188 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Shadowsword8, on 08 March 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

This is horsecrap. A poll IS representative of the majority (minus the degree of inaccuracy associated with sample size). Denying this is like claiming that everyone who did'nt vote approve of ECM, which is behond stupid. It's even denying the democratic system, since presidents are elected on the results of a huge poll.

Most players dislike the current ECM. If you can't even accept that, your reasonning has no objectivity from the start.

This is for sure. 1100 people sample is plenty, heck CNN and FOX use 1000 people samples to drive polling numbers for the entire US population. Basic stuff people!!!

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 08 March 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Teralitha]

Lyrik, on 08 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

No, they just ignored whiners like you. I like ECM.

D-DC are countered by PPC, Ravens are killed by lazors (thx state rewind) and Cicadas ...pfff

All the LRM spam ingame just means one thing: we need MORE Mechs with ECM. Or a nerf to Tag ;-)

Negative. It means LRM mechanic needs an overhaul. Too many people dont understand the underlying issues of the game balance and mechanics post opinions just like this.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

If ECM is fine why is it the only item that has like 5 counters and counting?

And with so many counters it only weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 slots.

And PGI was forced to limit the amount of mechs that could mount it.

I understand people can kill people using ECM. I'm not saying it's an invulnerability shield.

But because you can beat it does not mean it is not overpowered with regards to the entirety of the game.

[Stone Profit]

CLearly

Shadowpunisher, on 07 March 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

It has been 3 months since ECM has been implemented.

Three months of frustration playing against an obviously OP equipment, requiring NO skill at all to use but a lot of unfunny efforts to counter.

Three months trying to make YOU, PGI, change opinion and balance this equipment.

Now I'm tired, tired to see that YOU are just ignoring us, that their are still a majority of players unhappy with how ECM is working.

But it's fine YOU WON ! LRMS are now more imbalanced, Streaks are still too powerful against light mechs, ECM rule the game, and you are manipulating us with your Consumables changes surprisingly made in 1 day when it is something that need weeks to balance ...





But I'm not resigned, I will still continue to say that the game is imbalanced, but not here, because their are too many things that need to change [ECM, Missiles, Information sharing, Consumables, ...]

Clearly not tired of complaining, as this entire post is one big complaint and you merely needed more forum space to *****, but you should realize they ARE fixing ecm. The TAG buffs. The ppc ecm effects. And more to come. Just because they didnt fix it the way YOU want (Que pics of child temper tantrum here) does not mean it isnt being "fixed".

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Stone Profit, on 08 March 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

CLearly

Clearly not tired of complaining, as this entire post is one big complaint and you merely needed more forum space to *****, but you should realize they ARE fixing ecm. The TAG buffs. The ppc ecm effects. And more to come. Just because they didnt fix it the way YOU want (Que pics of child temper tantrum here) does not mean it isnt being "fixed".

Fixing a broken item by adding new items or changing current items is not fixing an item.

That is just adding in band-**** which mess up game balance, because ECM is not present in every game, and in some games you may see 5+ mechs mounting it.

[MaddMaxx]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 08 March 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

This is for sure. 1100 people sample is plenty, heck CNN and FOX use 1000 people samples to drive polling numbers for the entire US population. Basic stuff people!!!

Nope. Pretty sure a 1K Poll would be for a local look (state) into any one matter. There is no way 1000 people are representative of 40+ million.

That would be like saying 1000 people is all that is required to elect the President? Why bothering to waste time asking everyone who wants to be heard?

[Mystere]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 March 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

But because you can beat it does not mean it is not overpowered with regards to the entirety of the game.

Actually, and this is just a guess, the fact that it can be beaten with mixed load outs and teamwork is the reason why PGI probably thinks the balance is "good enough" and that only minor tweaks are need around ECM.

At least that is the same though process I am going with.

