting, well, to counter your point, you have to know the terrain whether your missile can hit it or not, otherwise you are just wasting missile and not doing anything.

the skill of playing LRMS i think it's about how to position yourself in a dynamic battlefield, you cant go too forward and you cant stay too far back, tricky postition to find.

True but it is easier to get in the right spot with LRM then a direct fire weapon. They just cant hit over hills or around buildings. LRM can to a certain point. Every mech regardless of its load out. Terrian and being at the right place at the right time is key.

[Royalewithcheese]

Noth, on 08 March 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'll just point to nearly any brawler that gets stuck on alpine. There are only a few spots that offer enough cover to close without going so far out of the way that the battle can be decided before you get into position, and in those few places a well positioned LRM boat can still hit you because of the height difference and the lrms dropping in at a steeper angle.

I don't typically die to LRMs, but they dictate what I do and how I play more than pretty much any other piece of equipment sans the ECM. To me things that dictate play so much are too strong.

Brawlers are, in my experience at least, pretty amazing on Alpine if you use hills and wait for the opportune moment to attack. Like seriously, my DDC (I alternate between STD330/2xUAC5/2xMLas/3xSRM6+A/ECM and STD350/AC20/2xMLas/3xSRM6+A/ECM) has had some of its best rounds on Alpine. The hills are great for controlling engagement distance.

In terms of LRMs affecting how ppl play the game, keep in mind that if it wasn't LRMs it would be PPC/Gauss/UAC5/LLas/etc. Sticking your head out without a plan is generally a bad idea in MWO regardless of what the other side has, and LRMs at least give you the chance to get back into cover

[Major Scumbag]

Praehotec8, on 08 March 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I actually disagree, I find it easier to engage with direct fire weapons and fire-forget weapons than hold LRM lock over long distances. Direct fire is more twitch, while LRM fire is more about choosing the right targets. Although neither requires particular amounts of great skill.

What?? Give me a direct fire weapon with auto lock and auto hit. Then you would have a point. Holding a curser on a target is way easier then judging distance and leading target to get a hit. If you think it is the same skill hitting max range with a direct fire weapon compared to LRM hitting. You are confused and need to try it more. Plus when you hit at max range with missles. Way better damage then a direct fire weapon hitting at 1000m.
I do see LRM are needed and different type of skill involved. I just hate how they focus on a weapon system already used the most and they just forget about ballistics. We do have another mech coming out and sadly they focused on LRM and this mech is ballistic based.

Edited by Major Scumbag, 08 March 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[Noth]

Royalewithcheese, on 08 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Brawlers are, in my experience at least, pretty amazing on Alpine if you use hills and wait for the opportune moment to attack. Like seriously, my DDC (I alternate between STD330/2xUAC5/2xMLas/3xSRM6+A/ECM and STD350/AC20/2xMLas/3xSRM6+A/ECM) has had some of its best rounds on Alpine. The hills are great for controlling engagement distance.

In terms of LRMs affecting how ppl play the game, keep in mind that if it wasn't LRMs it would be PPC/Gauss/UAC5/LLas/etc. Sticking your head out without a plan is generally a bad idea in MWO regardless of what the other side has, and LRMs at least give you the chance to get back into cover

In a good balance, I would be just as afraid of those I am of LRMs, and that is just not the case. On LRMs they scare the crap out of me or are useless against me. If I have a choice of stepping out for a LRM barrage from an LRM boat or stepping out in front of a PPC boat, I choose the PPC boat every time unless I'm in ECM coverage. Because of how easy they are to counter but how powerful they can be against unorganized teams, they are broken. It's not just because they are too strong. Please read my very first post in this thread where I describe what should be done to something that can pug stomp easily but is nigh useless in competitive and team play.

Edited by Noth, 08 March 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[Sean Casey]

As a mid to close range brawler, I generally don't have trouble with LRM's. In fact I generally will actively suppress LRM boats, especially if I see one without any close range weapons. LRM's are a problem if your team doesn't suppress them. But that is part of the strategy. Use cover, get in close, and then nail them. Although I will admit a A1 with SRM and LRM's caught me good last night at 190m.

