400 replies to this topic

[Fut]

Windsaw, on 07 March 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

But LRM boating is not the problem.
Even alrounder mechs with some LRMs are crippled so much when the enemies have ECM for example.
LRMs are not light equipment. They weight quite a lot.

Depends what "problem" you're trying to address.
To the people who are saying that LRMs are overpowered (again) because "one volley" can core a 'Mech, I say that it's not the LRMs causing the "problem", it's the fact that their one volley is from 5xLRM15s - meaning that their one volley is 75 missiles. 75 Missiles should be able to inflict an insane amount of damage, it's 35 tonnes of weaponry (not to mention ammo).

Windsaw, on 07 March 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

I tell you, I would love to keep the LRM 10 in a Centurion for example, but a single AMS reduces its effectiveness by half (to med-laser level) and ECM totally negates it. And that does not even take other anti-LRM behaviour into account.

For these risks, LRMs are simply too heavy.
Unless you boat. Then it may be rock paper scissors, but at least if you get the opportunity, you rule.

Which IMO makes LRMs pretty broken.
I would consider LRMs fine if all LRM types from 5, 10, 15 and 20 have advantages to be useful and at the same time boating is discouraged.
None of this is happening now.

I use a single LRM15+Artemis+Tag, I can assure you that it's a useful weapon system.
The trick is not giving into the mentality that "LRMs are Easy-Mode, just sit back and let them fly".

ECM doesn't totally negate LRMs, you just need to counter that ECM 'Mech with your TAG (or a teammates TAG if you're so lucky). No matter how often I get to do it, I never get tired of lighting an ECM-Atlas up with my TAG, then sending a few volleys of LRMs at them. Usually takes them a few moments to realize that they're not invincible. Hilarious stuff.

Anyhow, with all of your comments here it really sounds like you think LRMs aren't effective enough.
Do you think they need a buff?

Jakob Knight, on 07 March 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Seriously. The players who never learned to fight beyond FPS will always feel the sky is falling because they can't understand LRMs (and don't want to). LRMs are fine, and that they might actually start being used again after a period where everyone was running ECM units (and a good number still are) is actually a good thing, not a bad. It means people are finally starting to use what was supposed to be a primary weapon in the game.

Remember, LRMs have the most counters of -any- system in the game, and is the only one that can be rendered absolutely useless by simply getting into typical combat ranges. If you expect a weapon system facing so many disadvantages to not pay for itself when it overcomes everything against it, then I'd say you need to reexamine your own standards for what is OP and what isn't.

Oh man. Had to quote this because it rings so ******* true.
Seriously, everybody who thinks LRMs are overpowered needs to read that comment a few times over. Let it sink in a bit.

Edited by Fut, 07 March 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[Mercules]

Znail, on 07 March 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

I haven't noticed any increase in LRM boats, but I have noticed an increase in mechs with 1-2 LRMs. I think comes from a marked decrease in AMS usage since ECM showed up. Before ECM so did most people use AMS on their mechs and thus if a couple of them were near each other so were it useless to use a single LRM launcher.

1-2 LRM 15 makes for a pretty good investment in a mech now days. You aren't as locked in the arty role as a boat, but even a single LRM 15 do a lot of damage if you get a nice angle to hit mechs that have no cover from your position.

With my favorite fire support mech a Treb I use an LRM 10, PPC&TAG in one arm, and 3 MLs in the other. TAG and shoot them with the PPC while the LRM is locking and then fire. Seems to work well.

Noth, on 07 March 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

And again, that is pretty typical to see happen in Pug games. This just leads to LRMs being obnoxiously strong in pugs and nigh useless in competitive matches. that is a broken weapons system.

You can not claim a weapon system is broken because one group of players is unable to understand it. Educate the players don't change the weapon. They are not useless in competitive matches. In fact I've seen a Cataphract drive the enemy team into cover while his team was flanking with nothing more than an LRM 5 in his head. The warning made all those "pro" players seek cover instead of trying to see what it was about.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I don't see major problems when I run my LRM 15 x 2 Centurion.

But I think that's the thing, most of these weapon system problems don't start to show until you get to where you are using 4+ of them on one mech.

I do also notice that people are getting away from using the ECM umbrella on their team. There was such a lack of LRM's being used that people have gotten cocky about it. Now that they have shown up again, when they move away from the Atlas with ECM they are getting lit up.

Lastly, AMS. Mount it if you dislike LRM's. It helps.