[Teralitha]

Thuzel, on 08 March 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

This is exactly right. The real problem is shallow, repetitive game play lacking any real tactics of note. Ever watch the 8 mans? They typically center around just a few concepts: focus fire, limiting exposure, and scouting. I hardly ever see anything more involved than that. Nothing terribly complicated or advanced in any case.

But the truth is that this is a symptom of two things:

1. Smaller teams and maps. Short ranges and only 8 players lends itself to brawling and limited maneuvers.
2. Unbalanced items. Why should anyone try to play the hard way when it's been made easy? Just use the obviously overpowered items and play on their strength. ECM is a great example of that, and you see a lot of it because of that.

Now, 1 will be taken care of. We're getting larger maps and teams. But 2 is still a problem. Just look at indirect fire with LRM's as an example. ECM has marginalized indirect fire and turned 90% of MWO into a direct fire game where even mechs that should be capable of fantastic indirect fire support now tend to resort to self-tagging targets and direct fire instead.

Why should we care? Because it takes varied game play and curbstomps it. Every time it gets unbalanced, we tend to see less real game play and more of whatever tactic takes advantage of that item. SSRM2, ECM, Gauss (before it was re-balanced), and LRMs are examples of that and it gets incredibly boring. If I wanted something like that, I'd go out and play any one of the dozens of FPS out there...

But I don't want that, and you probably don't want that either. I want Mechwarrior. With tactics and skill and fun. What we've got right now is neat, but it's only half of that...

Agree with your statemtents.

Like I said...
Things that make it shallow/boring/stale/repetitive

ECM
Base Caping Feature.
Poor LRM mechanics.(and I mean bad.. like - needs to go back to the drawing board bad.)
Overpowered weapons.
Overall speed and manueverability of mechs in general is a little too slow.
Map designs.

Set these things straight, and we will have tactics skill and fun(and diversity, variety, true role warefare, true information warefare, and so on....)

Paul if your reading this, Id be happy to consult with you on how to properly design and balance the features listed above.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MaddMaxx, on 08 March 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Nope. Pretty sure a 1K Poll would be for a local look (state) into any one matter. There is no way 1000 people are representative of 40+ million.

That would be like saying 1000 people is all that is required to elect the President? Why bothering to waste time asking everyone who wants to be heard?

Actually 1k or less are used for most of those presidential polls. Because they are only polling based on electoral college votes and district sizes. They also know ahead of time which places tend to go democratic or republican.

My father in law ran for sentate, so I had to learn a lot about these things.

A 1k poll is more than enough to get a sample from a game of this size and scope.

[MaddMaxx]

Teralitha, on 08 March 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Negative. It means LRM mechanic needs an overhaul. Too many people dont understand the underlying issues of the game balance and mechanics post opinions just like this.

And your years of "understanding the underlying issues of the game balance and mechanics" is supposed to placate everyone you deem stupid? Do us all a favor. Send your resume to PGI today, they need you on the Team dude. (Holy Smokes Batman)

[Teralitha]

Stone Profit, on 08 March 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

CLearly

Clearly not tired of complaining, as this entire post is one big complaint and you merely needed more forum space to *****, but you should realize they ARE fixing ecm. The TAG buffs. The ppc ecm effects. And more to come. Just because they didnt fix it the way YOU want (Que pics of child temper tantrum here) does not mean it isnt being "fixed".

Their doing it all wrong. Its not anyones way, its just simply... bad.

[Stone Profit]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 March 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Fixing a broken item by adding new items or changing current items is not fixing an item.

That is just adding in band-**** which mess up game balance, because ECM is not present in every game, and in some games you may see 5+ mechs mounting it.

Its not broken. It doesnt need fixing. You missed the entire point of my thread. Good job.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mystere, on 08 March 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Actually, and this is just a guess, the fact that it can be beaten with mixed load outs and teamwork is the reason why PGI probably thinks the balance is "good enough" and that only minor tweaks are need around ECM.

At least that is the same though process I am going with.