[Fut]

Noth, on 08 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

They do explode at max range. it's the fact that there is wide open areas without proper cover to avoid the LRMs and the fact that the height differences can make lrms literally drop right on your head even if you are in the areas with a proper amount of cover.

Alright, so I stand by my point then. If you're hitting with 100% of your missiles at targets 1km away, you're a lucky ******* and I kind of envy you.

The wide open spaces in Alpine are a whole different issue though. In some ways they can help you out. If you're staring at a couple LRM boats, don't tread right towards them, circle out to the sides, you have so much space in Alpine that you should be able to go unnoticed. Come at them from an angle they're not expecting...etc.

[Noth]

Fut, on 08 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Alright, so I stand by my point then. If you're hitting with 100% of your missiles at targets 1km away, you're a lucky ******* and I kind of envy you.

The wide open spaces in Alpine are a whole different issue though. In some ways they can help you out. If you're staring at a couple LRM boats, don't tread right towards them, circle out to the sides, you have so much space in Alpine that you should be able to go unnoticed. Come at them from an angle they're not expecting...etc.

You missed where I said that on Alpine to do that you often have to circle so far that the battle is often decided before you get into position.

[Mercules]

RagenBull, on 08 March 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

YOu have to know 0 about your terrain to see if they are hitting you just look at the mech that is locked, you have all his info(what weapons he has, where he is dmged) or you can look at your crosshairs if they go red boom you are landing.

Do you realize how many salvos of missiles you would waste before you got confirmation the first one hit which of course is no guaranty that the second or third won't hit the building they just walked behind. The targeting part of LRMs is simple, the hitting with them is not. With a good spotter however, who is relaying info on voice, they become rather nasty.

Noth, on 08 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

You missed where I said that on Alpine to do that you often have to circle so far that the battle is often decided before you get into position.

Which balances out River City where it is difficult to have clear lines of fire for LRMs and cover is almost always a short step to the left or right. Yes, on that one map they work particularly well, however so do nearly all the long ranged weaponry like PPCs, small caliber ACs, and ERLL.

[Noth]

Mercules, on 08 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Do you realize how many salvos of missiles you would waste before you got confirmation the first one hit which of course is no guaranty that the second or third won't hit the building they just walked behind. The targeting part of LRMs is simple, the hitting with them is not. With a good spotter however, who is relaying info on voice, they become rather nasty.



Which balances out River City where it is difficult to have clear lines of fire for LRMs and cover is almost always a short step to the left or right. Yes, on that one map they work particularly well, however so do nearly all the long ranged weaponry like PPCs, small caliber ACs, and ERLL.

And I have problems with River City because it is too good against LRMs (other long ranged weapons are not nearly as hurt by maps than LRMs). If you haven't seen by now, I want a rework of LRMs that makes them useful in all maps, makes them harder to hard counter (still have some soft counters), but removes as much of their pub stomping ability as possible. This would mean a loss in raw power but strengths added in other ways.

Edit: Of course ECM needs to also be changed from such a hard counter to LRMs as well.

Edited by Noth, 08 March 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Noth, on 08 March 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

In a good balance, I would be just as afraid of those I am of LRMs, and that is just not the case. On LRMs they scare the crap out of me or are useless against me. If I have a choice of stepping out for a LRM barrage from an LRM boat or stepping out in front of a PPC boat, I choose the PPC boat every time unless I'm in ECM coverage. Because of how easy they are to counter but how powerful they can be against unorganized teams, they are broken. It's not just because they are too strong. Please read my very first post in this thread where I describe what should be done to something that can pug stomp easily but is nigh useless in competitive and team play.

Is there a weapon in the game that isn't good against disorganized teams? Maybe the flamer or MG?

[Noth]

Royalewithcheese, on 08 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Is there a weapon in the game that isn't good against disorganized teams? Maybe the flamer or MG?

No other weapon has the pug stomp potential of the LRM. It has the highest DPS, won't miss against players in the open (even the best player can miss miss with direct fire weapon. This is why it is such a strong pubstomping weapon. Besides that is only half the problem. They are nigh useless against organized teams, and that is also an issue.