[Suki]

Agent of Change, on 07 March 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

The second best defense an LRM boat has against competent opponents is at least some form of close range firepower, the best defense he has is a friend willing to support him.

you know what works awesome, if you have two LRM'rs you space them 180m apart, if you get inside my minimum my buddy ligths you up with lrms and i hit you with lasers. If I don't have a buddy, I'll fight but often it's just to soften you up in the hopes someone comes to save my ***.

damn, our secret out in the open!!!
We tried it in the 4 man premaid - 3 LRM Stalkers + 1 LRM D-DC standing in pairs 300m apart. 180m is too close for circling light, too often he is in the dead zone of both teams. Rather fun tactic.

[Hopdevil]

Nightcrept, on 07 March 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

There is not one weapon other then say tag that takes any amount of skill to use in this game. That is why all us old guys play this game.

However, with that being said there is a big difference between a skilled lrm or other pilot then a non-skilled. And in a lot of ways it is harder to use Lrm's well then any other weapon.

Do you mean Narc?

[The Mech behind you]

Ya ok it's LRM Online again. That's what had to happen after more and more people dropped the ECM and switched from their lights to heavier mechs after the lagfix. Now we get hammered by LRMs into oblivion for a few weeks till we see 6-10 ECMs per match again or a lot of lights that swarm the LRM boats.

[Mackman]

Literally the only time I die to LRM's is when I'm a.) impatient or b.) stupid. It's when i take my Stalker out too far from cover, or try to run across the water while plainly seeing missiles coming from the enemy mechs. I don't get frustrated at the LRMs: I get frustrated by my own stupidity in putting myself in such a bad situation. When missiles start going through cover, then I'll join you. Until then, you may want to adapt.

[Suki]

Gen0, on 07 March 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

You've obviously never played a PUG, smart people are only as useful a their ability to communicate and thus co-ordinate. That fact makes PUG's look very VERY dumb. So again this goes back to the great big failing of this game's communication: voice in-game that is actually used over TS etc in PUGs.

Man, did You read all I wrote or just the first and the last words?
I'm almost always PUG, sometimes with my friend.
So You tell that I'm all wrong and?:
- PUG always hold the lock on the target for LRMboats?
- PUG always tank for you so you can help them by softening targets?
- PUG always focus fire on ECM targets fo not disabling Your precios LRMs?
- etc, etc.

You sure we're playing the same game?

Edited by Suki, 07 March 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[hammerreborn]

I call shenangins on this whole thread. I've been told repeatedly that I'm an ***** because I don't believe ECM makes mechs immune to LRMs, and now people are saying LRMs are good again? BS!

[Stygian Steel]

ok heres what i'll say about lrms, their fire support, that means they do reallywell when their support teamates that are engaged in fighting, if your getting killed by lrms its usually either because
a) your not using cover or were green enough to run out into a part of the map where there wasn't any cover
you were fighting a few mechs from the enemy team while their lrm boats rained death upon you when you were to busy worrying about that scout or assault blasting you in the face at 100m's
there are times when both of those happen to me (a lot actually) but if neither of those are happening then guess what, either im in cover letting the enemy waste ammo or they just dont have a lock and can;t fire on me anyhow

[Gallowglas]

Sheraf, on 07 March 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

You can move from cover to cover, and always make sure that there is a closest cover to fall back in case LRM blocks out the sun above you

Okay, sure, on SOME maps you can hug cover in an attempt to close the distance. However, how many teams have you gone against that are going to ignore that your entire force is trying to close with your LRM boats? And, as Agent of Change pointed out, there's a clear counter-tactic besides, you know, the fact that the LRM Stalker or Atlas is usually less-than-defenseless up close: simply have one other mech support. Even another LRM boat can do that so long as they're spaced far enough away.

I'm not precisely saying that LRM's are broken. However, those suggesting the easy fix is just to hide behind cover and the problem magically goes away probably haven't played against very good opponents. A good team usually incorporates 2-3 LRM boats these days and that's not by coincidence.

[Nth Adonis]

I agree there are ways to organize a resistance to counter LRMs but that's only really possible for premades so again Im only talking about PUGS!!

[XIRUSPHERE]

Without LRM the game would degenerate back into nothing but furballs with splats and atlas leading the way. Then people would bemoan any weapon that was not sub 500 meter as being OP. LRM can be countered and I can't tell you the number of times I have been able to slip behind lines and rip a boat apart because they don't stick with the main force and don't carry proper defensive armaments. For LRM to work to great effect you need team play.

Despite the buffs missiles are still pretty damn easy to avoid and you can mitigate just how much damage they are doing. Everyone eventually gets into a situation where they get smacked with two 60 volleys and either die or become a zombie. For those cases I can only advocate that you watch the vector the missiles are coming in from and if you have no choice face hug the biggest ******* on their team you can and get the missiles to splash him too. I have watched full health assaults gets chewed to pieces by putting them between myself and the barrage.