That is a bad thought process with regards to game balance.

Just because the Goons or whoever don't have an issue with ECM does not mean the item is fine.

Also the fact that tournaments like RHOD are forcing group make-ups to limit ECM and cheese build stacking is very telling.

Someone being able to overcome an overpowered item does not mean it's not overpowered,

They've also introduced something new to try and curb ECM in seemingly every or every other patch since it's implementation. That shows a concern for the item. Problem is you should always look at the item itself, and not try and fix it by changing 5, 6 or 7 other items instead.

[Stone Profit]

Teralitha, on 08 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Their doing it all wrong. Its not anyones way, its just simply... bad.

Aww, qq, they no fix ecm MY WAY! IT BAD! ME NO CAN ADAPT! sheesh...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Stone Profit, on 08 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Aww, qq, they no fix ecm MY WAY! IT BAD! ME NO CAN ADAPT! sheesh...

Can we show some maturity? Teralitha posts well thought out replies. If you disagree, that's fine. But that just shows an inability to logically debate your point.

[Teralitha]

MaddMaxx, on 08 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

And your years of "understanding the underlying issues of the game balance and mechanics" is supposed to placate everyone you deem stupid? Do us all a favor. Send your resume to PGI today, they need you on the Team dude. (Holy Smokes Batman)

I already have offered my expertise for consultation on balance issues a few times. They ignore me like they do everyone else. Damn shame, with my help, this game could have been 100 times better.

[Mystere]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

They've also introduced something new to try and curb ECM in seemingly every or every other patch since it's implementation. That shows a concern for the item.

Hence the though process that I was guessing at.


************************
To everyone,

Have any you ever been involved in AAA game development, specifically in the area of designing game balance? I am asking because I would really like to know what thought processes are actually used.

Edited by Mystere, 08 March 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Mystere]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Actually 1k or less are used for most of those presidential polls. Because they are only polling based on electoral college votes and district sizes. They also know ahead of time which places tend to go democratic or republican.

My father in law ran for sentate, so I had to learn a lot about these things.

But the polls you are talking about are based on proper statistical methods. The polls in this forum, on the other hand, are not. Take a look at my comment here in this same thread.

[Lyrik]

Teralitha, on 08 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I already have offered my expertise for consultation on balance issues a few times. They ignore me like they do everyone else. Damn shame, with my help, this game could have been 100 times better.

Rofl. How about trying to help Blizzard balancing StarCraft ? :-P I'm sure they need your expertise .... oh wait

With bettter servers, state rewind for all weapons, PPC emp and Tag, EMC is balanced. It is true that the item is powerful for its tonnage/critslots. But that was intended from PGI. So the costs to install it are small and it will be used on the battlefield.

Yes, I think that PGI wants ECM to be a central pillar of the information warfare and tactics on the battlefield. And I also think that PGI doesn't want any other hard counter to ECM than ECM itself.

And yes, I also want an ECM hunchback

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mystere, on 08 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Actually, the poll in question (and any poll in this forum for that matter) is not really valid because it is based solely on the views of people who bothered to respond.

I don't think you really understand what you said here. I'm at work and really don't have the time to explain why this is wrong in any meaningful manner. But it is wrong.

I've never been a developer. But I've been doing Beta's for 15 years.

And the ones that have gone the best involve the Dev's communicating constantly (not done here) and the thought process on item balance that works best is "If an item is not balanced by itself, the item itself needs to be tuned".

Not "If Orb of Suffering isn't balanced, let me go add the Orb of Other Kinds of Suffering, change the Orb of Awesome, and adjust the Orb of Jimmy Rustlin' to try and fix it".

Everquest made a mistake like this. With regards to tanking and taunt. Instead of fixing how hate was generated, they kept adding new proc effects and items. But it would fix one tanking class, but not the other two, because the underlying mechanics were still broken.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 08 March 2013 - 08:55 AM.