Edited by Noth, 08 March 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Noth, on 08 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

No other weapon has the pug stomp potential of the LRM. It has the highest DPS, won't miss against players in the open (even the best player can miss miss with direct fire weapon. This is why it is such a strong pubstomping weapon. Besides that is only half the problem. They are nigh useless against organized teams, and that is also an issue.

In my pugs, I generally don't see the LRM stomping. The scary long-range robots are stuff like the 3D poptarts and 4-6 PPC Stalkers. Some ppl try out LRMs, but I don't think I've seen them be all that successful post-patch. Don't get me wrong, you definitely have to respect the LRM/Artemis now, but IMO it's mostly useful as a suppression tool.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 08 March 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Noth]

Royalewithcheese, on 08 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

In my pugs, I generally don't see the LRM stomping. The scary long-range robots are stuff like the 3D poptarts and 4-6 PPC Stalkers. Some ppl try out LRMs, but I don't think I've seen them be all that successful post-patch. Don't get me wrong, you definitely have to respect the LRM/Artemis now, but IMO it's mostly useful as a suppression tool.

I still see them. It's typically in games with no ECM, but because ECM is still there you do see less of it, but is because ECM is such a hardcounter to it. Again, I want less hardcounters, more soft counters to make LRMs viable in teams and competitive matches, but not overpowering in matches matches without ECM on as many maps as possible.

[C E Dwyer]

People complaining about LRM's now

when the clans arrive, with superiour guidance systems

what will you be like then..

[Allister Rathe]

I think most people take the wrong approach to LRM's. A lot go for big, slow, stompy 'Mech's like a Catapult with a tiny engine, a Stalker, or an Awesome so they can load up as many missiles as humanly possible so when their attack lands, they devastate their enemy in one go. The issue with that strategy as a lot of people have pointed out is it leaves you very vulnerable to close range 'Mechs and especially lights. Not only that, but you become nullified by cover very easily because most enemies you're firing at are significantly more agile.

The only 'Mechs I have ever used LRM's on was an Awesome pre-ECM in the closed beta, with 3 LRM-15's with Artemis (which was nasty good) and nowadays my favorite, the Trebuchet 5N. I run an XL 280 engine for a max speed of 99.8 with speed tweak, 3 Medium Lasers, a Tag, and two LRM-15's with about a thousand rounds of ammunition. It's an incredibly mobile, skirmishing fire support medium that can find avenues of fire without cover quickly and drop missiles on his enemies heads to support friendly brawlers. Not only that but he comes equipped with his own Tag laser for those pesky ECM 'Mechs. 3 Medium Lasers isn't ideal for close range combat but it gives you enough sting to fight off your opponents while finding a friend to help you out.

Just like playing against the LRM boat, the strategy you use when piloting one will vastly change the outcome of your matches. I'm 38 and 9 so far in my 5N over 21 matches (pub drops, small sample size, but still). It's by far my favorite 'Mech to play besides my Spider-5D, that jumpy little pest.

[RenegadeMaster]

I have noticed a lack of ECM in PUG matches last week and this week, where nobody would bring ECM in 7 out of 10 matches, and there were rarely 2 mechs with ECM. That certainly makes LRMs seem more powerful.

Not everyone should have to bring ECM, TAG, and/or PPCs, but that is a variety of LRM counter measures to choose from.


Lack of PUG ECM aside - If LRMs are raining on your or other people's MWO PUG parades: Change your personal strategy.
I have some suggested strategies listed below. Otherwise, it is quite simply insanity, defined as doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.

With LRMs at 600-1000m range: It seems that there's 4-8 seconds to get to "cover", which isn't always just a huge hill, and that means you shouldn't have to be in cover all match to avoid LRMs. Cover can be buildings, elevation, a pit, etc.
If you are in a light or medium mech in this situation: That should be plenty of time to find some sort of cover, with the possible exception of Alpine. If you're too slow, then you're building your mech wrong.
If you're standing still in this scenario: Don't do that unless you have cover nearby!
If you're in a Heavy or Assault mech: Either take the hits with beefed up armor or get a bigger engine to go faster.