The one real reason to boat in this game beyond anything is the harvest of tears, I have never had more hate or more people willing to suicide into me than when I am playing LRM and it should stay that way.

[Noth]

Dixie Normiss, on 07 March 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

I agree there are ways to organize a resistance to counter LRMs but that's only really possible for premades so again Im only talking about PUGS!!

They won't listen to the fact that PUGs are easy prey to LRMs. They just focus on the fact that they or their premade can make them useless and think that makes it OK.

[Khobai]

Quote

75 Missiles should be able to inflict an insane amount of damage, it's 35 tonnes of weaponry (not to mention ammo).

Disagree. Five LRM15s would barely even scratch the paint on an Atlas in tabletop. The fact they core an Atlas in one volley in MWO means something is seriously wrong with LRMs. Atlases are supposed to tank damage. They should not get one or two shotted by any weapon configuration in the game. Period.

Yes you can hide behind cover. But I would argue the entire point of Assault mechs is to cross open ground while tanking serious damage. If theyre unable to do that, theyre undeserving of the "assault" moniker. Why don't we just call them "turrets" instead? That's closer to their current role in the game.

Assault mechs are actually TERRIBLE at assaulting right now. Light mechs are insanely better at tanking damage. Not only because players waste a lot of shots trying to hit them but also because their speed and small size spreads the damage over multiple locations. While an Atlas almost gets hit in the center torso with everything. You can torso twist, but that only partially mitigates the damage. Right now speed is way better than armor and that needs to change IMO.

The biggest issue IMO is the pinpoint damage. Being able to put all those shots in a location of your choice is incredibly unbalancing. And it pertains to LRMs as well since artemis currently allows all those LRMs to go into the Atlas' center torso.

Edited by Khobai, 07 March 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Khobai, on 07 March 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Disagree. Five LRM15s would barely even scratch the paint on an Atlas in tabletop. The fact they core an Atlas in one volley in MWO means something is seriously wrong with LRMs.

Atlases are supposed to tank serious amounts of damage. They should not get one or two shotted by any weapon configuration in the game. Period.

It seems silly that 5 LRM 15's at optimal range with TAG and Artemis wouldn't scratch a mech. Think you might want to revisit that thought process as it relates to MW:O.

Especially since that Stalker had to lumber out into the open and not die getting in range to do that.

Also why doesn't your Atlas have ECM and 2 AMS anyway?

[Khobai]

Quote

It seems silly that 5 LRM 15's at optimal range with TAG and Artemis wouldn't scratch a mech. Think you might want to revisit that thought process as it relates to MW:O.

Again, in Battletech it would barely scratch an Atlas. The point of LRMs is to crit seek and soften mechs up for armor punching weapons. LRMs are not supposed to armor punch or deliver killing blows themselves.

1) miss chance (probably only have a 50%-60% chance of hitting in the first place)
2) cluster table rolls (maybe 70% of the missiles hit with artemis)
3) damage is spread out in 5-point clusters (only about 20% of those shots will hit the CT)

In tabletop an Atlas would probably only take 35-45 damage from five LRM15s, which would be spread out over multiple locations. In other words, barely scratched. It would certainly not have ANY exposed internals....

Whereas in MWO, with artemis, LRMs can core an Atlas in one volley. Easily kill it in two. Its ridiculous. Anyone who doesn't see the problem with that is either heavily biased in favor of LRMs or completely jaded.

Edited by Khobai, 07 March 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Faster travel time. Less damage. Less maneuverable.

Balance them with every other weapon in the game and they'll be a viable weapon, not a boat/don't boat tool.

[Khobai]

This is how I'd fix LRMs-

1) ECM no longer grants stealth.
2) Add Null Signature System to game, so if you want stealth, you can still get it, but with all the downsides it comes with.
3) Increase LRM speed.
4) Give LRMs the equivalent of a cluster hit table, where a random number of missiles will hit the target (the rest just miss)
5) Instead of tightening the spread on LRMs so they all hit the same location, Artemis/NARC will simply give them a bonus on the cluster hit table

So that will lower the damage on LRMs but also get rid of the fact ECM hard counters them. So the game will revolve less around ECM which is a good thing.

[KharnZor]

Lrm's have always been a threat. Even with all the tunning they've had. When ecm came out sure the numbers of people using them dropped but they were still there and now we are at a point where there are ways to get around ecm with tag and ppc's.
Dont want to be killed by them? Then dont present yourself as a target and move around. Mobility is key.