With LRMs at 190-400m range and they are raining on you: That's bad positioning - Get in their min range of 190m & blast away, get distance/cover, or just fire back until they retreat!

What it really comes down to is knowing the terrain and finding "paths" that aren't in the wide open or have cover nearby. Good thing we have Training Grounds now

Edited by RenegadeMaster, 08 March 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[Fut]

Noth, on 08 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

You missed where I said that on Alpine to do that you often have to circle so far that the battle is often decided before you get into position.

Oh, sorry. I seriously did miss when you said that.

I guess it comes down to finding a balance between going too far out to flank (if you're going out far enough that 8 'Mechs are destroyed during your trip, you're either incredibly slow and shouldn't be the one flanking, or you went way too far out - a few times over) and not going out far enough (and risking detection by those boats you're attempting to circle).

Experience and Practice is huge. You have to try things out a few times before you find what works.
The thing I love about this game is that you have to think things out before you do them, assess how well you performed after the fact, and adjust your tactics accordingly.

Allister Rathe, on 08 March 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

I think most people take the wrong approach to LRM's. A lot go for big, slow, stompy 'Mech's like a Catapult with a tiny engine, a Stalker, or an Awesome so they can load up as many missiles as humanly possible so when their attack lands, they devastate their enemy in one go. The issue with that strategy as a lot of people have pointed out is it leaves you very vulnerable to close range 'Mechs and especially lights. Not only that, but you become nullified by cover very easily because most enemies you're firing at are significantly more agile.

Exactly.

My hopes are that the Dev's continue to tweak the game in a way that makes balanced 'Mechs the better choice. Sure Boats will always do a butt-load of damage when they hit, but they won't be the go-to for most people.

Edited by Fut, 08 March 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Mercules]

Noth, on 08 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

They are nigh useless against organized teams, and that is also an issue.

I do not believe this to be true. That is why I don't agree with your solutions as they seem built off faulty premises.


There are too many factors at work to just say that LRMs need to be redone. ECM, SRMS, and other things need to be dealt with as well at the same time. Someone not understanding how to play does not make a weapon "overpowered" either. It means the person needs to learn how to play.

PUGs get killed by teamwork. PUGs get killed by focused fire. PUGs get killed by standing in the open while I pop shots into them with PPCs or ignoring me coring their back or firing LRMs at me under 180m or SRMs at me over 270M.... You can't balance a weapon around poor gameplay or it will be too powerful for good gameplay.

[Jakob Knight]

Major Scumbag, on 08 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

What?? Give me a direct fire weapon with auto lock and auto hit.

Hmm. Large Laser? Put the crosshair on the target and pull the trigger. Behold! Instant and automatic hit.

Or, perhaps, you can tell me what would stop that laser from hitting something that is under the crosshairs after you pull the trigger? Is there a counter-system that will prevent the beam from hitting, or a chance for the target to step aside from the beam before it strikes, or maybe another system that will degrade the damage from the hit? Perhaps, you have to figure out where your target will be a full five to ten seconds before you pull the trigger for it to be worth firing? Or, of course, that a player who simply wants to 'spray and pray' (like so many new players) will have absolutely no chance to hit their target with a laser?

Case closed, I'd say.

[Noth]

Mercules, on 08 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I do not believe this to be true. That is why I don't agree with your solutions as they seem built off faulty premises.

Since Closed beta, they have been considered near useless and used rarely in the competitive teams. If you watched any of the competitive games you'd see little to none pack LRMs because they are too easy to counter.

I'll take good game design balance for a game such as LoL (that actively redesigns champs to becomes less of pugstompers and more competitive in the competitive games) over what you say. If what you say was true, LoL would do what they do. They prove you can balance something around poor gameplay and have it not be too powerful in good gameplay. It just takes more than changing numbers.

Oh and about the minimum range. Say that when Clans come in and they have LRMs with no Minimum range. I'm looking towards the future and ways to stop balance issues then while fixing teh ones we have now.

Edited by Noth, 08 March 2013 - 12:04 PM.